Can you handle the bare minimum?Follow

Well i am fairly certain ultima cant be. My i78 mnk and a full party of i70+ people all with relic+1 can reliably kill it (6/6 in a row) and about 50% of the time we do/dont see the count down. AKA he dies just as he starts count down/we never see count down.

If the average ilevel were 62 i am fairly certain that we would not have had the DD to kill him before he finishes his countdown.

I would have to agree that the vast majority of content is way under valued for ilvls.

Titan HM = 57, I would pay to see a full party of i57 people kill the heart and be able to finish before stomps kill them.

If everyone were the minimum, there would be a problem. If one or two, then you should be OK. I think having that limit allows people who can't farm all week for one job, have a chance to take on this content. Anyway, a WHM can still heal good if they have slightly better gear than the minimum, maybe not main heal but they could still do it. Same goes for an off tank.

Regardless of that, they will one day nerf the fight and then people will be able to win easier with lower lvl gear. It also gives people a chance to experience the content. I personally would like to see it, feel, it before I start going balls to the wall for it.

That's my opinion anyway.

Heres what I dont get, they nerf the AK loot to give it to dungeons that are easier/take less time than AK.

Then they make said dungoens give more tomes.

HM (hard) is hands down the shortest non-speed run dungeon, theres only like 12 groups of trash.

I dont know if they wanted to do that, typically you only plan to carry people with pre formed groups, not DF groups.

Thus the DF limit should be the absolute minimum for all people to contribute and the party to win.

Then just remove ilevel requirements for preformed groups.

I made this very same suggestion for Haukke Manor (Hard) on the forums. It's not that i dont want lower level people there, or that i only want to speed run things. It's simply a DPS race on the final boss to burn her down before her timer runs out, so to speak, and she will use "Final Allure" to pull in a random member, one hit them, and AoE the playing field for 9k damage.

I've cut it really close with all Relic members already, if anyone shows up in Pre-AF or GC gear (it's possible, since it's ilvl48) the run is pretty much over. You wont be able to put out enough damage to bring her down in time. It's sad to say, and people often times still want to try, but there's simply no way you can win unless you have 3x Allegan/Relic+1 people picking up your slack. I've done enough of them to know there's a certain amount of DPS that is required. If anyone still wants to try with people in full AF, as i have done many times regardless, be my guest. I on the other hand am leaving. More power to you if you can pick up the slack.

Can it be done with the bare minimum gear level they suggest? Yes. By a very skilled group of players. This means everyone has done the fight before so many times that they know the attack sequence in their sleep and is on the same page (probably with voice comm.). This also means that, of the gear they can tinker with through crafting, they have the best possible melds and also use food (not even the best).

Would you expect to find the following in a DF run? No. So why make the ilevel so low to begin with?

Doing extreme primals since the day the patch came out with Ultima in there as well, my FC, to this day, still has the occasional hiccup with Garuda and Titan. This is with people who have voice comm., are very skilled at what they do, and use the near-best possible gear that is available (with food to boot). This means we pretty much outgear the fight.

Now if we were to lower our gear to the bare minimum and attempt it, we'd have a lot more trouble and see fewer wins. Now change the situation to where you're stuck with strangers: not people you work with on a weekly basis. It just becomes a nightmare in the end.

I've been experimenting with the DF recently on old fights like Titan and Garuda HM to see if things have gotten better with the ilevel minimum requirement. The problem is, I will always go on SCH to heal these fights. You can have some of the worst players in the world yet still make it through something like Garuda HM with a SCH who severely out gears the fight. On Titan the issue becomes having at least one DPS live past heart phase to always break the healer out of gaol. If that is accomplished, the healer can also carry people through Titan HM.

The same is true for extremes and Ultima. The best bet in a DF is to set the bar a little higher. Gear can make up for lack of skill (and skill can make up for lack of gear) but since you cannot measure 'skill', gear is all we have to filter people out.

In the end, ilevel req is a good idea but was implemented incorrectly. It should be based on specific jobs not just general classes. They also should have gotten rid of two tanks on Titan HM DF. There is just no need at all.

Here is my assessment of certain fights:

Ultima

Tank - The ilevel needs to be set higher. Defractive laser can EASILY destroy tanks in ilevel 80 gear. The minimum for Ultima is so low that I often end up with tanks who have too little HP to survive the defractive and do not know how to use cooldowns properly.

DPS - The gear level right now for Ultima is fine I suppose. DPS is not really an issue in this fight: it's surviving the aetheric boom > bomb phases. If DPS die and this causes your Ultima to enrage, you can't really say it's a DPS issue.

Healer - The min. ilevel needs to be increased just a little bit. I feel that a healer with 3.6k-4k HP can survive in here just fine while performing their duties. What matters is the skill of the healer

Garuda Extreme

Tank - The ilevel requirement needs to be set MUCH higher for the MT. When I join a DF or PF and see a MT with around 6k HP, I know they are going to die to double whicked wheel if they do not manage cooldowns wisely. And most don't. Even if they do, there is still the chance they will be once shot by double whicked even with virus, soil, and eye for an eye on.

Healer - The ilevel is not high enough for healers. All non-tank classes need around 4k HP to be comfortable in here during a DF run. Melee, especially, need to have high HP because this is not a friendly fight for melee.

DPS - The ilevel needs to be increased substantially for DPS. Most groups cannot down Suparna or Chirada before she uses aerial blast. This points to a weakness in the fight mechanics, actually. This fight, as mentioned before, encourages ranged stacking.

Titan Extreme

Tank, Healer, and DPS - All three roles need HUGE increases in the ilevel minimum to enter this fight. If you do not have 4k+ HP, you're probably going to die unless you get stoneskinned or use fey covenant on geocrushes. Everyone must have flawless execution during the pre-heart death phase. You are allowed to let one DPS die during post heart and will still be successful (if you outgear it). Otherwise, you're SoL. In other words, the ilevel minimum to enter this fight needs to be raised like I said.

Of interest, Titan Ex is actually pretty friendly for melee classes unlike Garuda.

Ifrit Extreme

Tank - ilevel needs to be set a little higher. Tanks need to have good communication...something you won't find in DF. This fight is a nightmare to heal through as well.

Healer - ilevel needs to be set a little higher for this fight since the major mechanic in this fight centers around the healers switching off howls AND the tanks switching off stacks.

DPS - the ilevel is just a little low for this fight. DPS should have no issue here (melee or not)




Good tanks and good DPS are a great thing to have on extremes, but healers are what make or break you. At least, this is from my personal experience as a BLM/SCH who does these fights regularly.

Now on other dungeons like Pharos, Copperbell, etc, I would not know. PUGs seem to have no trouble with HM HM. Copperbell is a little trying but once everyone understands the tactics, it isn't that big of an issue. Pharos could use a higher ilevel requirement for the healer and that's it. DPS and tanking isn't as important.

Edited, Dec 28th 2013 8:56pm by HitomeOfBismarck

(most of) this game is more about placement, movement, reaction time, and tactics than it is about gear

and most of the people here citing troublesome fights are having trouble with them due to a lack of those things rather than gear

theres actually a few fights where gear matters tremendously. turn 4 and 5 are some pretty big gear checks. they are skill checks also, but your not winning those fights if you cant eat the damage as a tank DPS or healer, can't kill mobs fast enough as a DPS and can't heal enough as a healer.

the only fights you can scrape by with craptastic gear and win, which I know can be done because my bard was wearing utter garbage, is titan HM, garuda, ifrit. if you are good enough to dodge everything and also have enough HP so geocrush doesn't kill you, I don't see why you couldn't do this with bad gear.

some of the other fights...not so much. as simple as garuda extreme really is (it's not really THAT bad, but people make it seem far worse than it really is), without the gear like others have said, tanks will easily get 1 shotted by double wicked wheels. I get 1 shot with 6400 HP if I don't pop rampart and that usually leaves me with ~1000 health left. for an ilvl 70 tank that's around dead even with rampart. that may also be with stoneskin up as well I don't usually pay attention when their casting it on me.