Quote:
To the above poster. I was in a very large LS (70+ members) and to say PLD was "second choice" to NIN is pretty...eh, not true. There were two people in my LS that preferred Ninja tanks. The rest were all Pro-Pld, NIN second.
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Then why was it that every time we did a BCNM or Avatar battle people said NIN tanks only? Maybe Bahamut was just a crappy server, who knows? My experience like I said was that PLDs were not looked down upon, but second choice to NINs for most tanking roles. There was at least more flexiblity with a NIN because like I said if you didn't have a BRD or RDM your PLD was useless in a fight.
3 posts
I would consider myself a casual MMO player, if there is such a thing. I never invest the amount of time that even an average player does. But that does not mean that I don't have fun. I never played EQ1, but was really looking forward to being able to start fresh with EQ2, without that overwhelming sense of being so far behind. I tried FF11, liking the world of Final Fantasy, and looking for new game to try. It was apparent quickly that I was huge newbie, and was in way over my head. I was not experienced enough or organized enough with others to Twink... Plus the learning curve in that game was quite steep. I had played Ultimate Online from way back, Dark Age, Earth and Beyond... thats about it. FF11 was really hard to get into...
I read this post, and found it to be insightful. It even inspired me to get signed up here, and make my first post. I wanted to let everyone know that there are "newbies" out here, and we appreciate the help, support, and guidance of experienced players- especially those with EQ experience. I have more time to invest, and I look forward to actually being a more active part of the community. That said, I wanted to comment on what I have already seen since launch. Most people have been very nice, and helpful. There are lots of us new folks out there, and we generally can group together to figure things out. But the other night I ran into a real sign of Elitism already, and it bothered me. My brother and I are playing together, and we were trying to go to one of the zones. What we found were two instances of the wailing caves, both filled with two different guilds. These guilds are big. They could not possibly be filled with folks who randomly found each other. They are either from Beta, or from EQ. Fine, guilds will happen, and if I stick with this I am sure I will find one I like and join. But they dominated the zones for two nights, and would not let anyone else join groups or raids. They were quite rude about it, too. I have always heard about camping from EQ... it was one of the things that did not sound attractive. If you are truly worried about helping out newbies, and avoiding elitism, I see one of you biggest areas of concerns to be guilds like this. If they are going to squat areas, and shut people out, than people like me are going to get turned off.
Our solution was to leave the server, call our time investment a wash, and start over on a new server. But it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Again, I appreciate what I imagine is the majority of experienced players who are helpful and supportive. Thanks for taking us newbies into consideration.
I read this post, and found it to be insightful. It even inspired me to get signed up here, and make my first post. I wanted to let everyone know that there are "newbies" out here, and we appreciate the help, support, and guidance of experienced players- especially those with EQ experience. I have more time to invest, and I look forward to actually being a more active part of the community. That said, I wanted to comment on what I have already seen since launch. Most people have been very nice, and helpful. There are lots of us new folks out there, and we generally can group together to figure things out. But the other night I ran into a real sign of Elitism already, and it bothered me. My brother and I are playing together, and we were trying to go to one of the zones. What we found were two instances of the wailing caves, both filled with two different guilds. These guilds are big. They could not possibly be filled with folks who randomly found each other. They are either from Beta, or from EQ. Fine, guilds will happen, and if I stick with this I am sure I will find one I like and join. But they dominated the zones for two nights, and would not let anyone else join groups or raids. They were quite rude about it, too. I have always heard about camping from EQ... it was one of the things that did not sound attractive. If you are truly worried about helping out newbies, and avoiding elitism, I see one of you biggest areas of concerns to be guilds like this. If they are going to squat areas, and shut people out, than people like me are going to get turned off.
Our solution was to leave the server, call our time investment a wash, and start over on a new server. But it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Again, I appreciate what I imagine is the majority of experienced players who are helpful and supportive. Thanks for taking us newbies into consideration.
Scholar
29 posts
first beleive me that i am no fanboy i like EQ2 and find it to be a great game same with ffxi, im just giving my opinion
i play ffxi and i have been for a longtime, yes some jpn ppl won't invite u but there more reason behind that then gear. its they don't wanna take the time to teach u the basics.. just like when ffxi was released on ps2 it totally brought a new generation of players into the world whom some have never played an mmo before. which don't understand anything about them and still have the preconception that joining a christian chat and saying "im anti christ" was cool. thats just an example some ppl were really cool, most all the ppl i have met that have previously played other mmo's were cool, but back to the jpn's being ahead of us, thats far not the quest nor the answer, yes i do beleive some might have thought that, and that could have been a reason, but still jpn base everything on skill, although choosing the right job to fit ur skill vs equip is ur choice... say u pick a monk... thats one of the most expensive jobs in the game... not truely ment for the main job of someone who first starts, mnk have bad accuracy is why i say it. and acc + items are the most expensive normal gear i can think of. but all in all you really don't need gear that costs u 30 million gil untill ur lv 65+ and thats only if ur fighting gods , exping can be done with normal gear. especially if your a mage. i don't think they messed up on doing this because i enjoy the fact of having jpn's in my server. i know they like most of us. when my friend became the second NA to reach lvl 75 on my server jpn's cheered for him, and still do. the auto-translation system is a really good idea, and i use it in regular conversation, although some of the things in it are some what funny, for example how the (reward) translated in jpn is for the reward u would give you pet as a beastmaster, but NA uses it like this (Item) (Can i have it?) (reward) xxxg i think u all get the point and i can't speak for other servers, but i sure can speak for mine, gil is hard to obtain but u can easily start out with 300g and make 3k then turn that into 12k and that into 64k i know this because low lvl crafting makes it possible, takea stack of lighting crystals go to Giddeus kill yagudo untill u get a yagudo necklace (which is like a 2/3 drop ratio) then desynth that into a copper ingot do that 12 times and u just made 3k+ thats teh price of copper ingots in bastok. even then u could farm silk thread to get gil those sold for 12k a stack. although i will say a fresh start is really fun because you don't know whats out there. finding and discovering new things is the funnest part in alot of games.
what i see being the downfall converting lots to EQ2 is the statistics EQ2 has for each character on each server... im a stats person, always have been.
i play ffxi and i have been for a longtime, yes some jpn ppl won't invite u but there more reason behind that then gear. its they don't wanna take the time to teach u the basics.. just like when ffxi was released on ps2 it totally brought a new generation of players into the world whom some have never played an mmo before. which don't understand anything about them and still have the preconception that joining a christian chat and saying "im anti christ" was cool. thats just an example some ppl were really cool, most all the ppl i have met that have previously played other mmo's were cool, but back to the jpn's being ahead of us, thats far not the quest nor the answer, yes i do beleive some might have thought that, and that could have been a reason, but still jpn base everything on skill, although choosing the right job to fit ur skill vs equip is ur choice... say u pick a monk... thats one of the most expensive jobs in the game... not truely ment for the main job of someone who first starts, mnk have bad accuracy is why i say it. and acc + items are the most expensive normal gear i can think of. but all in all you really don't need gear that costs u 30 million gil untill ur lv 65+ and thats only if ur fighting gods , exping can be done with normal gear. especially if your a mage. i don't think they messed up on doing this because i enjoy the fact of having jpn's in my server. i know they like most of us. when my friend became the second NA to reach lvl 75 on my server jpn's cheered for him, and still do. the auto-translation system is a really good idea, and i use it in regular conversation, although some of the things in it are some what funny, for example how the (reward) translated in jpn is for the reward u would give you pet as a beastmaster, but NA uses it like this (Item) (Can i have it?) (reward) xxxg i think u all get the point and i can't speak for other servers, but i sure can speak for mine, gil is hard to obtain but u can easily start out with 300g and make 3k then turn that into 12k and that into 64k i know this because low lvl crafting makes it possible, takea stack of lighting crystals go to Giddeus kill yagudo untill u get a yagudo necklace (which is like a 2/3 drop ratio) then desynth that into a copper ingot do that 12 times and u just made 3k+ thats teh price of copper ingots in bastok. even then u could farm silk thread to get gil those sold for 12k a stack. although i will say a fresh start is really fun because you don't know whats out there. finding and discovering new things is the funnest part in alot of games.
what i see being the downfall converting lots to EQ2 is the statistics EQ2 has for each character on each server... im a stats person, always have been.
Xephus, sorry you had to experience something like that. I hope the other server you are on is better.
"That Other Game"(tm) was my first MMORPG. I'm always an in your face take the pain and hit back sort of character type. Warrior was a good fit. I read the forums here for better information and found out that, while Warrior is very versatile, you really have a set path to follow. Unless you wanted to be labelled gimp.
Now, I had no problems with being the best one can be at a job. And I don't view this as elitism until you start going over board and saying it is the "only" way to play x job. But the fact that I couldn't use a sword (preferred weapon) because it wouldn't be "best", made me start to understand the constrained path that exists. If I want to use a sword, I'd have to be a Paladin, or a G.Sword toting Dark Knight. Fortunately, Paladin is my calling in "That Other Game"(tm) and I haven't looked back.
In EQ2, I've noticed warriors with sword and board, 2h swords, axes, bo's, etc. I find that quite refreshing. Of course the fact that the fighter archetype branches out in so many different directions, yet accomplish pretty much the same thing is also a great thing. Because of such a balance, the job elitism facet is practically, imho, all but snuffed out. Until end game idiosynchrasies starts to come to light of course.
*Off topic*
The One and Only ffreak:
To say PLD is second choice to NIN, is not really well informed. BRD and RDM are useful, but a PLD worth their salt should be able to have the ability to make juice if it's needed, or at the very least have the space to carry a good number of bottles. So as long as there's a healer (massive DD or nuker groups aside, which party doesn't have a healer?) PLDs will have no trouble tanking in nearly all exp situations. Yes, you'll have more downtime but PLDs can be great tanks, depending on the player.
From my experience, NINs "require" a second provoker to take hate so they can get shadows back up. As a WAR and not main tank, I'd have to provoke the mob so the NIN can cast Utsusemi. Without the second tank and a goodly boost to evade, NINs can go down almost as fast as a WHM with no armor if they can't get their shadows up. Of course, one could cast stun or sleep on the mob to replace a second tank. NINs are required to spend a crazy amount of gil to be exceptional tanks. Primary hate holding for NINs would be the fact that they don't take damage but that's not enough. They need to use other powders, shuriken, etc. NINs can be great tanks too, depending on the player.
With the two aside each other, there may be an impression that PLD is more reliable in hate holding. They do not require someone else to do anything. Refresh is good, but with juice they don't have to worry too much. NINs need a way to incapacitate the mob so they can recast their shadows. Without them, NINs don't last long.
Now, as I said, both are great tanks if the player playing them is skilled. That's why you have both (plus WARs!). As to preference, there are different types of mobs (HNMs, BCNM, Avatars, take your pick) that calls for different tanks. Fast hitting mobs tear through shadows and eat the NIN for dessert. Slow, but super hard hitting mobs can slam a PLD to the ground.
"That Other Game"(tm) was my first MMORPG. I'm always an in your face take the pain and hit back sort of character type. Warrior was a good fit. I read the forums here for better information and found out that, while Warrior is very versatile, you really have a set path to follow. Unless you wanted to be labelled gimp.
Now, I had no problems with being the best one can be at a job. And I don't view this as elitism until you start going over board and saying it is the "only" way to play x job. But the fact that I couldn't use a sword (preferred weapon) because it wouldn't be "best", made me start to understand the constrained path that exists. If I want to use a sword, I'd have to be a Paladin, or a G.Sword toting Dark Knight. Fortunately, Paladin is my calling in "That Other Game"(tm) and I haven't looked back.
In EQ2, I've noticed warriors with sword and board, 2h swords, axes, bo's, etc. I find that quite refreshing. Of course the fact that the fighter archetype branches out in so many different directions, yet accomplish pretty much the same thing is also a great thing. Because of such a balance, the job elitism facet is practically, imho, all but snuffed out. Until end game idiosynchrasies starts to come to light of course.
*Off topic*
The One and Only ffreak:
To say PLD is second choice to NIN, is not really well informed. BRD and RDM are useful, but a PLD worth their salt should be able to have the ability to make juice if it's needed, or at the very least have the space to carry a good number of bottles. So as long as there's a healer (massive DD or nuker groups aside, which party doesn't have a healer?) PLDs will have no trouble tanking in nearly all exp situations. Yes, you'll have more downtime but PLDs can be great tanks, depending on the player.
From my experience, NINs "require" a second provoker to take hate so they can get shadows back up. As a WAR and not main tank, I'd have to provoke the mob so the NIN can cast Utsusemi. Without the second tank and a goodly boost to evade, NINs can go down almost as fast as a WHM with no armor if they can't get their shadows up. Of course, one could cast stun or sleep on the mob to replace a second tank. NINs are required to spend a crazy amount of gil to be exceptional tanks. Primary hate holding for NINs would be the fact that they don't take damage but that's not enough. They need to use other powders, shuriken, etc. NINs can be great tanks too, depending on the player.
With the two aside each other, there may be an impression that PLD is more reliable in hate holding. They do not require someone else to do anything. Refresh is good, but with juice they don't have to worry too much. NINs need a way to incapacitate the mob so they can recast their shadows. Without them, NINs don't last long.
Now, as I said, both are great tanks if the player playing them is skilled. That's why you have both (plus WARs!). As to preference, there are different types of mobs (HNMs, BCNM, Avatars, take your pick) that calls for different tanks. Fast hitting mobs tear through shadows and eat the NIN for dessert. Slow, but super hard hitting mobs can slam a PLD to the ground.
Quote:
To say PLD is second choice to NIN, is not really well informed. BRD and RDM are useful, but a PLD worth their salt should be able to have the ability to make juice if it's needed, or at the very least have the space to carry a good number of bottles. So as long as there's a healer (massive DD or nuker groups aside, which party doesn't have a healer?) PLDs will have no trouble tanking in nearly all exp situations. Yes, you'll have more downtime but PLDs can be great tanks, depending on the player.
From my experience, NINs "require" a second provoker to take hate so they can get shadows back up. As a WAR and not main tank, I'd have to provoke the mob so the NIN can cast Utsusemi. Without the second tank and a goodly boost to evade, NINs can go down almost as fast as a WHM with no armor if they can't get their shadows up. Of course, one could cast stun or sleep on the mob to replace a second tank. NINs are required to spend a crazy amount of gil to be exceptional tanks. Primary hate holding for NINs would be the fact that they don't take damage but that's not enough. They need to use other powders, shuriken, etc. NINs can be great tanks too, depending on the player.
With the two aside each other, there may be an impression that PLD is more reliable in hate holding. They do not require someone else to do anything. Refresh is good, but with juice they don't have to worry too much. NINs need a way to incapacitate the mob so they can recast their shadows. Without them, NINs don't last long.
Now, as I said, both are great tanks if the player playing them is skilled. That's why you have both (plus WARs!). As to preference, there are different types of mobs (HNMs, BCNM, Avatars, take your pick) that calls for different tanks. Fast hitting mobs tear through shadows and eat the NIN for dessert. Slow, but super hard hitting mobs can slam a PLD to the ground.
From my experience, NINs "require" a second provoker to take hate so they can get shadows back up. As a WAR and not main tank, I'd have to provoke the mob so the NIN can cast Utsusemi. Without the second tank and a goodly boost to evade, NINs can go down almost as fast as a WHM with no armor if they can't get their shadows up. Of course, one could cast stun or sleep on the mob to replace a second tank. NINs are required to spend a crazy amount of gil to be exceptional tanks. Primary hate holding for NINs would be the fact that they don't take damage but that's not enough. They need to use other powders, shuriken, etc. NINs can be great tanks too, depending on the player.
With the two aside each other, there may be an impression that PLD is more reliable in hate holding. They do not require someone else to do anything. Refresh is good, but with juice they don't have to worry too much. NINs need a way to incapacitate the mob so they can recast their shadows. Without them, NINs don't last long.
Now, as I said, both are great tanks if the player playing them is skilled. That's why you have both (plus WARs!). As to preference, there are different types of mobs (HNMs, BCNM, Avatars, take your pick) that calls for different tanks. Fast hitting mobs tear through shadows and eat the NIN for dessert. Slow, but super hard hitting mobs can slam a PLD to the ground.
Off topic
Point taken. I would like to further our discussion but this is not the place. I'm sending PM if you don't mind.
Point taken. I would like to further our discussion but this is not the place. I'm sending PM if you don't mind.
This was certainly not meant to be a PLD vs NIN thread, but I also notice that most HNM's PLD's were the FIRST choice as kite vokers. They hold hate. Ninjas must work very hard to hold hate, and be skilled. Both can tank. No, Ninjas were not first choices on Ramuh, and there were very few Ninjas with reputations good enough to be picked over bread and butter Paladins. My LS was filled with whms, blm's, wars, mnks, etc etc...and as I said, all but 2 preferred Pld tank over Nin simply because there was a big lack of skilled ninja tanks. I knew of 2 that were really very good myself, and both were Japanese players. Not saying that there were no NA good ninja tanks, but most...frankly....were pretty gimped as far as tanking went.
I also hate it when people bring up "I'm higher level than you so I must know more" ...common sense is worth more than levels.
BTW... I never met a NIN that could hold hate off me. Ever. I held hate off Freeze MB's, Sidewinder, I held hate off a lvl 70 Blm spamming nukes like crazy trying to help me get some of my AF. Skill > job. Your opinion is noted, filed... but unfortunately all I can say is I disagree with much of what you're saying.
Now I'm ending this, as said, it is NOT a Pld vs. Nin thread. I've chewed on that bone enough times on the FFXI forums. If you wish to continue the debate or "get the last word" be my guest, but you probably would be wasting your time, since my opinions are pretty set, as yours are probably set as well.
I also hate it when people bring up "I'm higher level than you so I must know more" ...common sense is worth more than levels.
BTW... I never met a NIN that could hold hate off me. Ever. I held hate off Freeze MB's, Sidewinder, I held hate off a lvl 70 Blm spamming nukes like crazy trying to help me get some of my AF. Skill > job. Your opinion is noted, filed... but unfortunately all I can say is I disagree with much of what you're saying.
Now I'm ending this, as said, it is NOT a Pld vs. Nin thread. I've chewed on that bone enough times on the FFXI forums. If you wish to continue the debate or "get the last word" be my guest, but you probably would be wasting your time, since my opinions are pretty set, as yours are probably set as well.
I must agree about the beginning post about FFXI. I bought FFXI the day it came out and played it up until a week ago (two days after I bought EQ2. I always said FFXI was the best mmorpg I had ever played...until I got EQ2. In FXI everyone is always busy as hell trying to strive for thebest gear, best weapon, best everything and don't haver time to help anyone. I quit as a 50DRK 50BLM 40SAM 40RNG w/ almost all my jobs above 20 but it took me a LONG time to get there. I always helped everyone every chance I got but in the entire year + that I played it was never easy to get help w/ anything unless you had a extremely good LS. I like EQ2 for one reason being that it is never hard to find help (so far) Everyone seems to be a lot more laid back and courteos. Everyone is not trying to go 120MPH to meet all there goals at one time. I have only been playing a couple weeks but I love this game. It may lack a few things that I love about FFXI but all together I would recomend this game over FFXI any day of the week.
It is WAY too hard to make money and find parties in FFXI as well. My character was a 60Goldsmith so I had no troubles w/ money but it took me a year + over 10 mil to get it there. Anyway...just wanted to say that this game is way less time consuming and I love it. It actually feels like a game and not a second job.
It is WAY too hard to make money and find parties in FFXI as well. My character was a 60Goldsmith so I had no troubles w/ money but it took me a year + over 10 mil to get it there. Anyway...just wanted to say that this game is way less time consuming and I love it. It actually feels like a game and not a second job.
35 posts
I think Sony took lessons from FFXI. Have you noticed how the armor and weapons become more effective at different lvls? There's really no way to uber-twink, as all the best gear will suck on a low-lvl, so while you'd be able to twink to some extent, there's really no way to be elitist in this game until the point where it becomes a benefit and not a game-killer
actually did you know FF11 already released in Japan more than 1 year before it had been release in US? so japanese already played this game for more than 1 year. if you are a heavy gamer, you can max out a class easily in 1 year.
the more time you spent on something the better result you can get. dont complain like "I got 5 kids to feed, I got a night shift to run, I got 6 courses to attend". everyone got different life style. someone can play 24/7 when they are at early 20s or 30s and dont need to worry about money. I have seen someone play everynight for 6 hours after work and can still get the best gear in the game.
seriously, its really depense on how do you see about this. someone treat this as an "entertainment". someone treat this as a "job". which sounds crazy but again the more time u spend on something the better result you can get. so base on this fact, I can conclude there is nothing a game developers can do to get a game 100% fair. because there are "ALWAYS" someone blame "how come he got better gears, equipment and more gils than I do? its not fair"
when I was in FF11, I work on fishing alot because I can earn more and faster by fishing than other skill and hunting. but fishing is very very very hard to level(if you had played FF11 you will know) but still I spend 2/3 of the game time to fish. I could spend 8 hours "IN A ROLL" in 3 weeks just fishing. no exp gaining. nothing. just fish. but I can only get 1 or 2 lvl up within that 3 weeks. but serious I earn quite a bit of gils.
the more time you spent on something the better result you can get. dont complain like "I got 5 kids to feed, I got a night shift to run, I got 6 courses to attend". everyone got different life style. someone can play 24/7 when they are at early 20s or 30s and dont need to worry about money. I have seen someone play everynight for 6 hours after work and can still get the best gear in the game.
seriously, its really depense on how do you see about this. someone treat this as an "entertainment". someone treat this as a "job". which sounds crazy but again the more time u spend on something the better result you can get. so base on this fact, I can conclude there is nothing a game developers can do to get a game 100% fair. because there are "ALWAYS" someone blame "how come he got better gears, equipment and more gils than I do? its not fair"
when I was in FF11, I work on fishing alot because I can earn more and faster by fishing than other skill and hunting. but fishing is very very very hard to level(if you had played FF11 you will know) but still I spend 2/3 of the game time to fish. I could spend 8 hours "IN A ROLL" in 3 weeks just fishing. no exp gaining. nothing. just fish. but I can only get 1 or 2 lvl up within that 3 weeks. but serious I earn quite a bit of gils.
When making a long, persuasive argument it is usually more effective to give people a teaser or a notion of where you are going; so they will finish reading it.
Thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts and opinions.
My thoughts are listed below in the thread.
Thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts and opinions.
My thoughts are listed below in the thread.
As a NA player who played every class and had one to 55 I must say that I disagree with you.
Yes, it was easier to level after I had some gil in the bank and a sub supporting me, but I saw the Japanese players as a positive example. I partied with them and learned how to skill chain. It was a non-English speaking Japanese character who taught me the secrets to mining, and to fishing. They taught me the great places to level and what is possible in a great group.
You are most definately wrong to say that is is not right to expect 200+ per kill. That should be the norm. Once I learned how to play at this level from the Japanese I trained others. Did you know that you could get over 700 per kill? (I only got over 500 myself).
Also, I never had a Peacock Charm to start (about 3 million gil short, lol) but I always took the time to have the best spells and best gear. Did I always set leveling records this way? No. It is not conducive to the level grind this way, but if you want to be the best, you take the time to gear up.
My point is that I believe it is your state of mind that is off here. The help was there for the asking.
However, I do agree with your basic premise that there should have been NA only (or mostly) servers. It would have left more secrets to be discovered, more camps uncamped by bots, and most definately made it easier to find parties.
Yes, it was easier to level after I had some gil in the bank and a sub supporting me, but I saw the Japanese players as a positive example. I partied with them and learned how to skill chain. It was a non-English speaking Japanese character who taught me the secrets to mining, and to fishing. They taught me the great places to level and what is possible in a great group.
You are most definately wrong to say that is is not right to expect 200+ per kill. That should be the norm. Once I learned how to play at this level from the Japanese I trained others. Did you know that you could get over 700 per kill? (I only got over 500 myself).
Also, I never had a Peacock Charm to start (about 3 million gil short, lol) but I always took the time to have the best spells and best gear. Did I always set leveling records this way? No. It is not conducive to the level grind this way, but if you want to be the best, you take the time to gear up.
My point is that I believe it is your state of mind that is off here. The help was there for the asking.
However, I do agree with your basic premise that there should have been NA only (or mostly) servers. It would have left more secrets to be discovered, more camps uncamped by bots, and most definately made it easier to find parties.
6 posts
IMO
The human race is dependent upon competition as a baser instinct, its called survival, and it applies to anything. To compete and overcome is to survive. Whether it be in a real life situation or a virtual world. Therefore the hopes of the idealist fall short. It is one thing to want EQ2 vets to set examples for the newer people, and some will set good examples mind you. But to think that its possible we can all do this? Thats obsurd, our need for competition will ultimately prevail.
Blacktharne is 100% correct. Play the game in manner that is most entertaining to you. People are going to twink no matter what example you try to set for them. Most of the people playing this game came from EQ1 or any other MMORPG for that matter and already have this elitist attitude imbedded in there heads.
Now on the flipside, Yuniko has a very valid point as well, these games would be alot more fun if competition wasnt such a huge factor. But this is an example of idealism at its finest and its not going to happen.
In conclusion, if you dont agree with elitisim, simply don't do it. It all comes back to being accepted. The people who are preaching about how wrong elitism is and how WE should set an example are most likely the people who feel left out when there character isnt "uber" enough to fit in. Simply play the game and have fun, if you aren't having fun then quit.
Edited, Wed Nov 24 13:13:14 2004 by Alberich
The human race is dependent upon competition as a baser instinct, its called survival, and it applies to anything. To compete and overcome is to survive. Whether it be in a real life situation or a virtual world. Therefore the hopes of the idealist fall short. It is one thing to want EQ2 vets to set examples for the newer people, and some will set good examples mind you. But to think that its possible we can all do this? Thats obsurd, our need for competition will ultimately prevail.
Blacktharne is 100% correct. Play the game in manner that is most entertaining to you. People are going to twink no matter what example you try to set for them. Most of the people playing this game came from EQ1 or any other MMORPG for that matter and already have this elitist attitude imbedded in there heads.
Now on the flipside, Yuniko has a very valid point as well, these games would be alot more fun if competition wasnt such a huge factor. But this is an example of idealism at its finest and its not going to happen.
In conclusion, if you dont agree with elitisim, simply don't do it. It all comes back to being accepted. The people who are preaching about how wrong elitism is and how WE should set an example are most likely the people who feel left out when there character isnt "uber" enough to fit in. Simply play the game and have fun, if you aren't having fun then quit.
Edited, Wed Nov 24 13:13:14 2004 by Alberich
The problem is - to point out to several posters - that a lot of us DIDN'T HAVE TIME to fish for 8 hours a day, or farm for 8 hours a day. FFXI and SE made it such a time sink game that it was very casual player UNfriendly. I work 10-13 hours a day. When I got home, I wanted to play a game... not sit there and macro fish for hours on end, or farm bees. Yes, that's what I did because I refused to be gimped.... but was it fun? No. Did I enjoy the game after the first few months? No. If it weren't for my LS I'd have dropped FFXI a long time ago, but I had some great friends on that game that cheered me up when it looked like I'd never be able to afford the gear that was "must have or else you suck". No game should be like a job.
At least in this game I can log on for 2 hours after work, do a quest or 3, or maybe go out and solo some mobs for exp until I have time to group or do major quests. Not possible in FFXI. You have 2 hours to play? Guess what, you can farm or fish. Neither are fun, at least not after 12 hours at work. It was like coming home and doing more work.
At least in this game I can log on for 2 hours after work, do a quest or 3, or maybe go out and solo some mobs for exp until I have time to group or do major quests. Not possible in FFXI. You have 2 hours to play? Guess what, you can farm or fish. Neither are fun, at least not after 12 hours at work. It was like coming home and doing more work.
39 posts
My thoughts exactly. I played FFXI for about 6 months, spent a lot time farming for gear just so i could have something better than the next person. This competition for having the uber most gear finally got to me when i got to lvl 60 with my Dark Knight. Basically it came to the point that if i didnt have the body peice called the Haubergeon (wich i drooled at everday) i was just a lame duck. You are very correct on the point that the mobs that parties would fight were way to high of lvl to get exp from, at lvl 60 as a darknight i was in need of about a 25-30 accuracy bonus from my equipment just to be able to hit the mob. What kind of crap is that? Accuracy bonus equipment was the most expensive type of gear in the game, so it came to the point that if i didnt spend months straight farming (or buying gil online) i could never enjoy the game. FFXI was too money oriented, numerous times you would have to pay people just to get help, and these were large sums of money not just a few gil. Myself once paid a lvl 75 paladin 75k gil so i could get my Genkai 1 quest done, i tried many times before that to complete the quest with people of my own lvl but i had some terrible luck. Anyways im rambling, im excited that im starting in a new economy and have not even heard someone say to someone else "hey man you gear sucks, we dont want you here." Which i heard numerous times from the FFXI community. And i hope to set a good example for the noobs that will come down the road in the future (by then i hope my lvl 12 predtor will be a finely tuned ranger!). But yes, the main point where FFXI went wrong was the economy, i quit after 6 months soley based on this. I dont think its right to have to farm for a month straight or to buy gil online just to enjoy the game. Good thread!
2 posts
ok after carefully reading all these posts here, i have to say u all have some valiable information and rants. For the most part i agree, but i played ff when it first came out for NA. Until recently or when eq2 came out, i was actaully having fun with it, despite the gil, lfg, and trying to lv. The main reson i finally have stopped playing ff is the fact it was getting boring to try and lv to 75 than do it all again, or to sit and wait for hours on end to camp HNM's. That does seem to get boring and seems a waste of time, if u happen to get the mob than ya having 1mill is nice but that isnt the case as we all know it.
If square had made more of an effort to have zones that you could level with by yourself, an easier way to make gil, i think that may have kept some people on. At least with eq2 i can level solo and with groups depending on my mood. I really do like this part of the game, as well as the quests are easy to a point.
Yet as some have said we could sit here all nite and rant about what went wrong, maybe this will teach us something maybe not. Time will tell.
If square had made more of an effort to have zones that you could level with by yourself, an easier way to make gil, i think that may have kept some people on. At least with eq2 i can level solo and with groups depending on my mood. I really do like this part of the game, as well as the quests are easy to a point.
Yet as some have said we could sit here all nite and rant about what went wrong, maybe this will teach us something maybe not. Time will tell.
I didn't really have a problem with FFXI's elitism. Perhaps due to the timezone, we NAs kinda played together since that was when most of us were on. Twinking? It was part of the game. Not an undesirable thing that the developers couldn't remove or discourage... but an integral part of it. Else you wouldn't have been able to change jobs and Square had better not charge me more for Content IDs.
A year later and my gear and tactics don't differ much at all from my JP counterparts. What really got me was the timesinks. I don't mind the 'elitism' since it was egalitarian and affected all newbies anyway. [Poor EUs ^^] but the time.... spending an hour farming for every hour levelling? FFXI got as close to 'work' as I can imagine a game becoming. If there was a first person shooter that got as close to war as FFXI got to work, we'd have blood on the monitor. How many people do YOU know, were on 24/7? Either levelling, farming or in bazaar mode?
Why would it be any different in EQ2? Well not now.. so I'm going to enjoy it while I can.
But FFXI did get quite a few things right. It hooked you with good stories, colourful characters [I'm going to MISS my CATARU] and just the 'FF'ness of it all. Most of all, I'm going to miss the Jobs. Want a Warp II? (Change Job). Need a Teleport? A tank? A healer? Bard? I could do it all, just wait for me while I go see my Moogie ^^
*In EQ1, you had to trust someone or find a safe place to transfer loot. It's a lot easier now in EQ2 to twink yourself.
Anyway, here's to a great first year for each and every one of us. Let's all enjoy it while it lasts and even past then.
A year later and my gear and tactics don't differ much at all from my JP counterparts. What really got me was the timesinks. I don't mind the 'elitism' since it was egalitarian and affected all newbies anyway. [Poor EUs ^^] but the time.... spending an hour farming for every hour levelling? FFXI got as close to 'work' as I can imagine a game becoming. If there was a first person shooter that got as close to war as FFXI got to work, we'd have blood on the monitor. How many people do YOU know, were on 24/7? Either levelling, farming or in bazaar mode?
Why would it be any different in EQ2? Well not now.. so I'm going to enjoy it while I can.
But FFXI did get quite a few things right. It hooked you with good stories, colourful characters [I'm going to MISS my CATARU] and just the 'FF'ness of it all. Most of all, I'm going to miss the Jobs. Want a Warp II? (Change Job). Need a Teleport? A tank? A healer? Bard? I could do it all, just wait for me while I go see my Moogie ^^
*In EQ1, you had to trust someone or find a safe place to transfer loot. It's a lot easier now in EQ2 to twink yourself.
Anyway, here's to a great first year for each and every one of us. Let's all enjoy it while it lasts and even past then.
1 post
Longtime user of Allakhazam.com with my first ever post!
Very briefly, EQ2 imo is not as friendly as any of the other MMO's I've started in (FFXI, SWG, WoW). At least it seems that way on my server - Steamfont.
9/10 of the players will ignore when asked for help with seemingly simple questions. I've complimented several guilds upon reaching level enough for their tags to show and every one has replied with: "we don't need any more members, sorry" or worse "we don't need any more members, go away." Who's asking to join!? I certainly didn't. So it seems as though Guilds are already building their old EQ egos again.
EQ2 doesn't feel new at all. It feels very similar to old EQ. Sure the gameplay is very different. But most of the players have come from EQ and have brought their attitudes with them.
I'll continue playing because so far I love the game (despite the fact that I'm dumb to many aspects of it since information isn't readily available in game). Due to the attitudes I've noticed in groups (I remain silent in most group situations), I've decided to solo.
I hope that other servers are more friendly. Have fun everyone and please remember: IT IS ONLY A GAME!
Very briefly, EQ2 imo is not as friendly as any of the other MMO's I've started in (FFXI, SWG, WoW). At least it seems that way on my server - Steamfont.
9/10 of the players will ignore when asked for help with seemingly simple questions. I've complimented several guilds upon reaching level enough for their tags to show and every one has replied with: "we don't need any more members, sorry" or worse "we don't need any more members, go away." Who's asking to join!? I certainly didn't. So it seems as though Guilds are already building their old EQ egos again.
EQ2 doesn't feel new at all. It feels very similar to old EQ. Sure the gameplay is very different. But most of the players have come from EQ and have brought their attitudes with them.
I'll continue playing because so far I love the game (despite the fact that I'm dumb to many aspects of it since information isn't readily available in game). Due to the attitudes I've noticed in groups (I remain silent in most group situations), I've decided to solo.
I hope that other servers are more friendly. Have fun everyone and please remember: IT IS ONLY A GAME!
Sorry, but I didn't think FFXI had a story much at all. Between weeks and weeks of leveling and now and then doing a mission, you got a little tid bit of a story. Only one I really remember was Fickbix (Poor Fickie!!!!) other than that....what story? Oh yeah...the Shadow Lord and some weird little kid you heard about every other month.
The NPC's were pretty bland too, IMHO. I like EQ NPCS a lot better, because they not only talk...they all have personality. I mean...Blort. Everyone in Freeport knows Blort. In the Scale Yard Myvm Sahiv walks around insulting other races and greeting his brother Iksar, bowing to the merchants and sitting down now and then. They seem like real people, not just puppets standing there for looks saying the same 2 lines over and over.
Though FFXI did have some NPC names that made me laugh. Dazi Nosuk. Dry Bone. Lame Deer (Bigcatman of our LS swore Lame Deer was THE MAN!) and Trion. But those are the only ones I remember. All else was just a blur of names and 2 sentence loops.
To the poster diectly above, it sounds like you got on a very unfriendly server. Lucan D'Lere has its share of asshats (pardon the language) but it's also got some really nice people. Maybe it's a bit more casual because it's an RP server. FFXI got to be no different at mid to higher levels. I distinctly....and still have nightmares about... trying to find help for GK1, and my PLD AF which I never did get past my boots, and I tried for 3 months. By the time I found my LS (I miss those guys!!!! ;_;) I had already retired PLD do to the fact that no one ever seemed to want to help anyone else unless there were large amounts of gil involved. I think you get this in any online game, really. Sad, but true.
Edited, Sun Nov 28 16:10:50 2004 by Ivven
The NPC's were pretty bland too, IMHO. I like EQ NPCS a lot better, because they not only talk...they all have personality. I mean...Blort. Everyone in Freeport knows Blort. In the Scale Yard Myvm Sahiv walks around insulting other races and greeting his brother Iksar, bowing to the merchants and sitting down now and then. They seem like real people, not just puppets standing there for looks saying the same 2 lines over and over.
Though FFXI did have some NPC names that made me laugh. Dazi Nosuk. Dry Bone. Lame Deer (Bigcatman of our LS swore Lame Deer was THE MAN!) and Trion. But those are the only ones I remember. All else was just a blur of names and 2 sentence loops.
To the poster diectly above, it sounds like you got on a very unfriendly server. Lucan D'Lere has its share of asshats (pardon the language) but it's also got some really nice people. Maybe it's a bit more casual because it's an RP server. FFXI got to be no different at mid to higher levels. I distinctly....and still have nightmares about... trying to find help for GK1, and my PLD AF which I never did get past my boots, and I tried for 3 months. By the time I found my LS (I miss those guys!!!! ;_;) I had already retired PLD do to the fact that no one ever seemed to want to help anyone else unless there were large amounts of gil involved. I think you get this in any online game, really. Sad, but true.
Edited, Sun Nov 28 16:10:50 2004 by Ivven
The post the OP made couldnt have been said better. Id like to see this post in a forum in the FFxi part of allakazam
Scholar
41 posts
i think im "qualified" so speak about ffxi being 75 blm/whm and having spent some, if not a whole lot of time in the high end game with (in my biased opinion) the best NA HNM linkshell on my server. I have noticed the "elitest" attitude throughout ffxi, and i think this is a result of ffxi being a largely gear based game. A great player in ok gear is going to be outplayed by a good player in great gear most of the time. Once you get higher level, everyone starts to look the same and it really gets boring. Then you have the recently added problems of IGE and such ruining the economy (along with people buying from them), and the constant bickering between JP and NA players. On my server you had the case of a JP player /help'ing a mob (basically making it so it no longer gives items/experience) that by many is considered the hardest mob in the game, and can take upwards of 5-10 hours to collect the spawn items for. Also the constant bickering amongst NA players themselves gets pretty old pretty quick with consant mob stealing and MPK attempts. The "community" in FFxi is really fragmented at best...another huge issue in high-end ffxi is latency (JP players see mobs well before NA players in a game where a split second makes a big difference)
I'm looking foward to eq2 (ordering it this week if i can get my hands on a copy) and hope it will be what im looking for..
(sorry i didnt read allll the posts beforehand so i apologize if i repeated something :) )
(edit)- added stuff about latency and NA mpk >_<
Edited, Mon Nov 29 00:39:02 2004 by relitowel
I'm looking foward to eq2 (ordering it this week if i can get my hands on a copy) and hope it will be what im looking for..
(sorry i didnt read allll the posts beforehand so i apologize if i repeated something :) )
(edit)- added stuff about latency and NA mpk >_<
Edited, Mon Nov 29 00:39:02 2004 by relitowel
Quote:
Sorry, but I didn't think FFXI had a story much at all. Between weeks and weeks of leveling and now and then doing a mission, you got a little tid bit of a story. Only one I really remember was Fickbix (Poor Fickie!!!!) other than that....what story? Oh yeah...the Shadow Lord and some weird little kid you heard about every other month.
*OFF-TOPIC RANT OF A REPLY ENCLOSED*
You're level 55. Zilart missions done? Promathia missions done, up to the battle where you can't go further until the next update? Ranks 6-10 done for every country?
No? Then don't talk about no story. I'm level 48, I'm Rank 5, but I know FF has a story, just that I haven't experienced much of it yet.
Of course, if you wanna rant about how you can't ge it all at level 55, feel free, I rant about that all the time.
Way to go resurrecting a dead thread. You're now a Thread Necromancer!
Scholar
17 posts
Stu, please bring back the necroposter award.
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