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#27 Nov 17 2004 at 11:13 AM Rating: Default
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However, you said not to invite Enchanters because you can't be bothered with watching your AoE's. That is just a very stupid thing to say.


That was a joke. But my point was that Enchanters and their mezzes aren't necessarily the best thing in every situation.
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#28 Nov 17 2004 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I am an experienced tank and I do have trouble with 3 things in a group. Even when I tell them many groups I have cannot seem to assist my targets and it makes it alot more difficult to hold hate. Another problem is spellcasters using AOE in crowded zones. The last one is I keep running into people that can't understand the concept of pulling and tend to just run out with me regardless of what I tell them. Other than that everything is great :P.
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#29 Nov 17 2004 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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That's a red herring. You have changed the meaning of my argument and attacked the false version of the argument.

My argument is:

Tank should use shout and AOE to get mobs onto themselves, everyone else should use AOE too and we don't necessarily need an Enchanter. Specifically I used BB as an example since many of us should be familiar with it.


Ohhhh no.. Dont' try to wiggle out of it now. That wasn't your arguement. Let me quote you:

esamatti wrote:
Don't group with enchanters. They are living in a EQ1 dream world where they want to keep everything mezzed and will constantly be pissed off at everyone. :P


I never argued that you shouldn't use AoE's when nobody is doing crowd control. I never said we needed an enhanter either.
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#30 Nov 17 2004 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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That's a red herring. You have changed the meaning of my argument and attacked the false version of the argument.


Someone has taken a logic class =)

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Bottom line, chains of AoEs are good, if you have an enchanter in the group then there is no need to use the aoe lines, instead use concentrated single target HOs, single target ability attacks/spells. If you dont have an enchanter then an all out assult (not just the so named ability) to draw as much attention to yourself (if you are the MA/MT) as possible to keep mobs from wandering off. The more mobs that are hitting you means less mobs hitting other characters, which in turn means the fewer people the healer has to heal, which finally means priests have more mana and use it more efficiently.

That is what I am putting forth here.
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#31 Nov 17 2004 at 11:19 AM Rating: Default
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esamatti wrote:
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Don't group with enchanters. They are living in a EQ1 dream world where they want to keep everything mezzed and will constantly be pissed off at everyone. :P
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I never argued that you shouldn't use AoE's when nobody is doing crowd control. I never said we needed an enhanter either.


And when I said that I wasn't talking to you. So, it doesn't matter what you were talking about. I was making an argument against the idea that Tanks and folks shouldn't use AOE.



Edited, Wed Nov 17 11:19:19 2004 by esamatti
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#32 Nov 17 2004 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
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Hehe, this is pointless. After a while it will become apparent, what I have been saying.
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#33 Nov 17 2004 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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And when I said that I wasn't talking to you.


Oh you weren't? Hmm... stop trying to wiggle your way out of this.. Let me refresh your memory a bit more

subvert wrote:

esamatti wrote:
Don't group with enchanters. They are living in a EQ1 dream world where they want to keep everything mezzed and will constantly be pissed off at everyone. :P


That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day but it's still early.


esamatti wrote:
I thought you'd like it. It's true. I enjoy the group I'm in a lot better if there isn't a pissed off Enchanter in the group... Unless they understand the following:


From your response, it's clear that you statement was directly geared towards me and what I said.

Quote:
I was making an argument against the idea that Tanks and folks shouldn't use AOE.


You're arguing with an imaginary poster then because nobody said that.

Edited, Wed Nov 17 11:27:41 2004 by subvert
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#34 Nov 17 2004 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I am an experienced tank and I do have trouble with 3 things in a group. Even when I tell them many groups I have cannot seem to assist my targets and it makes it alot more difficult to hold hate. Another problem is spellcasters using AOE in crowded zones. The last one is I keep running into people that can't understand the concept of pulling and tend to just run out with me regardless of what I tell them. Other than that everything is great :P.


That might have been true in other games and even in EQ1, but it is becoming ever increasingly clear to me that we don't necessarily have to do the pulling thing.

As far as keeping the agro on the tank goes, it is a lot easier when we are all in the fight together.

I say take the whole party into the spawn after the tank gets a solid lead on the agro.
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#35 Nov 17 2004 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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esamatti wrote:
Hehe, this is pointless. After a while it will become apparent, what I have been saying.



Ohhh come on!! It's just in good fun. Nothing passes time faster when I'm bored at work than a good Weinernet debate.
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#36 Nov 17 2004 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
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esamatti wrote:
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I thought you'd like it. It's true. I enjoy the group I'm in a lot better if there isn't a pissed off Enchanter in the group... Unless they understand the following:
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From your response, it's clear that you statement was directly geared towards me and what I said.


No when I wrote my post your's wasn't up yet. But once I saw what you had managed to get in before mine, I anticipated your responce.

Hey, I have no reason to wiggle out of this. I am right. lol. And I am quite prepared to debate this with you all day long if I wanted to. But, you haven't been able to put forth any valid responces to my arguments or even any supporting statements of your own argument. If you will just go and try the things I have said you will see that I am right.

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#37 Nov 17 2004 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
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I am trying to go back to work though so talk to you later.
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#38 Nov 17 2004 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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That might have been true in other games and even in EQ1, but it is becoming ever increasingly clear to me that we don't necessarily have to do the pulling thing.


In many situations pulling is not necessary but in many cases, especially yesterday, I needed to pull to keep group mobs from linking. This is very important when your in maze killing dervishes for example. Now if you have an uber group maybe you can just run into the fray.

An example of a fight gone wrong. We were killing lionesses just SW on Nek tower and I went to pull because there was 2 large groups of them. I ran out, shouted, ran back and noticed our predator ran passed me. He then aggrod the other group and someone decided to use AOE to fight so many and hit a HUGE group of deer. It was chaos. 4 people died within 30 seconds and the rest barely fled out.

Was pretty funny though :P
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#39 Nov 17 2004 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey, I have no reason to wiggle out of this. I am right. lol. And I am quite prepared to debate this with you all day long if I wanted to. But, you haven't been able to put forth any valid responces to my arguments or even any supporting statements of your own argument. If you will just go and try the things I have said you will see that I am right.


Responses to what? That you shouldn't invite Enchanters? You're saying that your AoE's are more important than an entire job? I'd say that's a good argument for you being wrong. You've offered nothing in rebuttal. That's been my point the whole time.

Or, was it that I havn't responded that you shouldn't use AoE's at all? You know why I havn't responded to that? It's because I NEVER SAID IT. I've pointed that out several times to you but you keep missing it. My point was that your AoE's are not more important than an Enchanter's mez's.

You've offered little to prove that they are. Responses like "You have no idea what you're talking about" don't offer a lot in the way of content.

If the mob is asleep, there is no point in waking him up with a crappy AoE. Just because you can't be bothered in restraining yourself, that's not a reason not to invite an enchanter.


Edited, Wed Nov 17 11:56:55 2004 by subvert
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#40 Nov 17 2004 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
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there is also 1 thing I wanna point out.

in EQ 2, your groupmate can just target you, the fighter, than click auto attack than your groupmate will attack you targeted mob. but theres a thing, when there are some non-aggro mobs run pass by you and you targeted it accidently, your groupmate will attack it if they have attack on even thought you dont have attack on. This can happen in less than half a second and you cant stop this. that might cause a big trouble. so selet your target carefully.
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#41 Nov 17 2004 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah that happens alot. Especially in wailing caves. People keep targeting oozes. All you need to do is set a macro to assist the tank. You will never have to TAB or CLICK to a target again :P
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#42 Nov 17 2004 at 1:14 PM Rating: Default
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If the mob is asleep, there is no point in waking him up with a crappy AoE. Just because you can't be bothered in restraining yourself, that's not a reason not to invite an enchanter.


You keep focusing on the part of my post that was a joke. Obviously, I was being silly when I said "don't group with Enchanters"... That's why I did the little stick out my toungue thing (:p) at the end. I thought I already made that clear?

Anyway, here's a repost of what I think is a good guide for "tanks". The last paragraph is a joke, for any who can't see it without me pointing it out.

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Whoever the main tank is, just run right up in the middle of thew spawn and shout. Pulling isn't a very good idea. So far all the spawns seem to be self contained and if you fight the mobs where they lay, it will be less risky than pulling to another location, as far as getting accidental adds.

Next hit em with AOE to sweeten the deal, and start beating on the 1st caster mob if it is there.

If you are a Crusader (like me), then the next thing to do is cast Demonstration of Faith on your self if you are main tank, or on the main tank if it is someone else. It is no hassle to cast because if you have a mob targetted it will cast on you, and if you are assisting someone it will cast on them. I cannot stress this spell enough for Crusaders! Healers will love you because it is a damage absorbing shield, and is almost as good as a heal. Every time it comes back up cast it again...

As long as you are the only person with the agro multiple mobs are not the problem. It makes the healers job easy. So AOE away - everyone!

I fight with groups in BB all the time exactly like this. Often the only Tank and everyone is completely satisfied, and no one dies... Except when someone else decides to be tank, :o

Don't group with enchanters. They are living in a EQ1 dream world where they want to keep everything mezzed and will constantly be pissed off at everyone. :P


Cheers!
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#43 Nov 17 2004 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Happy face or not, I'm not gonna let you wiggle your way out of this by saying it was a joke. You must forget that everything you've said is archived for us all to see. Since you can't remember what you've said and you're too lazy to look it up, let me refresh for you (again):

subvert wrote:
esamatti wrote:
Don't group with enchanters. They are living in a EQ1 dream world where they want to keep everything mezzed and will constantly be pissed off at everyone. :P


That's the stupidest thing I've heard all day but it's still early.


esamatti wrote:
I thought you'd like it. It's true. I enjoy the group I'm in a lot better if there isn't a pissed off Enchanter in the group...


So, you say it was a joke but your post reflects otherwise. You've backed up your previous statement in another post directly after I called you on it. Don't try to play it off and take a little accountability for your statements.

I find it disturbing that the game has been out for only a few weeks now and people are already starting in with the class elitism.


Edited, Wed Nov 17 13:26:38 2004 by subvert
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#44 Nov 17 2004 at 1:28 PM Rating: Default
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Hah, you are blowing it way out of porportion. It was still a joke, and obviously there's truth to it or it would be hard to make it funny.

And you are avoiding all the stuff I said before that that had all the substance.

Edited, Wed Nov 17 13:30:14 2004 by esamatti
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#45 Nov 17 2004 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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esamatti wrote:
Hah, you are blowing it way out of porportion. It was still a joke, and obviously there's truth to it or it would be hard to make it funny.

And you are avoiding all the stuff I said before that that had all the substance.


First, it wasn't ever funny. Well, if you consider stupidity funny, it is but you're laughing at yourself. I don't think that's the kind of funny you meant.

Second, I'm not avoiding anything. You keep trying to change the subject to something that I'm not arguing about. The only point I've tried to make in this whole thread is that your AoE's aren't more important than crowd control if you have it. I never said don't ever use AoE's and I never said that Enchanters were necessary.


Edited, Wed Nov 17 13:40:22 2004 by subvert
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#46 Nov 17 2004 at 1:48 PM Rating: Default
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That's because you need an attitude adjustment. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. If they didn't, oh well... I'm not claiming that my jokes are funny.

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#47 Nov 17 2004 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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Second, I'm not avoiding anything. You keep trying to change the subject to something that I'm not arguing about. The only point I've tried to make in this whole thread is that your AoE's aren't more important than crowd control if you have it. I never said don't ever use AoE's and I never said that Enchanters were necessary.


My original post wasn't a reply to any of your arguments. I made an argument and you responded to it. That means we are debating my argument.
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#48 Nov 17 2004 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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That's because you need an attitude adjustment. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. If they didn't, oh well... I'm not claiming that my jokes are funny.


Very good argument. It supports your statements very strongly. Finally a valid point in this thread.
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#49 Nov 17 2004 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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My original post wasn't a reply to any of your arguments. I made an argument and you responded to it. That means we are debating my argument.


Your replies to my post were in line with what I've been debating this whole time. I'll quote you again (third time now):

Quote:
I thought you'd like it. It's true. I enjoy the group I'm in a lot better if there isn't a pissed off Enchanter in the group...


That's a reply to my statement and is indicative of the subsequent threads and points I've made.

Edited, Wed Nov 17 13:54:37 2004 by subvert
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#50 Nov 17 2004 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
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That's because you need an attitude adjustment. I'm sure someone thought it was funny. If they didn't, oh well... I'm not claiming that my jokes are funny.
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Very good argument. It supports your statements very strongly. Finally a valid point in this thread.


Wish I could say the same about your posts. So far you have succeeded in proving that my joke didn't make you laugh. :)
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#51 Nov 17 2004 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Wish I could say the same about your posts. So far you have succeeded in proving that my joke didn't make you laugh. :)


It wasn't a joke. You proved that in the very next reply by saying "It's true". So which is it? Is it true or is it a joke? You can say it's both but that doesn't detract from the fact that the final game has been out for 2 weeks and you're already a class elitist. Tsk. Tsk.

Sorry to break it to you so hard but your AoE's (or lack of the ability to restrain yourself) are not more important than an entire other class.

Edited, Wed Nov 17 14:02:05 2004 by subvert
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