This post is not ment to turn into a "This tank is better than this tank." I don't want to be told what class makes a good tank.
My wife is new to MMORPG's, and she will be the premier tank in our group due to her wanting to be a Fighter, but she will be going crusader as a sub, and paladin after that. She is set in this so I'm not going to change her mind.
Needless to say she needs to learn how to tank properly, and I have had very little if you could call it any experience as a tank. I'd like to know how to go about teaching her how to tank. Thanks ahead of time.
- Forums
- EverQuest II
- General Discussion
- Training a Tank
Training a TankFollow
Basically.. let her do the pulling, make sure she uses the Taunt Ability when needed. Make sure she realizes that she isn't suppose to be the highest DPS EVER! But she does need to get as much AC as possible so as to better mitigate the damage she is going to sustain.
Just to add a few things pre-level 20 (don't know post, yet)...
1. Also, she should use the other abilities like Shout and Anger, etc. Not sure about strategy on which to use first (still learning the tanking aspects within EQ2) but here's a couple of scenarios:
1.a Your group fights a single group designated mob. Taunt/Anger is fine for this encounter.
1.b Your group fights a pack of mobs. Shout would do well here to ensure that all the mobs in the group are only attacking the tank. If you don't have a main assist and one of the mobs stray to another party member, taunt or any other ability should bring it right back.
2. Assault is a nifty (IMO anyway... hehehe) AoE attack to help in keeping group mob hate. But it also affects mobs outside of your engagement. So your wife should be mindful of the battlefield and use this ability to her discretion. Would suck to have an add in a challenging battle (not that I speak from personal experience or anything, oh no!).
3. After AC, she should focus on upgrading hate management skills; Taunt, Shout, Anger, Hold the Line, Intervene, Soldier's Stance etc. Then if funds permit, offensive skills and weapons.
You two can check out the official fighter forums which should have good strategies from Fighter -> Paladin.
I'm not certain, but if your group can coordinate group HO's, maybe she can get more hate when she completes the HO with Taunt/Shout/Anger/etc. to help with hate management? This I don't know. But it would be nice to get a little extra spike of hate this way.
Other than that and her finding her own timing with her hate keeping routine, it's up to the group to help her with hate management.
1. Also, she should use the other abilities like Shout and Anger, etc. Not sure about strategy on which to use first (still learning the tanking aspects within EQ2) but here's a couple of scenarios:
1.a Your group fights a single group designated mob. Taunt/Anger is fine for this encounter.
1.b Your group fights a pack of mobs. Shout would do well here to ensure that all the mobs in the group are only attacking the tank. If you don't have a main assist and one of the mobs stray to another party member, taunt or any other ability should bring it right back.
2. Assault is a nifty (IMO anyway... hehehe) AoE attack to help in keeping group mob hate. But it also affects mobs outside of your engagement. So your wife should be mindful of the battlefield and use this ability to her discretion. Would suck to have an add in a challenging battle (not that I speak from personal experience or anything, oh no!).
3. After AC, she should focus on upgrading hate management skills; Taunt, Shout, Anger, Hold the Line, Intervene, Soldier's Stance etc. Then if funds permit, offensive skills and weapons.
You two can check out the official fighter forums which should have good strategies from Fighter -> Paladin.
I'm not certain, but if your group can coordinate group HO's, maybe she can get more hate when she completes the HO with Taunt/Shout/Anger/etc. to help with hate management? This I don't know. But it would be nice to get a little extra spike of hate this way.
Other than that and her finding her own timing with her hate keeping routine, it's up to the group to help her with hate management.
1. Your tank should never be the puller. It's your pullers job to decide what to attack, and what to attack next.
2. Your tank should NEVER be the Main Assist. And I emphasize this. This should normally be the pullers job. No one should ever be /assisting your tank. It's the tank's job to make sure that every mob is attacking him/her and soley him/her. (There are exceptions. But pre-20 this is law. Post 20 you will probably start getting other sub-tank classes off-tanking certain mobs) But if a mob splits from the crowd and goes for a healer/caster, it's the tank that has to disengage from the main mob and go get there attention. The last thing you need is people to be assiting the tank while he is doing this.
3. Pay attention. Sounds simple, but damn a lot of tanks dont do this. They figure "Hell, this mob is on me so everything is ok!". They don't realize that a few strayed and are now on your casters/someone_who_shouldn't_be_getting_hit. If you can't pay perfect attention, you will fail as a tank.
4. As said above. Build your aggroe building skills. (Taunt/shout/Anger...etc et al). Also note, damage skills (Mangle/Wild Swing/Kick) will also gain aggroe.
5. Time your taunts. A Taunt can break a HO. Make sure you got good aggroe before these go off. And please, if a HO moment comes up where a Taunt is part of the chain, ONLY the tank should us it.
2. Your tank should NEVER be the Main Assist. And I emphasize this. This should normally be the pullers job. No one should ever be /assisting your tank. It's the tank's job to make sure that every mob is attacking him/her and soley him/her. (There are exceptions. But pre-20 this is law. Post 20 you will probably start getting other sub-tank classes off-tanking certain mobs) But if a mob splits from the crowd and goes for a healer/caster, it's the tank that has to disengage from the main mob and go get there attention. The last thing you need is people to be assiting the tank while he is doing this.
3. Pay attention. Sounds simple, but damn a lot of tanks dont do this. They figure "Hell, this mob is on me so everything is ok!". They don't realize that a few strayed and are now on your casters/someone_who_shouldn't_be_getting_hit. If you can't pay perfect attention, you will fail as a tank.
4. As said above. Build your aggroe building skills. (Taunt/shout/Anger...etc et al). Also note, damage skills (Mangle/Wild Swing/Kick) will also gain aggroe.
5. Time your taunts. A Taunt can break a HO. Make sure you got good aggroe before these go off. And please, if a HO moment comes up where a Taunt is part of the chain, ONLY the tank should us it.
11 posts
I'm still new to HO chances, so for that aspect, I'm not taking it into consideration, but, as tank, I'm usually puller and MA, despite the previous person's saying. I usually pull, with either a taunt or arrow, then taunt, and if it's a group, sometimes I'll pull with shout, the group assists me, and stays on that mob until it's dead, when the mob is down to about 25% or just once it's lifebar is red, I switch to another mob to taunt and attack, after first mob dead, the group assists me to kill second, so on and so forth. I've had absolutely no problem with losing aggro as long as everyone was assisting me, which is good, wailing caves is not a good place to have aggro all over the place. Although I'm sure WC is "n00b z0n3" for some of you by now. get a job :P
I can't tell if I've said what I had the intention of saying... but err, yeah
I can't tell if I've said what I had the intention of saying... but err, yeah
Bah.. tank shouldn't pull.. rubbish.
Scholar
28 posts
Okay, by now you should notice that everyone has an opinion. Thats all these are. Depending on a few factors, how the tank manages are wildly different. Factors:
1) Is she with a pickup group, guild group, group that meets regularly, raid, etc
2) what classes make up the group
3) what mobs your facing (single, multi, boss, etc)
These and others will help determine how things are truly handled. The best things to do pre-20 are learn your fighting skills, learn how HOs work, work with different weapons and tactics, and most importantly HAVE FUN!
(its really easy to make yourself miserable in these games.)
1) Is she with a pickup group, guild group, group that meets regularly, raid, etc
2) what classes make up the group
3) what mobs your facing (single, multi, boss, etc)
These and others will help determine how things are truly handled. The best things to do pre-20 are learn your fighting skills, learn how HOs work, work with different weapons and tactics, and most importantly HAVE FUN!
(its really easy to make yourself miserable in these games.)
Its not the fact that the tank should never pull, it's that fact that the tank should NEVER be the Main Assist. Normally, it's easier to just make the MA/Puller be the same person. Since, your group is going to have to /assist the puller in the beginging anyway.
And why shouldn't the tank be the MA? Easy. If a mob does for some reason break away (Over healing/casting whatever), you need the tank to be able to stop attacking the focus mob and take care of regaining aggroe to the mob that broke away. And if the tank is the Main Assist, then if someone loses target for whatever reason, there going to assist a mob that isn't the focus of the group.
Take this example. You are fighting 3 gnolls. G1, G2, G3. (G=gnoll, number=there number).
Puller attacks G1, and G2/G3 come. Tank uses shout, gets aggroe from G1/2/3. Group focus is now on G1. Yet, sorcerer over-casts and G3 splits off to him while G1/G2 are still on the tank. The tank needs to be able to stop attacking G1 (the groups focus mob atm), and taunt G3 off the sorcerer. Once aggroe from G3 is regained, the tank can now /assist the MA and get back on target.
Thus, the tank should NEVER be the main assist. And the puller/main assist role tend to fall together as one.
Hope that clears that up.
And why shouldn't the tank be the MA? Easy. If a mob does for some reason break away (Over healing/casting whatever), you need the tank to be able to stop attacking the focus mob and take care of regaining aggroe to the mob that broke away. And if the tank is the Main Assist, then if someone loses target for whatever reason, there going to assist a mob that isn't the focus of the group.
Take this example. You are fighting 3 gnolls. G1, G2, G3. (G=gnoll, number=there number).
Puller attacks G1, and G2/G3 come. Tank uses shout, gets aggroe from G1/2/3. Group focus is now on G1. Yet, sorcerer over-casts and G3 splits off to him while G1/G2 are still on the tank. The tank needs to be able to stop attacking G1 (the groups focus mob atm), and taunt G3 off the sorcerer. Once aggroe from G3 is regained, the tank can now /assist the MA and get back on target.
Thus, the tank should NEVER be the main assist. And the puller/main assist role tend to fall together as one.
Hope that clears that up.
From my own experiences here as a Crusader->Shadowknight and in EQ1 as a Shadowknight, I will give you this information.
The sub-class she is going for gives her a very large range of options. Contradictory to what was said above (other than a few specific instances), the MT is normally the MA, and as a crusader/shadowknight/paladin, most certainly can also be the puller. Crusaders get range DD attacks that make for easy pulling, now fuss of a bow and limited ammo.
As a shadowknight in EQ1, I was pretty much ALWAYS the MT/MA/Puller in any XP group and often in raids. If I wasn't the MT/MA I was the puller. I rarely see someone who is a Puller and MA but not MT. The MT, in most situations, should be the one calling what to attack since HE IS THE ONE holding aggro.
I'm not saying that is the only way to do it, I'm sure you CAN do it the other way, but from personal experience, that is how I have always done it, and how I have always seen it done.
Granted, EQ2 is different to some extent, but so far (in these lower levels) I am seeing some of the same techniques working wonderfully.
The sub-class she is going for gives her a very large range of options. Contradictory to what was said above (other than a few specific instances), the MT is normally the MA, and as a crusader/shadowknight/paladin, most certainly can also be the puller. Crusaders get range DD attacks that make for easy pulling, now fuss of a bow and limited ammo.
As a shadowknight in EQ1, I was pretty much ALWAYS the MT/MA/Puller in any XP group and often in raids. If I wasn't the MT/MA I was the puller. I rarely see someone who is a Puller and MA but not MT. The MT, in most situations, should be the one calling what to attack since HE IS THE ONE holding aggro.
I'm not saying that is the only way to do it, I'm sure you CAN do it the other way, but from personal experience, that is how I have always done it, and how I have always seen it done.
Granted, EQ2 is different to some extent, but so far (in these lower levels) I am seeing some of the same techniques working wonderfully.
Quote:
And why shouldn't the tank be the MA? Easy. If a mob does for some reason break away (Over healing/casting whatever), you need the tank to be able to stop attacking the focus mob and take care of regaining aggroe to the mob that broke away. And if the tank is the Main Assist, then if someone loses target for whatever reason, there going to assist a mob that isn't the focus of the group.
That is what crowd control is for, Tank Mezzing if nothing else.
If your tank is losing aggro on the main mob then you need another tank, if the adds are aggroing other people you need an off-tank to handle the extras till the MT/MA gets to them.
agreed gxm.
But I use assist so I get the the mob in target and nuke.. I dont nuke MT (autoassist).. That way I am on one mob til that one is dead even tho MT has to change target to save someone.
Autoassist is only good when I am killing mobs who die FAST.
Dont want to accidently use nukes that has a LONG recast time on a mob who is just about to die.. I need to know the mobs health to be effective..
But I use assist so I get the the mob in target and nuke.. I dont nuke MT (autoassist).. That way I am on one mob til that one is dead even tho MT has to change target to save someone.
Autoassist is only good when I am killing mobs who die FAST.
Dont want to accidently use nukes that has a LONG recast time on a mob who is just about to die.. I need to know the mobs health to be effective..
Right, that is another point. All DPS classes in the group should be actually using the command /assist <name> preferrably in a hot-key. That way they are always on the same mob. If you lose your mob target you should be able to find the right one if by no other method than to cycle until you find the one losing life the fastest =p
ok coming from an experienced tank in eq1 i think it is good to assist off of the main tank. the main tank will usually assist off the puller unless he is the puller then the rest of the group should assist off the tank. as a support member of a group you should not have to assist off the tnak again till after the first mob you had contact with dies then you hit your /assist hotkey and move on to the next target that the tank has agro with. if you do it right and not just go nuke wild or arrow happy then you wont break mezzes early or break roots with a wrongly placed nuke. most importantly as a tank try to switch quick between multiple targets once one dies there are times ive been in groups in eq2 where the MA cant switch between targets fast enough and the mob goes for the healers this is where the tab key i think it is comes into play it will cycle thru the targets close to you.
as a tank in a group you should have a few hotkeys set up as well
1) your inc message "/g INC %T Kill it or be killed" just insert your own text
2) your attack message "/g surround and attack %T" if your dealing with mezzeds mobs or in a raid
3) your assist hotkey "/assist denotri" make sure you have the tanks name or the pullers name after /assist then everytime you hit that key you will automatically switch to the target that the tank is engaged with. and wiht eq2 they made it so you ahve to manually turn your attack on after hitting assist so you wont gain agro before the tank has it. which is great compared to eq1 where when you hit your assist key you would automatically start attacking and would sometimes wipe raids or groups from breaking a mez early. sometimes its good to have 2 or 3 hotkeys set up especially if your in a raid environment cause then you can have assist keys set up for the puller, the main assist, the secondary assist and even for the Third assist.
there was a few more i usually had but cant rember what they were right now.
as a tank in a group you should have a few hotkeys set up as well
1) your inc message "/g INC %T Kill it or be killed" just insert your own text
2) your attack message "/g surround and attack %T" if your dealing with mezzeds mobs or in a raid
3) your assist hotkey "/assist denotri" make sure you have the tanks name or the pullers name after /assist then everytime you hit that key you will automatically switch to the target that the tank is engaged with. and wiht eq2 they made it so you ahve to manually turn your attack on after hitting assist so you wont gain agro before the tank has it. which is great compared to eq1 where when you hit your assist key you would automatically start attacking and would sometimes wipe raids or groups from breaking a mez early. sometimes its good to have 2 or 3 hotkeys set up especially if your in a raid environment cause then you can have assist keys set up for the puller, the main assist, the secondary assist and even for the Third assist.
there was a few more i usually had but cant rember what they were right now.
Thanks for all your input. For now we are just acting as a party of two, I being a priest and her the fighter, so she gets use to being the tank. We won't be partying with others till she's comfortable.
Quote:
That is what crowd control is for, Tank Mezzing if nothing else.
Well, if you can make it so you always have an enchanter in your parties. Then more power too you.
My advice is directed towards the pick-up parties (ie, what the majority of people do). Static parties will find there own techniques with eachothers abilities.
But face the facts. You will always encounter people who will over aggroe. And as the tank it is your job to do everything in your power to keep that mob on you. The only real reason you wouldn't do this is if you had a second tank who is designated to tank off breaks/adds/whatever.
You are the tank. You are the line of defense between the mob and your group. If you have to break from the focus mob to deal with a break, then that's what you have to do. And if your also the MA and people accidently lose there target (trust me, it happens), you don't need people turning on the mob your trying to get the attention of. You want everyone you can on one single mob, not 2 people on one mob and 2 others on another and 1 stupid dude off in the corner cirlce-jerking himself.
Your puller can easily figure out what monster to attack next. So just let your puller be the Main Assist. You assist him on the pull, so you might as well keep assisting him through the fight.
Also, keep in mind, it is not uncommong for a good tank to be circling through each mob and aggroe each one individually. What I mean, is if you have 4 mobs, the tank would target one, taunt it, move to the next, taunt it, etc etc. Imagine the confusion people will have if the guy doing that is also the MA...
well, from a healer POV, learning to pay attention to keeping your healer alive is good, and learning when your gonna die, and tell everyone to clear out to minimize groupo death.
Quote:
Quote:That is what crowd control is for, Tank Mezzing if nothing else.
Well, if you can make it so you always have an enchanter in your parties. Then more power too you.
Well, if you can make it so you always have an enchanter in your parties. Then more power too you.
Tank mezzing has nothing to do with enchanters. Tank Mezzing (TMing) is when a tank grabs the extra mob and tanks it alone while the rest of the group finishes off the other mob. Simple tactic used for years for when either the mob is un-mezzable and un-charmable.
Use shout everytime it pops, random 'splash' damage from ho's by other party members (sky cleave etc) cause grouped mobs to aggro them which can cause hassle.
Never use Assualt unlesss you are certian there are no random mobs around you, I got killed cause I assualted in a crowded area before. Maintaining aggro is a simple enough process with the right spells and skills.
I'm a Warrior(going Berseker) and using the three taunts I get help maintain aggro usually without fail on all mobs, as MT you job is to take the pounding while everyone else does the sick amounts of damage, watch your mobs and make sure they are hitting you at all times, it's easy enough once you've done it a few times.
Through Experiance I've found the crusader spell that does a rune like effect (forget name) geneartes a ***** load of aggro
Never use Assualt unlesss you are certian there are no random mobs around you, I got killed cause I assualted in a crowded area before. Maintaining aggro is a simple enough process with the right spells and skills.
I'm a Warrior(going Berseker) and using the three taunts I get help maintain aggro usually without fail on all mobs, as MT you job is to take the pounding while everyone else does the sick amounts of damage, watch your mobs and make sure they are hitting you at all times, it's easy enough once you've done it a few times.
Through Experiance I've found the crusader spell that does a rune like effect (forget name) geneartes a ***** load of aggro
Demonstration of Faith, I love that spell. It is a staple for combat hands down. Most combats, despite it using a good chunk of power to cast, I cast it every time it pops. Sometimes I space em out some so that I have more power for damage spells/abilities - I can take the hits so I will if I know it will be one of those fights.
47 posts
Speaking as a Level 20 Pally. Here is what I do and it works pretty good most of the time.
1) Pull with Rightous Anger. It has a great range and gets inital agro on me. Now keep in mind this is not much.
2) As the mobs get back to the group I hit shout (Upgrade this ability while help a lot) This draws complete agro early in the fight.
3) Assault - Nice short range AE that gives that little bit of extra hate to keep the mobs in line.
4) Cry of Conviction - Again nice AE that has a short range and keeps hate pretty well.
Since I duo with a Shaman I don't use DoF much. After the inital agro is set depending on the fight I can often just hit shout when it pops again to keep agro. On harder fights where I'm taking more damage and heals are flying more as well as wards, I'll change targets and use Inflame or Shout. Again upgrade your Inflame I have adept I and if one cast does not pull agro back to me a second will in a heart beat.
Faithful swing is your friend as well since it is wild swing with the added effect of a small heal for you. While pulling agro back I will inflame then faithful swing. This is normally enough though in a rare case I will have to hit other abilities and even wait for Inflame to pop to use it a second time. It would be nice if taunt and Inflame were not tied to the same timer (wild swing and faithful swing are as well).
Finally If you have a shield (and you should if you are a tank) Unyielding advance does a stun which raises hate and can be used to pull agro back if needed. Charge (on the same timer as kick) Is a little better you get this at 19.6 and it is more damage than UA and has a stun as well. The plus to this is that you don't need a sheild to use it.
Given the number of options a pally has you should not have much trouble holding agro if you time things out and pay attention. Oh and if you can finish an HO there is agro for the person that completes it. Either use your single HO or work out something with your group but be sure that the tank completes the HO is possible.
1) Pull with Rightous Anger. It has a great range and gets inital agro on me. Now keep in mind this is not much.
2) As the mobs get back to the group I hit shout (Upgrade this ability while help a lot) This draws complete agro early in the fight.
3) Assault - Nice short range AE that gives that little bit of extra hate to keep the mobs in line.
4) Cry of Conviction - Again nice AE that has a short range and keeps hate pretty well.
Since I duo with a Shaman I don't use DoF much. After the inital agro is set depending on the fight I can often just hit shout when it pops again to keep agro. On harder fights where I'm taking more damage and heals are flying more as well as wards, I'll change targets and use Inflame or Shout. Again upgrade your Inflame I have adept I and if one cast does not pull agro back to me a second will in a heart beat.
Faithful swing is your friend as well since it is wild swing with the added effect of a small heal for you. While pulling agro back I will inflame then faithful swing. This is normally enough though in a rare case I will have to hit other abilities and even wait for Inflame to pop to use it a second time. It would be nice if taunt and Inflame were not tied to the same timer (wild swing and faithful swing are as well).
Finally If you have a shield (and you should if you are a tank) Unyielding advance does a stun which raises hate and can be used to pull agro back if needed. Charge (on the same timer as kick) Is a little better you get this at 19.6 and it is more damage than UA and has a stun as well. The plus to this is that you don't need a sheild to use it.
Given the number of options a pally has you should not have much trouble holding agro if you time things out and pay attention. Oh and if you can finish an HO there is agro for the person that completes it. Either use your single HO or work out something with your group but be sure that the tank completes the HO is possible.
Quote:
Tank mezzing has nothing to do with enchanters. Tank Mezzing (TMing) is when a tank grabs the extra mob and tanks it alone while the rest of the group finishes off the other mob. Simple tactic used for years for when either the mob is un-mezzable and un-charmable.
No kidding. Thing is, for a long time tank-mezzing isn't even going to be an issue, just a hinderance. Tank mezzing was majoritly used on boss mobs when there where adds/pops that had to be dealth with anyway.
In a normal group situation, as the tank you should be the focus of each and every mob's attention. Later on in EQ2 you might have to split-tank (have 2 tanks), but I don't think that should happen either.
But anyway. Enough defending myself. You'll realize soon enough why you should almost always never be the Main Assist as a tank.
Quote:
1) Pull with Rightous Anger. It has a great range and gets inital agro on me. Now keep in mind this is not much.
2) As the mobs get back to the group I hit shout (Upgrade this ability while help a lot) This draws complete agro early in the fight.
3) Assault - Nice short range AE that gives that little bit of extra hate to keep the mobs in line.
4) Cry of Conviction - Again nice AE that has a short range and keeps hate pretty well.
2) As the mobs get back to the group I hit shout (Upgrade this ability while help a lot) This draws complete agro early in the fight.
3) Assault - Nice short range AE that gives that little bit of extra hate to keep the mobs in line.
4) Cry of Conviction - Again nice AE that has a short range and keeps hate pretty well.
As an 18 Crusader, who uses exactly that method, ... well, I agree. It keeps hate. After starting fights doing that, use inflame, taunt, shout, accordingly.
Recent Visitors: 136
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (136)
- Forums
- EverQuest II
- General Discussion
- Training a Tank
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC