KojiroSoma wrote:
ChoochZero wrote:
If Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting is upgraded, can you buy the weathered one again to have both? Depending on your build, especially for Blm, being able to do that seems BiS for rings. Anyone know if you can? We haven't downed T7 yet to find out.
Yes [/End topic]
See guys, it's not -that- hard to answer someone's question 20 posts down the line without being a massive jerk about it, seriously...
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Sure you can wear both.
BiS? No. 2 INT + 13 SSPD >>> 12 CRIT
Yeah, you're right: it isn't. Reading on the other hand...
As far as spell speed being worthless...it's the difference between getting a T2 + Fire 3 off before the first Heavensfall hits after mega flare and not. When I was using 375 SSPD, I was really suffering in T9. Bumped up to 475, DPS suddenly increased by 30. Weapon damage increased? Yeah but not enough to account for 30 whole DPS.
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, let just preface this that A, I'm not a Mage, B, I'm nowhere effing near Second Coil right now.
I'm seeking to educate myself on the aspect of this.
Can you explain to me the reasoning why the human element of Spellspeed is not considered when weighing its stat value?
Granted, this is from the perspective of a Melee DPS, but it seems to me the level of evasive maneuvers and alternate mechanics pretty much rules out the benefits of Spellspeed when it comes to other stats. It would seem that more often or not it is not going to allow you to squeeze another spell before you have to maneuver again, at least when it comes to individual item stats, so in many cases it's not wise to argue that Spell Speed is a static performance increase vs Crit, because those are both situation benefits that are just as intermittent as one another. However, Spellspeed, in my view, is more reliant on lack of human/isp connection error, where Crit is passive and will function it's benefits regardless of them.
I see where you're coming from and this is where I disgree with Puro when it comes to his philosophy on SSPD. However, there are certain tiers for SSPD where it not only lowers your casting time but also your GCD. Every GCD with x amount of spell speed is that much more DPS since you are able to get off more spells.
DET is actually the stat that always applies to your spells no matter what. It's the most linear of the stats and is often seen as a tertiary stat outside of WHMs. CRIT doesn't apply every time, unfortunately. None of the BLM spells benefit mechanic-wise from having more CRIT unlike BRD where crit chance actually affects other abilities you may have.
Hyrist wrote:
Put bluntly: Spell Speed seems irrelevant unless you're absolutely perfect on your spell rotations, and from what I've seen most times people won't be.
Again, just arguing speculatively. If there's a quantitative counter-argument here I'm open to it. I just seem to find that a lot of statistical arguments seem to completely ignore pragmatical context, and I'm just trying to get my bearings here.
Eh when people start to get content on farm, you may have a point which is why I generally switch to SMN once content IS on farm. When you get content on farm, you generally have a perfected spell rotation and deviate very little since you know the fight in advance. BLM is a job that is rewarded for knowing fights in advance to maximize DPS.
Other jobs are like this as well, however.
Like I said: Puro argues from the theoretical situations and praises SSPD for these instead of the reality of the situation which I highly disagree with.
Viertel wrote:
D) Avoiding spell affects and managing to get off Fire spells before you need to move -- and consequently not having to use resort to using Scathe spam -- is essential to doing as much as you can and not dramatically subpar DPS. Even in the best of situations in Turn 6/7 you're going to be nowhere near anyone else's damage as it is and having spells that cast quickly enough so you can actually get that Fire spell off before needing to adjust helps that much more.
I disagree with this first part! BLM is actually a very handy job for T7 but relies entirely on not getting shrieked. However, there is a little movement post 60% in T7 which is where SSPD pays off. The same goes for T6.
Hyrist wrote:
The problem here for me is, unlike haste, I really don't know what the stat value runs at. Sure, the scaling may be exponential, as you say, but if the stat increase variance is marginal at absolute best, then nothing short of an absolute build made around it is going to net pratical results.
Hyrist wrote:
And this is where I need to argue your ilvl statement. iLvl in a vacuum, means nothing. What happens is, ilvl is representative of a base/secondary stat ratio higher on average than gear of a lower tier. That's fine. But if someone is adding a stat that provides insufficient returns comparable to a lesser tiered item, for any reason, then it is not, in fact, an upgrade.
Unfortunately, based on what the OP said and how he obtained his stat weights (PuroStrider), he learned that spell speed and crit are about equal. He also neglected the fact that the HA ring has THIRTEEN spell speed on it so it's not just 12 cRIT > 2 INT..it's 12 CRIT << 2 INT + 13 spell speed.
Hyrist wrote:
It's not unintelligent to question this, which is why I do so. I'm in a similar situation having to weigh in on my Allegan Visor vs Weathered Astrum Helm. What I gain in 3 Str and 23 Skill Speed. (I'm on Coil 5, wearing Accuracy that's good enough for Coil 9) I lose in 11 Determination and 21 Crit Rate. In multiple moments vs Titan I lose on the advantage of skillspeed too much to justify its marginal increases.
Unfortunately, it depends on how your stat weights are for the particular job you play. :) This really should only be a problem with accessories and belts. Body pieces are, hands down, a better upgrade due to the sheer amount of main stat alone.
Hyrist wrote:
Remember, [b]Second Coil was cleared in mostly ilvl90 ilvl 95-98 gear, so minmaxing stats are not as important as execution.
Theonehio wrote:
Second coil was cleared long before everyone was even i93+.
Cleared in avg. i98 gear. BG and other FCs used alt groups to gear up all the mains in the first groups. Basically, they were decked out.
You will not clear T9 without at least 3 sanded weapon DPS.
I cannot stress this point enough.
The GCD tiers can be found here, TheOneHio:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqG_cUArVwt5dExEVEJIRmJHd2lrczg4cnZxTDVkM1E#gid=68 Hyrist wrote:
If a window of attack lasts 10 seconds, and you are attacking every 2.5, you get four attacks. If you are attacking every 2.3 Seconds YOU ARE STILL ATTACKING ONLY FOUR TIMES In fact, you are still only attacking 4 times in a static window of 10 seconds if you're attacking every 2.1 seconds.
This is why experience comes into play here. There are situations in this game where you will not be able to get off a spell at a certain spell speed value before you have to dodge compared to getting off a spell with a high spell speed value before dodging. IDK if you've watched T6-9, but almost every single turn has a random party member selection on it:
T6: The difference between ~100 spell speed is the difference between getting a near full rotation of fire 3 > fire 1 on the bee before blighted bouqet occurs and not. Another example: getting a spell off before you have to move for tether.
T7: Shriek and voice are both random and alter your DPS drasticallyy. Getting shrieked and getting three spells off before I have to run behind the giant is a lot better than 1 or 2 spells.
T8: It's the difference between getting fire 3 > fire 1 till ~350 MP + flare off opposed to just fire 3 + fire 1. The flare cleaves both the dread and the Avatar, increasing DPS substantially.
T9: This really drives home the reason you would want SSPD at least in the upper 400s. She will constantly be up in the air. Many sections of meteor stream (during lunar dynamo > meteor stream) and double meteor stream benefit spell speed since you need to squeeze off as much DPS as possible before she goes up into the air.
BTW, seen the last section of T9? It's constant movement. The faster you can ramp up your fire 3 to get astral fire back up, the better. Due to all the movement, you may not be able to get a fire 1 off before your astral fire 3 runs out opposed to spell speed that will allow this more frequently.
I have around two seconds of astral fire 3 left before I know I will lose it. If I cast fire 1 at 2-3 seconds, I retain astral fire. With 375 spell speed, I could not do this.
You are forgetting many things.
Increased spell speed to a certain extent means I can actually get all my spells off DURING the medicated phase of raging strikes + x-pot int + BV foe req just like increased skill speed means I can get DK > twin > snap > snap > demo off on MNK during perfect balance opposed to not.The higher your spell speed, the better you scale with Selene's spell speed buffSSPD allows you to ramp up faster from a stack clear (boss went for a swim, went up in the air)You forget how largely flare is affected by spell speed. The longer the cast, the more noticable the outcome. Basically, the more movement in the fight, the better SSPD performs. Coil 2 is full of movement. Neglecting it entirely is a bad idea...but stacking it entirely can have poor returns as well.
Edited, May 16th 2014 1:28pm by HitomeOfBismarck