Coming to Grips with EQ2Follow

I was at work today and suddenly started thinking about why I was finding EQ2 so .... frustrating. Admitedly I think the quests are awesome, and the classes fun (playing an enchanter). The graphics rock as well, tradeskilling is good, etc.

But the big thing that I've had to come to grips with is that the "mechanics" of the game don't lend themselves to creative thinking.

1)I notice that traditional EQ1 pulling tactics are not needed. You want a solo, find a SOLO tagged mob. No split pulling, FD pulling, Lull, or Harmony.
2) No worry about chain aggro, proximity aggro as a mob is being pulled, etc. Just target a mob, click, and it comes to you to kill.
3) No soloing techniques like aggro kiting, fear kiting, swarming, quadding, etc. No creativity for the solo player at all or even for groups of kiters. No joy at pulling off a single pull, no skill in avoiding a train with a well timed feign.
4) No real aggro management. My enchanter can basically chain stun/mez/dot/nuke whatever and never gets aggro.

These observations are based on having played EQ for several years, with a soloing necro and group based shammy both above level 65. This is also based on having played EQ2 since release every day and twice on Sunday :P I just hope that some of the challenges and fun strategies that used to exist can return to EQ2.

Any thoughts ?

This is just something I did last night that, while it was very frustrating, at the same time it was kinda fun. My roommie and I are both going up the outfitter tree and decided to gather supplies to make some of the higher level armors. with the enormous amount of resources they take I went out just harvesting last night in antonica. Right now both classes I'm at lvl 15, a lot of things out there are still red to me, I went out risking my life several times sneaking up behind gnolls and lizards in order to fill my bags with iron, turqoise, electrum, and tubers. after about 3-4 hours of this...I only had around 100 tuber strands, 35 iron, 25 turqoise, and around 30 maple. after close to 4 hours of harvesting I would have hoped to have had almost twice as much. mbut as frustrating as that was, it was also pretty fun trying to see if I could avoid getting a train of 7 lizards up on me, or how long I could keep mining the callous ore while getting beat up before I'd have to run.

AMEN!

This is *exactly* what I've been thinking. Like you, I'm digging EQ2 so far, but mostly because it's "new". The quests are already getting old for me - some I'm doing just so that stupid npc will frickin STOP ASKIN ME TO FETCH HER BAIT! (gah!)

There is no creativity or "real" excitement in the fights. Just engage, do HO's, and if we've picked a tough one - do we yell and run or stick it out and see if we can take it? Now a mage-type can root a grouped mob before you pull, etc. - if you have a mezzer it's good - there are "some" tactics avaiable. But yeah, it's nothing like the dazzling variety in old EQ. And the biggest and most pervasive tactic, the HO, is just a fruit machine - a bizarely detached, contrived device - and not real tactics.

In old EQ it was really fun to see if you and your buds could actually kill a wicked-bad so-and-so. It was simply electrifying when you finally mastered some difficult new technique! And in old EQ I knew why I'd triumphed - there were *reasons* for the tactics working (instead of getting lucky on the fruit machine, er HO, as in EQ2).

What we're seeing now in EQ2 is the product of bean-counters, ultimately. Now yes, of course, some very creative people were/are invovled in EQ2, and I don't mean to besmirch them. But it is obvious to me that they are being closely monitored by "corporate-minded bosses" - beancounters. Just as a camel is "a horse designed by committee", EQ2 is what happens when designers try to please everyone. Folks, you may hate me for saying this, but one day you're going to wake up to it - EQ2 has put us all on a very short leash.

In this brave new world of brutal egalitarianism, everyone is pretty much equal. But no one can "fly". I hate that. Like I've said in other posts, it took hundreds of years for the wide open American frontier to end ... and less than a decade for MMOLRPGs to become tamed and dull.

I've encountered the camping a spawn to complete a quest once. But most times, either there're quite a bit of them to go around for everyone, or there's another instance one can go to. :)

I don't have any experience with EQ1 so my opinion may be off center... like 10 miles or so. :/

Anyway, I came from... yep, you guessed it... FFXI. One "could" solo mobs. But to get any respectable exp solo, you had to be certain jobs. In EQ2, one seems tougher and can take on what may seemingly be too tough for them. The most challenging I've gone against was a yellow solo mob. I've gone through a lot of group green mobs (1 mage type 2-3 melee type) solo as well.

Pulling strategies are present in FFXI. Quite a bit of mobs will link. There's kiting for certain situations. But as stated before, any way to get respectable exp is to be certain jobs.

The challenge, I faced, wasn't in pulling (and it doesn't take a degree in astro-physics to get into a good aggro-free position to fight a mob, then pull your target), rather it was during the fight. Having to use abilities to help me get my HO's off. Determining when to use an ability that would increase my defense but limit my offense so I could survive the fight. Having to make full efficient use of my power to kill a mage type mob as fast as possible but have enough left to take care of the remaining 3 lackeys.

I'm a melee type character, so maybe that's why I find these types of challenges? If PC mage archetypes are anywhere near as lethal as the NPC's, then I can understand why you feel the way you do.

Maybe in the hope of catering to both solo and group oriented people, the mechanics of the game are a bit skewed? I don't know. Just my thoughts and current experiences. I hope you find something to keep you in this fledgling world. It needs all the veterans it can keep. ^^

you also have to realize that the game is brand new. There may be new strategies out there that either involve being higher level than the high teens to mid 20's levels most are at at this point, or just simply haven't been discovered. fear kiting didn't exist on day one in EQ. Comparing a game with 8 expansions to one with none is an excercise in futility, of course the one with 8 expansions has more options. Give EQ2 a little time and see how it evolves, then make your decision about it.

You all make excellent points - and yes, I do hope I'm wrong. I do hope that maybe because the game is new we're just not seeing cool opportunities.

But look to what Wildestripe said - where is the passion that was in EQ1? The sense of triumph at what you achieved - because you discovered or learned some wild tactic - and it worked! I just don't see it here. Again I do hope I'm wrong.

And people are camping, btw. Yes, it's not the same - but is "no camping" really > "no flying"? Not for me (we could have both no camping and flying).

Still, the game is offering me new stuff, so I'll keep exploring it... but with a wary eye. And maybe there is a way to cut that leash and run free!!! And... if I really wanna fly I guess I can always go find a griff tower....

I agree, wait an see is always a great attitdue it'll be interesting to see how high end raid work with the instance zones and limited numbers, with low numbers say 24 or so you have to come up with tactics. How many epic mobs in Eq1 where killed by zerging it till it fell over .. that's not tactics.

I'm loving eq2 so far .. maybe later that will change but I don't care I live in the now

In EQ1, many of the tactics we are lamenting the loss of were artificial ways to prevent actual engagement of the player and the mob(s). We had to do these things because mob damage output was greater than the combined ability of any 1-5 players to take damage over the course of a fight. Fear kiting, aggro-kiting, root rotting, quadding, swarm chanting were all methods to kill mobs while not letting them touch us. This central game mechanic divided casting classes vs. melee classes and caused great suffering. Anyone who actually had to stand up and fight a mob needed help, while those that could simply plop down and med while dots or pets did the dirty work breezed through the game solo.

In EQ2, taking away the ability to (mostly) distance oneself from any mob immediately rids us of all these balance issues and levels the playing field between classes. To make this viable, mob power is more in line with that of players making kiting mostly unnecessary and multi-mob battles the norm instead of a serious player mistake. I always felt that it was inherently silly that even a full group in EQ1 simply must always pull/fight one mob at a time or suffer the consequences. To me, it isn't such an epic battle to take on 5 orcs if you pull and kill one at a time while his friends blindly watch without helping. I'm level 16 now, and taking on 4-5 mob green groups solo has provided a consistent challenge. The kind of challenge where effective termination of the casters first, use of HOs and AoE abilities, and management of power will determine the outcome of the fight. Add a little lag and death is a serious concern. I have come out of these fights with a sliver of health and the same feeling of accomplishment as EQ1 provided.

As for lack of tactics in EQ2, I think it is a little too early to tell. For example: grouped HO execution is something that is important and must be carefully choreographed by everyone. This is far from a trivial task even in groups of people that play together often. We have been playing these characters for 2 weeks and I am still learning all the things my abilities can do. Did feign death pulling become a common EQ1 tactic in the first weeks? How long was it before an /afk necro soloed the king room in Guk? People will always find the limits of the game's envelope and then start pushing them. It is just a matter of time before someone starts finding tricks and tactics that give advantage in EQ2.

While I think the implementation of locked mobs, aggro 'neutral' mobs returning to their 'home', group vs. solo mob distinctions, and tier-2 harvesting skill requirements could use some work, overall this is turning out to be a great game. At least, as far as I have gotten, my complaints are vastly outweighed by the things I like.

Game has only been out a few weeks. I still have not seen any plus 30 people on my server by the who command. I always give the game a good 2-3 months before i make final judgement.

I played a Ranger in EQ1...I did waaay too much tradeskilling and dying and taking a year off twice during the 5 years I played, I only ended up at level 39 I think. Anyway, I was just getting to the point where I could drag a mob away from battle and root it in place. (common ranger tactic to assist in crowd control)

I've always loved crowd control though. I used to taunt mobs off the main tank to split the damage. Noone ever appreciated it. So this time I decided to play an Enchanter. I will go on to be an illusionist probably, unless it is forbidden to the dark side.

I love using fascination to keep my party alive. I don't see how they could do it in a dungeon without an enchanter. And I don't even need to nuke.

Soloing is fun too. Mez pull, root the other mob, dot dot dot, renew the rez, renew the root. Lots of tactics you can use.

I started a scout. They LIVE by HO when soloing. Sneak attack, ambush, quick shot. These make up for the low/medium dps output and the low/medium ability to take damage. But without HO, and that extra free attack or two, soloing more than one mob would be impossible.

My wife plays a fighter. Only one sort of crowd control there. Kill the first one fast. LOL. HO very useful in soloing.

I've done a bit of tradeskilling. The distribution of the recipes is all messed up. Look at what it takes to make Lightning Burst Adept III. 3 different rare drop books. One for the spell, one for the ink, one for the dye and refine required to make the ink. AND you have to get paper and quills from a craftsman (or is it outfitter, I never get those right).

The actual crafting of things is fun, having to counteract mishaps, using combinations of spells to speed up the process or improve the quality to make up for a blunder.

We did a raid on the newbie island the other day. Not having done this on EQ, I had a blast. We did the orc cave. It was total chaos, and a riot, and nobody died.

Overall, I love the game much more than EQ. If only folks would hit that /yell button when they run off. Then I could pull aggro off them instead of watching them run off to die.

I think you guys who don't see the complexity in the gameplay are either a) stuck in EQ1 mode or b) not playing the game right. Most of the solo techniques from EQ1 are gone because they were cheap, the devs have always intended for the tougher encounters to only be beatable with sound group tactics. As for HO's, I'll admit that the soloing is pretty much boring HO spam, but the group multi part HO's kick *** and are difficult to pull off. The problem is most groups don't have the discipline to even try them. And I imagine most of the endgame encounters will require a group to work together and plan out the right HO's to take it down.

From a tanking perspective, this is the funnest MMORPG I've ever played- I love having 6 mobs beating on me at once while I bust my *** to keep aggro on them all...that takes way more work than the boring one mob at a time tanking from other games I've played. I don't even see how anyone could say aggro is not an issue, maybe you need to try tanking. Pulling is still not so easy either...yeah when you pull a group of mobs you pull the whole group, but usually on the run back I have to risk running over spawn points that might pop on me at anytime. Pulling 2+ groups of mobs on a bad pull will end your xp session quickly.

Don't forget this is a whole new game, classes do not play the same as they did in EQ1. If you're disappointed with your abilities maybe that class is not for you. I do admit the soloing is boring, but how else would you set it up so all classes could solo equally? If one class gets to kite then everyother class will complain about how Bob the druid soloed such and such boss mob, and that he needs to be nerfed. SOE has learned this lesson, they'd rather have people ***** about how boring soloing is than deal with the constant complaints about class balancing and the resulting nerfing.

1. Is duo-ing effective? My wife and I both play and we'd like to play together. My concern is that maybe solo mobs will be too easy but group mobs too hard? Is it worth it since everyone can solo to duo?

I find duoing to be highly effective. I currently play a crusader (soon to be paladin) and my girlfriend plays a bard (subclass undecided). We typically kill blue group mobs for good xp & drops.

2. Is there a formula for groups? Do you need tank+healer+crowd control+damage dealing? I have read pulling is effecively removed as needed. I am wondering if the rest is similar.

In my opinion, an ideal group would have one of each archetype. Opinions vary on this, though.

2a. How specific are the roles (if they exist at all)? Specifically, is there a class like the cleric or enchanter in Eq1 where they are considered key to a successful group?

Any member of a given archetype can do that archetype's job, though it may take some creativity in figuring out how.

3. Do people group? Is there a point in level where grouping is just way way better then solo for leveling?

People group a lot in my experience. The best groups far outperform solo xp, the mediocre groups are far below it.

4. Is any content level restricted? Are there raid targets for, say, 3 groups of level 20's which cannot just be soloed by a level 40?

That level 40 could possibly solo the 3-group lvl 20 raid, but would get no xp or rare loot from it. Once a mob goes grey (which starts about 6 levels under me, at lvl 18) you get nothing but common drop and quest completion from it.

5. Is there flagged/keyed content?

There are many zones you have to complete "access" quests to gain access to. So far all of my access quests have been duo'd.

6. Is there LDoN style instanced zones (private zones)? Do mobs spawn behind you? Is there some kind of port/evac that can be used from deep in dungeons? Is there any kind of "call of the hero" like mechanic for allowing people to join late? If there are private zones, can you invite others into them?

There are some, but not many (I've seen one, not counting solo quest zones).

7. Does it cost money to set oneself up as a trader? E.g. if I'm level 3 with no cash, but I harvest some tradeskill goodies or find some kind of tradable thing I want to sell, can I do it?

It costs something like 76 copper to buy a market board in order to set yourself up as a trader, and 5 silver per week (first week is free) to maintain the house you trade from.

8. Is there a "raid" mechainic in which more then 6 (or whatever the standard group size) can share some exp? What is the penalty to exp in doing so? (If any)

You can raid up to 4 groups together. The con of mobs is pushed down toward grey with the more groups you string together, and you get no loot (except common drops) from non-raid mobs.

Interface questions:
A. Are there user created and password protected chat channels?

Yes

B. Is it easy to switch into/out of game mode?
C. Is there a badword filter?

Don't know the answer to B or C.

Who knows if they will add a "yell for help" ability for the mobs that calls other mobs nearby to assist..... since there arent any risk of normal pull bringing back 10 instead of one... Just my 2c.