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Yoshi-P responds in the Housing Open Letter threadFollow

#1 Dec 17 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Response was earlier this morning. (Sorry if anyone linked in one of the other threads, didn't quite get thru them all)

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/127656?p=1685344#post1685344

Quote:
Regarding Housing Price

This is FFXIV: ARR Producer/Director Naoki Yoshida. First of all, allow me to express my thanks to all of you who have offered feedback on the matter of housing prices. Needless to say, I have been following the discussion very closely.

In this post, I would like to clarify our fundamental stance toward housing prices, and offer a better picture of how players can expect prices to fall in the near future.
(My apologies in advance if this post gets a bit wordy.)

Fundamental Pricing Stance

Our fundamental stance toward housing prices was that we wanted to ensure that plots would be evenly distributed, avoiding a situation in which the wealthiest players could easily buy up all available plots of land. Please understand that while we will be adding servers and expanding housing areas as soon as we can, it is simply physically impossible for us to accomplish this easily, in a matter of one or two weeks.

If the initial price of land was easily within the means of wealthy players, one can envision all available plots of land being snatched up immediately, leaving other players—even those possessing the necessary gil—unable to purchase land for an extended period of time. Seeking to avoid this, we made the difficult decision to go forward with the pricing scheme we presented, aware that many players would be unable to afford housing for a while.

Eorzean Economy Review

Before determining the initial (or maximum) prices for land, we conducted an extensive survey of the Eorzean economy across multiple Worlds, including:

The total amount of gil possessed by all players
The total amount of gil possessed by all active players on each World
The number of active free companies and members on each World
The total amount of gil owned by all active players belonging to each free company on all Worlds
The amount of gil entering the economy and circulating in the market on a given day in each World
Distribution of the above (X% belonging to the most wealthy, Y% belonging to the middle class, Z% to the less wealthy, etc.)

Needless to say, RMT traders are served with immediate bans and their gil removed from circulation, so these figures are not included in the above. In addition, to account for gil generated by RMT abuses that might still be in circulation, an additional 10% or so was subtracted from the figures we arrived at.

What we realized from this survey was that the wealthiest players in each world had at their disposal an amount of gil that was considerably higher than one would imagine. In each legacy World, there are more than ten players in possession of over one hundred million gil. Even in non-legacy Worlds, there are a significant number of players with several million gil.

he Future Price of Housing

In conducting this survey, we created a forecast for gil distribution in the three-month period following the release of patch 2.1. In doing so, we anticipated that:

Players will be seeking to earn more gil than they have thus far, and
The overall amount of gil generated each day will be higher (in fact, considerably higher) with the release of patch 2.1

...and adjusted our forecast accordingly.

The results of this forecast, with the necessary adjustments for differences between the various Worlds, formed the basis for the depreciated "XX Days Later" prices presented in the patch notes.

With this pricing scheme, we sought a balance in which roughly 80% of all existing free companies will be able to purchase at least a small-sized plot in three months’ time.

I understand that, in taking these measures to ensure even distribution of land, we are asking for considerable patience from those players who are eager to enjoy housing right away. While I sympathize with players concerns, we believe that this is in the best long-term interests of the game.

The Regulation of Starting and Final Prices

As mentioned within the patch notes, we will closely monitor land purchases, and consider revising prices as necessary according to World population and economy. Please keep in mind that prices will decrease every six hours from the opening of the servers, and will continue to drop even during maintenance. Furthermore, plots of land released in the future will never be more expensive.

Legacy World Price Adjustments

Due to the prodigious amount of gil in circulation in legacy Worlds, we regret that current housing prices may be prohibitive to the following players:

Those new to the game who started on legacy Worlds
Those returning to a legacy World after taking an extended break
Those on a legacy World who have been unable to save gil

Upon considering the feedback we have received since the release of the patch notes, we have decided to make the following adjustments:

Land prices will start at the figures indicated in the patch notes
From January 2014, devaluation will be adjusted every two weeks
After three months, final land prices will match those of World Group 3

* World Group 3 (third listed in the patch notes)
Bahamut / Behemoth / Cactuar / Carbuncle / Chocobo / Diabolos / Fenrir / Garuda / Gilgamesh / Ifrit / Leviathan / Mandragora / Midgardsormr / Odin / Ramuh / Shiva / Siren / Tiamat / Titan / Tonberry / Ultros

Although this takes place over the course of three months, land prices in legacy Worlds will eventually fall to match those of World Group 3. In the event that pricing changes are made to this group, the same will be applied to legacy Worlds.

By adjusting devaluation at set intervals rather than in one go, we hope to prevent a sudden rash of purchases.

The introduction of housing will help to unify the perceived value of gil in each individual World. Furthermore, it has presented an opportunity for us to consider the lifting of restrictions on transfers between between legacy and non-legacy Worlds.

Personal Housing

While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

In Summary

The final price of land on all Worlds is subject to adjustments, and may fall lower
Over the course of three months, prices on legacy Worlds will fall to match those of World Group 3
Personal housing will be far more affordable than free company housing

We realize that these measures will not immediately satisfy all players, especially those on legacy Worlds who are either new to the game or returning from extended absences. We ask for your patience and understanding as we strive to create a balanced housing system.


#2 Dec 17 2013 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
I'm inclined to feel this is a reasonable and appropriate response.
#3 Dec 17 2013 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
I think it was posted elsewhere, but his response is long enough that it deserves its own thread.

What they don't take into account in their equations is how much daily playing already nibbles away at gil reserves. Gear costs, food costs, synth ingredient costs, gear repair costs, teleport costs, chocobo costs - sure, a player can earn 20K/day just from playing the game, but he's going to burn through 10K of that just by playing the game at the same time.

Amassing large amounts of gil in this game is still fairly difficult, because the amount of fiat money in circulation is unevenly distributed. You've got the 1% of Eorzea trading around the vast majority of wealth and valuable items between themselves, while the daily casual players only bother to earn enough gil to keep going in whatever activity they're doing.

And if every single person stopped playing the game and just started farming to earn as much gil as fast as possible, the economy would crash because it relies on some people actually, you know, using up gear and materials to produce goods (or to level up classes.) If everyone becomes a producer and stops consuming because consumption = spending money, we all lose.
#4 Dec 17 2013 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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6,899 posts
Quote:
Our fundamental stance toward housing prices was that we wanted to ensure that plots would be evenly distributed, avoiding a situation in which the wealthiest players could easily buy up all available plots of land. Please understand that while we will be adding servers and expanding housing areas as soon as we can, it is simply physically impossible for us to accomplish this easily, in a matter of one or two weeks.


See, this is the part that really grinds my gears. If you didn't want wealthy players to buy up multiple plots, set it so players can only buy 1 plot per server per account. Make it so if you are in an FC, you can only have 1 house. Make it so you have to be level XX to buy a house so that you can't just transfer gil to alts and buy them up. There are so many easy solutions to that.

Basically, this letter was just his way of saying that they don't have the server space currently, so instead of postponing housing until there's more capacity, they made it so that wealthy players can only afford 1 plot, and everyone else can afford nothing for 3 months. Why even release it now and not just 3 months from now with better pricing and more server room? It just seems like a bunch of lies to try and save face to me.
#6 Dec 17 2013 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
You are right about that Catwho. The equations do seem to be based on Income rate only, not adjusted for daily Expenditures.

Although, the rate they seem to be quoting for Income seems to be for just running dungeons and the normal gil rewards from them. It really doesn't seem to include the income rate that even the most casual/gatherer crafter can make gil.

Selling regular old lvl ~30 range equipment sells quite well. There always selling shards. Hell, you can go gather up a stack of 99 Crow's Feathers with a Level 1 hatchet and some lazy level 5 Botanist will buy them for 10,000~20,000 gil. Making money off of lazy rich people is easy.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this gives the whole economy a kick in the pants. Suddenly, gil is not useless.

Who among us hasn't considered, at least considered, buying gil to contribute to your FC for these houses? And then you most likely decided it was not worth it for some reason. Maybe you don't want to spend the RL $, maybe it's against your ethics, maybe you don't want to contribute to those pesky tells and shouts, maybe you don't want to risk your account being compromised by some gil seller, or maybe, just maybe, you were afraid your account would be banned by SE. Certainly all these things together makes a pretty good case against going that route.

There is now a lofty, and currently unattainable, goal of purchasing FC House. The goal is going to slowly come within reach. We will approach it, it will approach us, we will meet in the middle.

Honestly, at this moment I am thinking about spending some of my play time contributing to the economy of Eorzea for the first time in months. I want to contribute to the FC's goal, and to do that I'm going to have to diversify what I do with my playtime.

What an interesting result that would be.
#7 Dec 17 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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254 posts
Where is quicken loans when I need them? I looked all over Eorzea, no mortgage brokers to be found.
#8 Dec 17 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
I can totally understand getting down-rated for suggesting that this fiasco may actually have a positive influencing on the game moving forward.

However, in the interest of discussion, if you are going to down-rate, please take the time to post your dissenting opinion so I can benefit from hearing your point of view.
#9 Dec 17 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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377 posts
I don't understand how they can justify dropping the legacys servers down to the world 3 pricing but not dropping the world 3 pricing down as well. If they are going to drop it for one group they should do it for all groups at least down to the lowest grouping.
#10 Dec 17 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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HonkeyKong29 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Quote:
Our fundamental stance toward housing prices was that we wanted to ensure that plots would be evenly distributed, avoiding a situation in which the wealthiest players could easily buy up all available plots of land. Please understand that while we will be adding servers and expanding housing areas as soon as we can, it is simply physically impossible for us to accomplish this easily, in a matter of one or two weeks.


See, this is the part that really grinds my gears. If you didn't want wealthy players to buy up multiple plots, set it so players can only buy 1 plot per server per account. Make it so if you are in an FC, you can only have 1 house. Make it so you have to be level XX to buy a house so that you can't just transfer gil to alts and buy them up. There are so many easy solutions to that.

Basically, this letter was just his way of saying that they don't have the server space currently, so instead of postponing housing until there's more capacity, they made it so that wealthy players can only afford 1 plot, and everyone else can afford nothing for 3 months. Why even release it now and not just 3 months from now with better pricing and more server room? It just seems like a bunch of lies to try and save face to me.



8 mil... probably like 5-7 mil after the 6 hour drops pile up..... isnt that much gil. I don't understand how you people haven't saved at least 1 - 2 million at this point. I've been playing since open beta, but i usually only play 5 - 20 hours a week depending on work/sports/life, I've saved 2.3 mil myself and my FC which consists of 4 people have saved 5 million combined. People should've prepared as Yoshi told us housing would be very expensive before the game even launched.


I personally have over 1m myself. Our FC has saved since day 1 as well. We're a large FC, and the cost of the large house is something we'll never even sniff at currently. Kudos to you for saving more money and for your FC saving tons. Not everyone can do that. Not everyone likes to craft or farm, or has the time to do so. The average player does not have gil in the millions.

Also, please stop passing around false information that Yoshi said housing would be very expensive. There are interviews in which it was specifically stated that the cost of housing for FCs was roughly equivalent to what it takes to get 4 people 1-50, which is less than 2m total. It was never touted that housing would be a hardcore grind only achievable by the mega-rich, which is where it's at now. It was supposed to be accessible to all FCs when implemented. Even a small FC house (which is the size of an Inn Room btw) costs 10m off the bat on new servers. That's accessible to none but the rich. Yes the price drops over time, but the end price is still ridiculous. Four million gil for a postage stamp house? Where is this, NYC?
#11 Dec 17 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
35 posts
FC house? what FC house? there is nothing like that in 2.1 as far as I am concerned.
#12 Dec 17 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Looks like Legacy worlds will get Ultros' level prices within a couple of months... I guess the squeaky wheel gets greased huh?

I don't know if I should be happy for them or pissed because they have much more gil on their servers. Even brand new FC's with all new 2.0 players should have more gil then us... they can sell their farmed items and crafted items for a lot more than we can on Ultros and other new servers...

I'm trying not to be pissed.
#14 Dec 17 2013 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,232 posts
Copied this from the page you linked Honky...


Quote:
Housing will cost a lot of gil. It has been said that in order to buy a medium sized plot of land you will need to spend the equivalent of levelling a class to 50 on quests three times and put all the gil you earned into your house.


I don't think that's even remotely right. I'd really like to see the math on that.
#15 Dec 17 2013 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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576 posts
Gnu wrote:

Selling regular old lvl ~30 range equipment sells quite well. There always selling shards. Hell, you can go gather up a stack of 99 Crow's Feathers with a Level 1 hatchet and some lazy level 5 Botanist will buy them for 10,000~20,000 gil. Making money off of lazy rich people is easy.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this gives the whole economy a kick in the pants. Suddenly, gil is not useless.


The problem is that this will act to deflate the currency, leading to people being as miserly as possible.

As it is the markets are crowded and profit margins are low. Add in a deluge of new people trying to make gil and the even lower demand for the items, it's going to be harder and harder for anyone to make a decent profit.

How long is it gonna take for me to sell my stack of crow's feathers when there are 5-10 more up there, all undercutting each other by one gil in an effort to grab one of those 3 sales per day?

Sorry if I sound like a defeatist, but I just don't think this game has a rounded enough economy to bear this burden.
#18 Dec 17 2013 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
I didn't notice a single mention of FC credits on the official forums. Surely others have thought of Housing being purchased with credits earned through actual FC achievements.

It doesn't seem like it's too late to offer discount tickets to the housing prices that can be purchased with FC credits.

Edited, Dec 17th 2013 3:03pm by Gnu
#19 Dec 17 2013 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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6,899 posts
HonkeyKong29 wrote:
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/content/player-housing.php Basically it says it will be very expensive..... plus it sounds like you have your share... wtf is the rest of your fc doing?


Probably playing and enjoying the game. Like I said, not everyone likes to save every penny, or craft/gather for hours on end to make money.

As for your link, as Lebarge said, in the article itself it mentions that a medium house should cost 3x what it takes to level from 1-50. I actually thought it was 4x, so that's even more ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me that leveling 1-50 3 times will earn you 40 million gil? Large houses were supposed to be super expensive, but when the estimate for a medium was at roughly 1-1.5m gil based on what SE itself said, it stands to reason that a large would be somewhere in the 5-20m range at absolute MOST. Not the 150-600m range. That's not even incredibly expensive, that's just absurd.
#20 Dec 18 2013 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
[

As for your link, as Lebarge said, in the article itself it mentions that a medium house should cost 3x what it takes to level from 1-50. I actually thought it was 4x, so that's even more ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me that leveling 1-50 3 times will earn you 40 million gil? Large houses were supposed to be super expensive, but when the estimate for a medium was at roughly 1-1.5m gil based on what SE itself said, it stands to reason that a large would be somewhere in the 5-20m range at absolute MOST. Not the 150-600m range. That's not even incredibly expensive, that's just absurd.


This is exactly what bothers me the most. Yoshi outright lied about how much gil housing would cost. He consistently misled everyone into thinking housing would be easily approachable. He got everyone excited and then dashed their excitement on the rocks.

His response is equally mind-bending. He says that they were worried if houses were priced too low that they would all be sold and people wouldn't be able to buy them.

So his answer? Make it so that no one is able to buy them. HUH?

My theory is that he had promised and promised housing and it just was NOT ready - mostly because SE wildly underestimated how popular FFXIV would be. They have been working super hard to put in instance infrastructure and having to add even more servers was just not possible within the time frame he had. So instead of delaying to 2.2, he came up with the current scheme.

Housing prices will drop as SE's server infrastructure grows and is stabilized and the playerbase (bizarrely in this case those with the least gil) pay the price.

Of course he always throws in some crap comments about RMT and economy and excess gil and blah blah blah which all can be dealt with using means that is NOT high housing prices. They are just excuses for the sake of having excuses.

Thus far I've respected Yoshi and don't agree with all his decisions but he usually has pretty good reasons and takes the time to explain. In this case, he just spouts a bunch of nonsense and I wish he was simply honest with everyone about the real process that caused him to go from "gil earned from 3-4 players 1-50" to 300 million.

One more rant: Yoshi also reiterated that gil re-denomination would have no effect on the economy. Well, can you imagine housing costing 6.2 billion gil in 1.0? How would that even work????? It feels like since Yoshi knocked a 0 off of everyone's gil now he has the latitude to charge 10x more than what it should cost. I really can't understand it.

#22 Dec 18 2013 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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HonkeyKong29 wrote:
BartelX wrote:
HonkeyKong29 wrote:
http://www.ffxivinfo.com/content/player-housing.php Basically it says it will be very expensive..... plus it sounds like you have your share... wtf is the rest of your fc doing?


Probably playing and enjoying the game. Like I said, not everyone likes to save every penny, or craft/gather for hours on end to make money.

As for your link, as Lebarge said, in the article itself it mentions that a medium house should cost 3x what it takes to level from 1-50. I actually thought it was 4x, so that's even more ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me that leveling 1-50 3 times will earn you 40 million gil? Large houses were supposed to be super expensive, but when the estimate for a medium was at roughly 1-1.5m gil based on what SE itself said, it stands to reason that a large would be somewhere in the 5-20m range at absolute MOST. Not the 150-600m range. That's not even incredibly expensive, that's just absurd.



AS A FREE COMPANY... this isn't personal housing... 40 mil isn't realistic for one person, but for a medium sized FC 25-40 players it should be easy. If you haven't saved gil... that's your problem. My FC saved and once the price dips a little more ... we're buying. You can visit if you want.

Edited, Dec 18th 2013 4:24pm by HonkeyKong29


Yea right I dont believe you.. That would mean each player has to donate 1 million to 1.5 million to a FC and I doubt all your Fc did that or made that.

I think your just trying to stir things up..

Edited, Dec 18th 2013 4:34pm by Nashred
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#24 Dec 18 2013 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Well, I hate to inform you of this, but you are the exception in this game. Not the norm.

Enjoy your house!
#25 Dec 18 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Yea right I dont believe you.. That would mean each player has to donate 1 million to 1.5 million to a FC and I doubt all your Fc did that or made that.


I'm actually in a FC of 23 members... we're all very tight-knit and would easily donate 1 million apiece, if we had that kind of gil.

I'd set aside 200k that I was going to donate, and another person had set aside 500k... others were going to chip in, too... we just had no idea prices would be so high!

So, yeah... we're waiting... but we'd buy if we could. I think in a FC like ours, where people would rather have a home for the group than houses for themselves, people donating 1 mil apiece would be totally normal.
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