In this case, me posting links to the stuff I cited above won't do anything to change anyone's mind.
I'm not asking anyone else to post links, either. For me, there's no need. But I also don't need to spoon feed people who genuinely want to learn more about what happened. If people don't want to Google it themselves, then they probably don't care much anyway, in which case it's not a big deal to begin with.
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Thayos wrote:
In this case, me posting links to the stuff I cited above won't do anything to change anyone's mind.
I'm not asking anyone else to post links, either. For me, there's no need. But I also don't need to spoon feed people who genuinely want to learn more about what happened. If people don't want to Google it themselves, then they probably don't care much anyway, in which case it's not a big deal to begin with.
I'm not asking anyone else to post links, either. For me, there's no need. But I also don't need to spoon feed people who genuinely want to learn more about what happened. If people don't want to Google it themselves, then they probably don't care much anyway, in which case it's not a big deal to begin with.
Look, you make a statement you back it up. That's all I'm saying. Don't be all passive agressive and dodge around it and tell me to google it when I'm sure you tried to find something to link but you just can't so you just tell me I'm too lazy to look it up myself.
The reason you're not asking anyone for links is because you're the one that made the statement. So I'll say it again, you made the statement, back it up.
Thayos wrote:
In this case, me posting links to the stuff I cited above won't do anything to change anyone's mind.
I'm not asking anyone else to post links, either. For me, there's no need. But I also don't need to spoon feed people who genuinely want to learn more about what happened. If people don't want to Google it themselves, then they probably don't care much anyway, in which case it's not a big deal to begin with.
I'm not asking anyone else to post links, either. For me, there's no need. But I also don't need to spoon feed people who genuinely want to learn more about what happened. If people don't want to Google it themselves, then they probably don't care much anyway, in which case it's not a big deal to begin with.
And this is why I'm puzzled as to why you even felt the need to respond to Bidnastyme's post in the first place. This thread was basically dead for 11 days. He bumped the thread to ask for proof from someone else. This was a dying thread. You should have just let it die once again.
Instead, you use phrases like "Protip", make claims that Bidnastyme is ignoring stuff that is right in front of his face, and then say things like he wants to be spoon fed. It all comes across as condescending and troll-ish.
Quote:
And this is why I'm puzzled as to why you even felt the need to respond to Bidnastyme's post in the first place. This thread was basically dead for 11 days. He bumped the thread to ask for proof from someone else. This was a dying thread. You should have just let it die once again.
Well my first post was actually purely helpful. Was just informing him of what had taken place. From his response to Filth, that seemed like the right thing to do.
And no, there's no need for me to post links to things that are so easy to find. Like I said... if you want to look it up and learn about it, great! If not, then that's your choice, too.
Seriously, though, I don't like looking things up for other people, especially when the info is so dreadfully easy to find. I especially don't like people who obviously have lots of time on their hands telling me to find things for them, as if I don't have better things to do, like post replies.
If the only thing making me "wrong" is the fact that you haven't Google'd any of this yourself, well... I can live with that. Edited, May 15th 2014 2:37pm by Thayos
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I meant google the word if you're going to use it in a sentence. :)
There was hubbub over the use of the symbol for the term 'horsebird' because it was 'proof' way back when that Chinese coders were being used. Such 'proof' is now poked fun at as there's a quest called 'They Shoot Horsebirds Don't They'.
I just think it's all too much fun.
And no it's not a spelling mistake. You didn't spell it wrong you used a word which has a completely different meaning. That technically makes me a grammar **** not a spelling **** :P
Edited, May 15th 2014 2:48pm by LebargeX
There was hubbub over the use of the symbol for the term 'horsebird' because it was 'proof' way back when that Chinese coders were being used. Such 'proof' is now poked fun at as there's a quest called 'They Shoot Horsebirds Don't They'.
I just think it's all too much fun.
And no it's not a spelling mistake. You didn't spell it wrong you used a word which has a completely different meaning. That technically makes me a grammar **** not a spelling **** :P
Edited, May 15th 2014 2:48pm by LebargeX
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
And this is why I'm puzzled as to why you even felt the need to respond to Bidnastyme's post in the first place. This thread was basically dead for 11 days. He bumped the thread to ask for proof from someone else. This was a dying thread. You should have just let it die once again.
Well my first post was actually purely helpful. Was just informing him of what had taken place. From his response to Filth, that seemed like the right thing to do.
-Protip - helpful and condescending isnt the same.
And no, there's no need for me to post links to things that are so easy to find. Like I said... if you want to look it up and learn about it, great! If not, then that's your choice, too.
-Protip - you make a statement, you better well back it up, if you can't, don't say anything.
Seriously, though, I don't like looking things up for other people, especially when the info is so dreadfully easy to find. I especially don't like people who obviously have lots of time on their hands telling me to find things for them, as if I don't have better things to do, like post replies.
If the only thing making me "wrong" is the fact that you haven't Google'd any of this yourself, well... I can live with that. - Did I ever ask you to look up anything for me. I obviously asked you to back up your claim becuase I LOOKED IT UP MYSELF AND SAW NOTHING OF WHAT YOU SAID. Implying that i'm too lazy with all the time on my hand doesn't make you wrong, it makes you a ****.
Edited, May 15th 2014 2:37pm by Thayos
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LebargeX wrote:
I meant google the word if you're going to use it in a sentence. :)
There was hubbub over the use of the symbol for the term 'horsebird' because it was 'proof' way back when that Chinese coders were being used. Such 'proof' is now poked fun at as there's a quest called 'They Shoot Horsebirds Don't They'.
I just think it's all too much fun.
And no it's not a spelling mistake. You didn't spell it wrong you used a word which has a completely different meaning. That technically makes me a grammar **** not a spelling **** :P
Edited, May 15th 2014 2:48pm by LebargeX
There was hubbub over the use of the symbol for the term 'horsebird' because it was 'proof' way back when that Chinese coders were being used. Such 'proof' is now poked fun at as there's a quest called 'They Shoot Horsebirds Don't They'.
I just think it's all too much fun.
And no it's not a spelling mistake. You didn't spell it wrong you used a word which has a completely different meaning. That technically makes me a grammar **** not a spelling **** :P
Edited, May 15th 2014 2:48pm by LebargeX
Grammar **** much then? :)
Quote:
- Did I ever ask you to look up anything for me. I obviously asked you to back up your claim becuase I LOOKED IT UP MYSELF AND SAW NOTHING OF WHAT YOU SAID. Implying that i'm too lazy with all the time on my hand doesn't make you wrong, it makes you a ****.
I was speaking in generalities, because that just seemed to be the prevailing vibe in the thread.
Also, I'm not implying that you, alone, are too lazy. I'm lazy too! Both of us could have found and posted all kinds of links already, but why bother? What's the point, really? There is none. I'm satisfied with what I've posted in this thread. Anyone who wants verification can find it quite easily.
Protip: Yes, I can be an *** sometimes.
Quote:
Don't be all passive agressive and dodge around it and tell me to google it when I'm sure you tried to find something to link but you just can't
Protip: You're an *** too! (And your comment is proof that you've made little to no effort to actually improve your understanding of this topic.)
Edited, May 15th 2014 3:12pm by Thayos
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svlyons wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
The word is ONUS.
Google that shiz
Google that shiz
And why is the onus on him? Because Thayos is an admin? Because Thayos and Filth happen to agree on something and they usually don't agree? Because some number of people beyond just Thayos and Filth have accepted this as truth?
If no one has a link to the evidence asked for and no one feels the need to do the research to provide it, why even bother to respond?
It's not the onus that has him bothered, it's the "owness"
Bidnastyme wrote:
That's why I put the owness on you.
Quote:
There was hubbub over the use of the symbol for the term 'horsebird' because it was 'proof' way back when that Chinese coders were being used. Such 'proof' is now poked fun at as there's a quest called 'They Shoot Horsebirds Don't They'.
I chuckled when I saw that quest in game.
Quote:
That's why I put the owness on you.
That's actually a pretty sweet term.
Edited, May 15th 2014 4:42pm by Thayos
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Thayos wrote:
Quote:
- Did I ever ask you to look up anything for me. I obviously asked you to back up your claim becuase I LOOKED IT UP MYSELF AND SAW NOTHING OF WHAT YOU SAID. Implying that i'm too lazy with all the time on my hand doesn't make you wrong, it makes you a ****.
I was speaking in generalities, because that just seemed to be the prevailing vibe in the thread.
Also, I'm not implying that you, alone, are too lazy. I'm lazy too! Both of us could have found and posted all kinds of links already, but why bother? What's the point, really? There is none. I'm satisfied with what I've posted in this thread. Anyone who wants verification can find it quite easily.
Protip: Yes, I can be an *** sometimes.
Quote:
Don't be all passive agressive and dodge around it and tell me to google it when I'm sure you tried to find something to link but you just can't
Protip: You're an *** too! (And your comment is proof that you've made little to no effort to actually improve your understanding of this topic.)
Edited, May 15th 2014 3:12pm by Thayos
How is calling you out on your passive agressive responses make me an ***? Look, if you can't provide any actual facts without any speculation, just admit it and move on. And oh look, even more assumptions. There is no proof in any of my comments showing that I've made little to no effort in understanding the topic that we were having. The only proof I see here is you made a statement, I asked you to provide facts and proof, and all you did was reply with condescending remarks and dodging. I'll say it one last time, you make the statement, you back it up. If you can't back it up, don't make that statement. Goodbye sir.
Someone uploaded the 1.0 credits.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
Catwho wrote:
Someone uploaded the 1.0 credits.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
What a totally unexpected twist it would be that SE had a plan to release 1.0, like ARR, in China, and the single horsebird quote in-game was nothing but a mere localization mistake.
Totally amazingly, there is also actual verification for this to be the case:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30462/Shanda_Square_Enix_Bringing_Final_Fantasy_XIV_To_China.php
So Thayos was right all along: The Chinese localization was/is outsourced to China! Face saved, no need to thank me.
Edited, May 16th 2014 3:18pm by Hyanmen
There were other weird language things in addition to the horse bird... That's just the one that has stuck around.
If all SE outsourced were localization services, then how odd that those crossover issues happened in the JP client. If the Chinese client were localized from JP version if the game, seems that things like "horse bird" should never have happened (except for just in the Chinese client, which I don't ever think saw the light of day).
Also, note that this article doesn't specifically claim that localization was outsourced to Shanda... but the fact Shanda and SE had a business relationship and were working to release the game in China is yet another piece of evidence that Chinese developers were working on the game. This would explain the Kanji weirdness that was so confusing to the JP playerbase.
And this is pure speculation, but if SE was working with Shanda "specifically" on the Chinese client, then that might be why the company isn't listed in the credits for the NA or JP versions.
As I said earlier, it's just hard to make an argument that parts of the game weren't handled by Chinese developers.
Edited, May 16th 2014 10:24am by Thayos
If all SE outsourced were localization services, then how odd that those crossover issues happened in the JP client. If the Chinese client were localized from JP version if the game, seems that things like "horse bird" should never have happened (except for just in the Chinese client, which I don't ever think saw the light of day).
Also, note that this article doesn't specifically claim that localization was outsourced to Shanda... but the fact Shanda and SE had a business relationship and were working to release the game in China is yet another piece of evidence that Chinese developers were working on the game. This would explain the Kanji weirdness that was so confusing to the JP playerbase.
And this is pure speculation, but if SE was working with Shanda "specifically" on the Chinese client, then that might be why the company isn't listed in the credits for the NA or JP versions.
As I said earlier, it's just hard to make an argument that parts of the game weren't handled by Chinese developers.
Edited, May 16th 2014 10:24am by Thayos
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To be fair though, SE admits to outsourcing lately as they even admited the HD remasters of FFX/X-2 were outsourced. Even then I don't see what the problem is, because pretty much everyone outsources in some fashion these days. This is why Indie games seem to be on the up and up compared to 'Triple A' titles now, not held behind a bunch of 'standards' which can include outsourcing parts of development.
Catwho wrote:
Someone uploaded the 1.0 credits.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I used to work as a studio musician for a record company in Nashville. We were paid for our time and ideas, but part of that deal was that we forfeit rights to anything we created during that time. They could use any of the music I recorded in any manner they saw fit because that was how the deal was worked out.
I wouldn't expect China to get any credit. It's not unlikely that with an IP as big as Final Fantasy is(and China's rep when it comes to IP, copyright, piracy, ect.) that they had something similar worked out. "We'll pay you for your work on this project, but we maintain rights to everything and you get no credit". That's pretty common.
'Horsebird' stuck out because it was somewhat offensive to Japanese players. The list of translations that were made shortly after launch was quite long. When did FFXIV release in the Chinese market? Hmmm.
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Someone uploaded the 1.0 credits.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I too always believed the "outsourced to China" rumors but if that's the case, they were not listed in the credits. I only saw one name that wasn't Japanese outside of the localization and marketing teams.
I used to work as a studio musician for a record company in Nashville. We were paid for our time and ideas, but part of that deal was that we forfeit rights to anything we created during that time. They could use any of the music I recorded in any manner they saw fit because that was how the deal was worked out.
I wouldn't expect China to get any credit. It's not unlikely that with an IP as big as Final Fantasy is(and China's rep when it comes to IP, copyright, piracy, ect.) that they had something similar worked out. "We'll pay you for your work on this project, but we maintain rights to everything and you get no credit". That's pretty common.
'Horsebird' stuck out because it was somewhat offensive to Japanese players. The list of translations that were made shortly after launch was quite long. When did FFXIV release in the Chinese market? Hmmm.
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
Quote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
Yes, this is true.
However, the elephant in the room is why the JP client was released with all kinds of Chinese localization errors? Shouldn't the Chinese client have been localized from the JP client, which wouldn't have had those errors if done by a JP team?
Remember what I said earlier (which you've been conveniently ignoring), about how -- unlike any other FF game -- the JP client includes only Kanji, which is shared between the JP and Chinese, but with differences in interpretation of the language. This was also very confusing to JP players at the time.
Edited, May 16th 2014 11:03am by Thayos
Edited, May 16th 2014 11:03am by Thayos
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Bidnastyme wrote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
It was never planned to be released at the same time. That really isn't an explanation as to why the game would have to be translated from Chinese to Japanese. That actually makes a stronger case for the game being developed in China and localized to Japan.
Again I ask, when was FFXIV released to the Chinese market?
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bidnastyme wrote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
It was never planned to be released at the same time. That really isn't an explanation as to why the game would have to be translated from Chinese to Japanese. That actually makes a stronger case for the game being developed in China and localized to Japan.
Again I ask, when was FFXIV released to the Chinese market?
Just because they didn't plan to release it at the same time doesn't mean that they can't be working on it at the same time.
Also, you made a bold face claim that the majority of FFXIV was developed in China, back up that claim then. I see no facts anywhere in what you're saying. Show me where they had to translate the game from chinese to japanese. Also, you do know that Kanji is a form a japanese writing adopted from the chinese a long time ago right? If you don't know Kanji, you cannot read or write Japanese.
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
Yes, this is true.
However, the elephant in the room is why the JP client was released with all kinds of Chinese localization errors? Shouldn't the Chinese client have been localized from the JP client, which wouldn't have had those errors if done by a JP team?
It's kind of like how the English localization/client had (and still has) some localization errors that display JP text. For example early on due to the speed of us reaching coil, many enemies had Japanese names and descriptions for their abilities.
So while it can be seen as an elephant in the room, it's honestly no different than when English clients has errors. They weren't as "severe" like us having JP names (which are quite better in SCH's regard) in places but..it honestly does happen.
As said, Japanese writing, particularly Kanji is borrowed from China as is, so it can actually be a very easy mistake outsourced or not, especially if they planned on releasing the game in China (which they did plan on it.) It'd be rare for a JP team to make that kind of mistake but China isn't exactly the most open nation to work with when it comes to this kind of stuff so you'd honestly never know lol.
Edited, May 16th 2014 11:18am by Theonehio
Bidnastyme wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bidnastyme wrote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
It was never planned to be released at the same time. That really isn't an explanation as to why the game would have to be translated from Chinese to Japanese. That actually makes a stronger case for the game being developed in China and localized to Japan.
Again I ask, when was FFXIV released to the Chinese market?
Just because they didn't plan to release it at the same time doesn't mean that they can't be working on it at the same time.
Also, you made a bold face claim that the majority of FFXIV was developed in China, back up that claim then.
I didn't make that claim at all. I know there's no proof that the game was outsourced, so I never would have stated that. What I did say was that it's likely that parts of the game were outsourced because there isn't really any other explanation for why things happened the way they did. You're not going to get any facts to back up any claims about it because there are none available. All we have is bits and pieces that we put together on our own to try to understand what happened.
When was the announcement made that SE teamed up with Shanda to localize the game for China? When did FFXIV launch in Japan? When was the maintenance that translated a large part of the game back to Japanese? When was FFXIV released in China?
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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bidnastyme wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bidnastyme wrote:
Uh....because they were planning to release it to the chinese market but the game totally flopped before there was a chance to?
It was never planned to be released at the same time. That really isn't an explanation as to why the game would have to be translated from Chinese to Japanese. That actually makes a stronger case for the game being developed in China and localized to Japan.
Again I ask, when was FFXIV released to the Chinese market?
Just because they didn't plan to release it at the same time doesn't mean that they can't be working on it at the same time.
Also, you made a bold face claim that the majority of FFXIV was developed in China, back up that claim then.
I didn't make that claim at all. I know there's no proof that the game was outsourced, so I never would have stated that. What I did say was that it's likely that parts of the game were outsourced because there isn't really any other explanation for why things happened the way they did. You're not going to get any facts to back up any claims about it because there are none available. All we have is bits and pieces that we put together on our own to try to understand what happened.
When was the announcement made that SE teamed up with Shanda to localize the game for China? When did FFXIV launch in Japan? When was the maintenance that translated a large part of the game back to Japanese? When was FFXIV released in China?
FilthMcNasty wrote:
A lot of the work was outsourced so I'm not sure XIV is even a proper excuse.
You said it, this is the reason this thread is still going on in the first place. Also, the debate here is not even about when the game was released in China, you're the only one wondering that. The debate here is you and Thayos claiming the majority of the game was outsourced. All I asked was for you two to back up those claims, but all I see are songs and dances around the subject because you two can't back it up. Also, to be honest, if Thayos wasn't so condescending with his protips, i would've let it go a long time ago.
Edited, May 16th 2014 2:35pm by Bidnastyme
Quote:
It's kind of like how the English localization/client had (and still has) some localization errors that display JP text. For example early on due to the speed of us reaching coil, many enemies had Japanese names and descriptions for their abilities.
So while it can be seen as an elephant in the room, it's honestly no different than when English clients has errors. They weren't as "severe" like us having JP names (which are quite better in SCH's regard) in places but..it honestly does happen.
I understand the English version having localization errors with JP text, because the JP version was made first, and the English version was localized from that.
So while it can be seen as an elephant in the room, it's honestly no different than when English clients has errors. They weren't as "severe" like us having JP names (which are quite better in SCH's regard) in places but..it honestly does happen.
I understand the English version having localization errors with JP text, because the JP version was made first, and the English version was localized from that.
That's exactly why the Chinese localization errors in 1.0's JP client are so bizarre. That shows that the JP client was translated from a Chinese client, and some of the translations were missed or not done properly. The Chinese version never even saw the light of day, and wasn't even announced (I think) until a week before 1.0's official launch... so what were Chinese translation errors doing in the JP client?
Quote:
As said, Japanese writing, particularly Kanji is borrowed from China as is, so it can actually be a very easy mistake outsourced or not, especially if they planned on releasing the game in China (which they did plan on it.) It'd be rare for a JP team to make that kind of mistake but China isn't exactly the most open nation to work with when it comes to this kind of stuff so you'd honestly never know lol.
Yep, I agree... I'm not surprised things like "horse bird" slipped in. From what I've read on the shared use of Kanji, these errors would have been very easy to make by people who don't primarily speak JP Kanji.
This is me speculating here, but my guess is SE tried to cut corners by having parts of the game done in China (cheaper labor) and then localized for the JP and NA clients. We know SE's in-house development team was inadequately sized, and that they were rushing out the game to try to boost quarterly profits and beat out a WoW expansion.
Seems clear as day though that portions of the original client (and not the Chinese client, which would have come later) were done in China.
Edited, May 16th 2014 11:34am by Thayos
Edited, May 16th 2014 11:35am by Thayos
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Quote:
Also, the debate here is not even about when the game was released in China, you're the only one wondering that.
No, Filth knows exactly "when" the game was released in China. And his point is dead-on.
Quote:
The debate here is you and Thayos claiming the majority of the game was outsourced.
Woah, woah, woah... when did I claim the majority of the game was outsourced?
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