EU Fan Fest: Dark Knight is a Tank and Greatsword UserFollow

Based on Rog skills, it's unlikely since it's very trait and DoT based - some of which don't stack with WAR or work for any other class (based on developmental skills already in-game.)

Which brings up the other issue - Coming from other MMOs like Ragnarok and XI, it's going to be weird playing an assassin type class that has "the same attack speed" as everyone else despite also being a dual wield class. Considering the potency of their skills it seems like they initially expected to give them extremely fast attack speed but low auto attack/weapon damage, since the huge potency increases seems to be the compensation for that still.

Either way, I expect to see them nerfed/hotfixed an hour or two after patch goes live or the next day.

And what exactly do you define "Dark Knight" as being, then, that you disagree with XIV's proposed version of it?

Historically in Final Fantasy games, the Dark Knight was this guy who wore dark-colored armor, usually used large 2H weapons, and had some dark magic (though not always; See FF4).

In FFXI, the Dark Knight had some Elemental spells nobody used, some Dark Magic (Bio/Drain/Aspir) and some Absorb spells.

Not seeing where you're saying that Yoshi is "taking a dump on the FF Dark Knight Name". Just because the Dark Knight is going to be capable of tanking doesn't mean that they're going to completely re-invent the idea of the Dark Knight class/job/whatever.

As for Bard... what exactly IS a Bard in FF History? A Bard is someone who uses songs. Older FFs had them using harps as a hilariously weak offensive weapon. In FFXIV, the Bard does indeed have songs, but also uses bows. So basically... all they did was add Bows to the bards and made the songs a bit less used. The game's design did not allow for a pure-support character, so there was no need to put a spammy pure support class in the game, so they had to have Something else other than just Songs, so they combined Ranger and Bard into one class (which was a good idea IMO).

So tell me, Lass5... are you complaining because Dark Knight and Bard are "in name only", or are you merely just complaining because you don't like that Dark Knight appears to borrow ideas from WoW's Death Knight? Be real with us here; what you said doesn't really fly.

Actually Cecil used a shield and was the best at absorbing damage for the party even when he was a dark knight. He had exactly one dark magic ability (dark sword) that allowed him to perform an AoE attack at the expense of some of his HP. Nobody used it.



I think Edward could actually use bows if you gave them to him. But his harps had useful status effects attached to them.

I do kind of wish that the XIV version hadn't combined BRD and RNG into a single class, but I understand why they did it. I actually really like the idea of a support job, but it's an absolute nightmare to balance that into the tank/healer/dps trinity. Just look at Rift. They tried it... it sort of worked, but not really. They had to make support classes into mediocre dps and mediocre healers and then give them enough buffs and debuffs to make bringing them worthwhile... it didn't work out.

I'm so confused about the big deal of DRK being tanks. When did our opinion about DRK's abilities define their role in a party when this is SE's choice? Sure, the FFXI community made different plans for NIN's move set to become a DD/Tank role. However, every FF game is always reinventing the job class system. No, every FF game is always being reinvented to try something different, yet develop the basic core.

Did you know in Final Fantasy Dimensions (yes, there are others aside from the numerical ones), DRK is a job picked up by the "Warriors of Dark." It is pretty much the heavy DPS using the core abilities of darkness and wears the heavy armor to mitigate dmg and "tank" for the team? I know a few have brought Cecil which is another good point. Cecil from FFIV was and kept being the tank until he switched to PLD.

This could be said the same for some of the other jobs as well. I grew to like SMN in XIV, but I don't necessarily have to like its design. Yet, maybe we are spoiled to feel that SMNs should be act a certain way. SMNs from FFX, XI, XII and XIII gave us some "control" over the summon. However in past games, SMNs were simply just a ATB cast like a BLM's Firaga. What would stop SE to make the next SMN summon Leviathan so that he could splash about, provide a glass of astral water, give a monologue about his time under the sea, and devolve into a Magikarp?

And BLU's as well. A BLU from FFV is going to be different from VIII's Quistis's Limit Break. She's also going to be different from Quina and definitely different from X-2's Gun Mage. The major core of the BLU is to absorb and learn enemy skills. I don't see each one being a sword-toting, Imperial silk wearing, turning into a Soulflayer DD job from XI.

(And just to be clear, I love FFXI and consider it one of my favorites with FFVI. I'm trying not to bash the FFXI supporters if it comes off that way.)

Edited, Oct 26th 2014 1:54pm by TrenchTMK

The fact that DRK is a standalone job makes me wonder why NIN isn't.

The classes make sense when you think of them as adventurer professions that people pick up. Like an entry-level position somewhere that eventually evolves into something superior. And that's lovely and all, but then wtf is with ROG. You can't start as one. You can't graduate from the Famous Adventurer's Correspondence School with a degree in rogue. You have to pick it up later. So why not just make it a job?

I'm not sure SE really knows what they want to do with the armory system, and they're experimenting to find something that works and allows them to grow without new guilds having to pop up out of the ground like they've been there the whole time.

Then content would have to be eased. If those very stances don't make those tanks and healers as good as the other dps. Then content would have to be easier equaling to standard dps obliterating enemies. Duty finder would become even worse with the kicking feature. I think SWTOR has a discipline system that removed skill trees & offers three roles for each class. I have seen a bunch of complaining about it when they implemented it.

A master carpenter with average music proficiency or tools would like to compose music. Can he? He sure can, but he will never be able to compose consistent masterpieces, maybe a one hit wonder? What if he had built something in his strengths that only he could build?

I am sure there are some white mages out there that would like to cast ultima or summon Bahamut. When the line of trinity is blurred and everyone can do everything. Issues of balance come into the picture. Jobs are supposed to have one defined role. Classes should be less restricted if they are going to remain in FFXIV, in my opinion.

I did play that version first, and you're right about all that. But the fact is, Cecil was supposed to have that ability (maybe the self-damage was considered too "hard" for us poor American plebs). Edward's harps proc'd just fine for me, but I did generally have him hurling potions at people since the one major time you need to have a healer (the invasion of Fabul), the game takes your healer away.

The jobs are pretty much perfectly balanced right now. If there were actual balance issues, the community would immediately take advantage of them. Thus it is pretty obvious that your statement is incorrect.

The more variables you throw to the mix, the harder it is to keep the balance. SE is being very conservative in this regard. The upside is that you can play any job without being discriminated. The downside is that the options are very limited. Either way, as SE will introduce more options the game will not be as balanced as it is today.

SE will keep introducing new jobs to increase the options. You want to increase the available options further by allowing existing jobs to perform in several roles. I personally think that's really not worth the trade-off for balance issues. New jobs on the other hand should be worth the hassle. They're a breath of fresh air, while an old job performing in a new role in comparison is kind of meh.

Class balance in an MMO is a luxury. Throwing it away just so Paladin's can DPS is not really worth it. While this is just my personal opinion, I don't think the devs would disagree.

I like tanking, i'm a main PLD (and also a WAR for that matter, but still)

Still, i dont feel we need more competition with Tanks. Warrior was pretty much exactly what Dark Knight is supposed to be now. Big weapon, heavy armor, heavy damage, more HP based than MP based. It's likely to be the exact same thing but with a Great Sword instead of a Great Axe...

It has never been about not having enough tanks (queue times myth havent been true for months) because the JOBS werent interesting, it was about not having enough tanks because tanking in this game requires people to lead others through the dungeon, pull everything, kill rotations and the responsibility of making sure no one else gets hurt. It's easily 20 times the work it takes as a DPS to just engage what's being fought. Atleast they're finally fixing Flash so monsters dont just ignore you unless you had spend all your MP pool on flashes first, but that doesnt change what Tanking is in FFXIV.

People liked the jobs, they just dont like Tanking FFXIV-style. So they will most likely like Dark Knight, just dont want to do anything tank-ey with it.

I like tanking, and i've played Tanks as my main ever since week one of FFXI. So sure, i'll level Dark Knight, might even put a little more love and attention into it than other jobs. That wont say that i like it being a Tank though. I would much rather have it be a DPS class. Ninja as a DPS however seems perfect to me. We dont need no stinkin' Ninja tanks in FFXIV.

I've always hated how, ever since 2.2, Warriors put Paladin absolutely to shame with rediculous damage and rediculous damage mitigation to go along with it. With Dark Knight a Paladin will quickly fall to the 3rd place i bet...

I... really don't have a dog in this fight. I kinda stand as an exception.

People are talking about tanks being the de-facto leader. My groups, I lead raids from the DPS position. Tank follows mumble commands. Dungeon runs with parties in our alliance are pretty much neutral.

Granted, I get the idea that Tanks have to lead due to being the ones by default to mark targets and pull mobs. I do use a tank for Roulettes (to bypass queue) on my Warrior, but I hardly call this role definition lasting beyond the 4 man game.

I also... have to kinda laugh at the concept of the bastardization of a Class in the eyes. FFXI's Red Mage has a few words to say about that.

Design concept wise, SE hopes to make a net positive on role of tanks by enticing Dark Knight fans to try it out. From what I'm seeing, DRKs are split on the issue, however, locally, I already know two of my own FC/Alliance members are interested. So, while I picture there will always be an outspoken debate, I'm fairly certain that SE meets its intended design goal by pushing Dark Knight into the tanking role.

As far as people having a problem with the role itself. While its understood that some take issue with the leadership position it throws it into, some also take issue with the method of how it is done. Paladin, to some, is oversimplified and Warrior not do their tastes. Some desired more evasion based tanking or magic based tanking. Dark Knight will provide a different approach to a role, which may bring more in. This approach is not dissimilar to DPS or Healing. Sometimes the role does not work for you until you find the right method.

As far as fans taking a personal slight? I can sympathize. After a decade of beating my head against the wall on the Red Mage issue, I'm going to speak from experience: Don't entrench yourself on this issue. Try out the class as intended by the developers and if it is a game-breaker for you, leave for greener pastures, be that a different job/class or a different game. Honestly, getting hooked up on it will severely damper your experience. Speaking purely from sympathy, let it roll off you.

Personally, so far I've enjoyed FFXIV's re-imagining of certain classes and jobs. The combination of Bard/Archer was odd but I found it enjoyable. The changes to Conjurer and Thaumaturge make sense to me, though I've never cared for White Mage or Black Mage in general. And yes, there were uproars on each of these and still grumbling from time to time. I'm sure there are some people who are going to talk about hating how Dark Knight is implemented for a very long time.

But then I remind myself: This is a different numbered Final Fantasy - which means the tropes get interpreted differently. It's nothing all that new, and the debates over what was good/terrible are as time-honored as the franchise itself.

So I feel for the DRKs that are upset at this. However I'm going to ask you give it a shot, it may surprise you.

Anyways, that's how I feel from the peanut gallery. I expect we may run across this again if 'Agent' is announced. SE did say they were coming out with Tank and Healer for the expansion, and Dark Knight was already revealed as a tank. I'm going to make a safe bet and speculate that "Agent" is a firearm healer alike to Chemist. Will likely see some heated discussion about that as well.

Meanwhile, I have a Paladin in our FC who's been waiting to do DRK, laughing good-naturedly that he'll never get away from tanking. And my GF who's our main Scholar laughing at the theories of Agent saying she'll never get away from healing (As she was waiting on guns.) I'm glad my friends are taking this twist in stride.

Well, they are the red-hatted step children of the Video Game industry...

XI DRK stuff that could help a tank:

Blood weapon - Drains HP off a target with each hit
Drain - Directly siphon HP off a target
Aspir - Directly siphon MP off a target
Weapon Bash - Stun

... goddamit, every one of these abilities is already in the game on WAR or ACN of all things.

Okay, what about spells?

Absorb spells would be nifty. Absorb-VIT would be very useful for a tank.
Drain Spikes - Restores your HP each time you are hit by draining the mob. Pretty nifty.
Endark - Add darkness damage to your weapon. Probably be like Scathe, non-aspected magical damage
Stun - Straight up spell stun instead of weapon stun would be cool.
Break - Petrify the target
Sleep - Sleep the target

Plenty of things here that could help someone in a tanking role. And that's just touching on what DRK had in XI. I'm sure there will be some other cool things they add that are unique to XIV, or things from other games they can recycle.