I have been wanting to post this for a while but i wanted to wait awhile till more people have beat the story.
i find that the good guys are very hypocritical and often times in my eyes the villains. so many place but i will start with the beastmen to try and flesh out my points.
when i look at the friction between titan and kobolds i feel that our side is in the wrong and we are the bad guys. and our philosophy that we have towards them is the same that the garlands have towards us. that we are right you and your way is wrong we will come in and do what ever we want and treat you how ever we want. just the way i look at it is that the conflict is much our fault as it is theirs and we are just as guilty of perpetuating the violence.
even with the sylph and ramuh i feel that they are no different then the Gridanians and how they treat outsiders and would let them die in front of them then even offer the slights help.
just a few of my thoughts
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Yup, that's the whole thing, Other than the Garleans, everyone has a dark side. That is why the warriors of light are needed. To help bring the light of the crystals to the world.
That is also why the sylph leader respects you above all other humans. You have proven that you see past the petty differences, and are willing to do right by anyone no matter if they are human, or beastman. That is also why a lot of quests have you fighting humans as much as you are fighting beastman.
That is also why the sylph leader respects you above all other humans. You have proven that you see past the petty differences, and are willing to do right by anyone no matter if they are human, or beastman. That is also why a lot of quests have you fighting humans as much as you are fighting beastman.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/729735/
I absolutely love the shades of gray inside the storylines. The beast tribes feel threatened and have a right to protect their lands.
Even Gaius has a very 'Magneto' archetype. I enjoy when the adversary believes their cause is noble. It's made even more profound thatnone of his officers were a 'StarScream' cliche. They (most) truly believed in him for various reasons. He was a real leader of his people even if we don't agree with his path to "peace". A truly fun villain. I might have felt even a little sorry for him at the end.
Now the Ascians (did I spell that right?), classic yin/yang light vs dark scenario.
Even Gaius has a very 'Magneto' archetype. I enjoy when the adversary believes their cause is noble. It's made even more profound thatnone of his officers were a 'StarScream' cliche. They (most) truly believed in him for various reasons. He was a real leader of his people even if we don't agree with his path to "peace". A truly fun villain. I might have felt even a little sorry for him at the end.
Now the Ascians (did I spell that right?), classic yin/yang light vs dark scenario.
I think of this as one of the classic hallmarks of a Final Fantasy story. **** is not cut and dried. In FFX, when Yuna makes the decision to fight Yunalesca and take on the entire damn summoning system and the entire Yevon religion in the process, she does so out of a recognition that she can no longer participate in a society that perpetuates evil in the long term for peace in the short term.
FFXI has petty beastman vs five races squabbles going on too, but these struggles have to fade to the background when the Seriously World-Ending Threat comes along. That, too, is an ongoing Final Fantasy theme. Working with past enemies to achieve a greater good, and past allies becoming enemies because they're just frickin crazy (I'm looking at you, Kefka... although he was more of a background character than an ally in the beginning.)
FFXI has petty beastman vs five races squabbles going on too, but these struggles have to fade to the background when the Seriously World-Ending Threat comes along. That, too, is an ongoing Final Fantasy theme. Working with past enemies to achieve a greater good, and past allies becoming enemies because they're just frickin crazy (I'm looking at you, Kefka... although he was more of a background character than an ally in the beginning.)
Catwho wrote:
she does so out of a recognition that she can no longer participate in a society that perpetuates evil in the long term for peace in the short term.
Now if only she would recognize her horrible taste with men
ShindaUsagi wrote:
Catwho wrote:
she does so out of a recognition that she can no longer participate in a society that perpetuates evil in the long term for peace in the short term.
Now if only she would recognize her horrible taste with men
She didn't expect to live past 18. I think she's allowed a pass for some of her poor judgment. (Agreeing to marry Seymour was just a ruse, anyway.) As annoying as Tidus is, he's the first guy that saw her as a normal young woman and not just Sacrificial Summoner Pawn #427.
Plus, those calves. Damn. Questionable taste in clothing aside, Tidus's character designers sure gave him some sexy legs.
14 posts
I also find myself agreeing with a lot of what Gaius says, the only problem being that he takes his views to the extreme. If they were more temperate then I would be fighting for the empire.
I'll explain a bit. In Praetorium he makes a number of comments about how the worship of the 12 is very similar to the Beastmen worship of the primals... and just as the primals are sustained on ether, the 12 need some form of sustenance/offering as well (like prayers, from 1.0... but for all we know, they may consume ether as well). When you consider this it would seem the 12 could essentially care less for the fate of Eorzea unless there's something in it for them- there's no benevolence, no paternalism. So in this way they're very much like the primals, the only difference being that they don't corrupt the minds of their followers.
Gaius also speaks a lot about misplaced faith in false gods and how man should take control of his destiny. And in that I agree. The sheer amount of effort that's needed to convince/summon these gods to do what are basically one-off tasks would be much better spent actually developing competencies needed for development and success. What if the kobolds took all of the time and effort they spent stealing crystals and digging tunnels, and put that into trying to build a peaceful relationship with Limsa? I understand Limsa broke their pact to begin with, but like any type of peace, their needs to be forgiveness in order to move forward. What if the two groups worked together to develop sustainable mining practices- imagine how this would benefit Limsa as a nation. The growth of such an industry would create legitimate jobs for pirates and other folk who were interested, rather than "plunder the empire for now... when they're gone we have no idea what we'll do with you". They would likely overtake Ul'Dah as the mining capital.
The fact that Garleans employ technology could also probably greatly improve the quality of life for everyone around Eorzea if they were to adopt it. Much of the continent is still living in the dark ages- yes they have magic, but maybe a using high powered magitek drill would be a lot more effective than swingining your pickaxe 9 million times? #industrialrevolution
Gaius is also right in his criticism of the GC leaders. They really have no control over what's going on in their borders. Ul'Dah for example is, as Gaius says, extremely corrupt.
Eorzea also seems to rely on a Ceruleum supply for energy. Am I the only one who remembers FFVII and the effects that Mako reactors had on the planet!? Why not replace that with Magitek, which is a clean and efficient form of energy. It's like having access to Iron Man's arc reactor technology that could be used to power every single automobile at an effective cost, but instead electing to continue using a gas powered engine.
Anyway I could keep ranting but I'll leave it there for now. Feel free to disagree. :D
I'll explain a bit. In Praetorium he makes a number of comments about how the worship of the 12 is very similar to the Beastmen worship of the primals... and just as the primals are sustained on ether, the 12 need some form of sustenance/offering as well (like prayers, from 1.0... but for all we know, they may consume ether as well). When you consider this it would seem the 12 could essentially care less for the fate of Eorzea unless there's something in it for them- there's no benevolence, no paternalism. So in this way they're very much like the primals, the only difference being that they don't corrupt the minds of their followers.
Gaius also speaks a lot about misplaced faith in false gods and how man should take control of his destiny. And in that I agree. The sheer amount of effort that's needed to convince/summon these gods to do what are basically one-off tasks would be much better spent actually developing competencies needed for development and success. What if the kobolds took all of the time and effort they spent stealing crystals and digging tunnels, and put that into trying to build a peaceful relationship with Limsa? I understand Limsa broke their pact to begin with, but like any type of peace, their needs to be forgiveness in order to move forward. What if the two groups worked together to develop sustainable mining practices- imagine how this would benefit Limsa as a nation. The growth of such an industry would create legitimate jobs for pirates and other folk who were interested, rather than "plunder the empire for now... when they're gone we have no idea what we'll do with you". They would likely overtake Ul'Dah as the mining capital.
The fact that Garleans employ technology could also probably greatly improve the quality of life for everyone around Eorzea if they were to adopt it. Much of the continent is still living in the dark ages- yes they have magic, but maybe a using high powered magitek drill would be a lot more effective than swingining your pickaxe 9 million times? #industrialrevolution
Gaius is also right in his criticism of the GC leaders. They really have no control over what's going on in their borders. Ul'Dah for example is, as Gaius says, extremely corrupt.
Eorzea also seems to rely on a Ceruleum supply for energy. Am I the only one who remembers FFVII and the effects that Mako reactors had on the planet!? Why not replace that with Magitek, which is a clean and efficient form of energy. It's like having access to Iron Man's arc reactor technology that could be used to power every single automobile at an effective cost, but instead electing to continue using a gas powered engine.
Anyway I could keep ranting but I'll leave it there for now. Feel free to disagree. :D
Catwho wrote:
ShindaUsagi wrote:
Catwho wrote:
she does so out of a recognition that she can no longer participate in a society that perpetuates evil in the long term for peace in the short term.
Now if only she would recognize her horrible taste with men
She didn't expect to live past 18. I think she's allowed a pass for some of her poor judgment. (Agreeing to marry Seymour was just a ruse, anyway.) As annoying as Tidus is, he's the first guy that saw her as a normal young woman and not just Sacrificial Summoner Pawn #427.
Plus, those calves. Damn. Questionable taste in clothing aside, Tidus's character designers sure gave him some sexy legs.
I feel an 80's teen movie makeover montage coming. I'm in!
OnionGuardian wrote:
I also find myself agreeing with a lot of what Gaius says, the only problem being that he takes his views to the extreme. If they were more temperate then I would be fighting for the empire.
I'll explain a bit. In Praetorium he makes a number of comments about how the worship of the 12 is very similar to the Beastmen worship of the primals... and just as the primals are sustained on ether, the 12 need some form of sustenance/offering as well (like prayers, from 1.0... but for all we know, they may consume ether as well). When you consider this it would seem the 12 could essentially care less for the fate of Eorzea unless there's something in it for them- there's no benevolence, no paternalism. So in this way they're very much like the primals, the only difference being that they don't corrupt the minds of their followers.
Gaius also speaks a lot about misplaced faith in false gods and how man should take control of his destiny. And in that I agree. The sheer amount of effort that's needed to convince/summon these gods to do what are basically one-off tasks would be much better spent actually developing competencies needed for development and success. What if the kobolds took all of the time and effort they spent stealing crystals and digging tunnels, and put that into trying to build a peaceful relationship with Limsa? I understand Limsa broke their pact to begin with, but like any type of peace, their needs to be forgiveness in order to move forward. What if the two groups worked together to develop sustainable mining practices- imagine how this would benefit Limsa as a nation. The growth of such an industry would create legitimate jobs for pirates and other folk who were interested, rather than "plunder the empire for now... when they're gone we have no idea what we'll do with you". They would likely overtake Ul'Dah as the mining capital.
The fact that Garleans employ technology could also probably greatly improve the quality of life for everyone around Eorzea if they were to adopt it. Much of the continent is still living in the dark ages- yes they have magic, but maybe a using high powered magitek drill would be a lot more effective than swingining your pickaxe 9 million times? #industrialrevolution
Gaius is also right in his criticism of the GC leaders. They really have no control over what's going on in their borders. Ul'Dah for example is, as Gaius says, extremely corrupt.
Eorzea also seems to rely on a Ceruleum supply for energy. Am I the only one who remembers FFVII and the effects that Mako reactors had on the planet!? Why not replace that with Magitek, which is a clean and efficient form of energy. It's like having access to Iron Man's arc reactor technology that could be used to power every single automobile at an effective cost, but instead electing to continue using a gas powered engine.
Anyway I could keep ranting but I'll leave it there for now. Feel free to disagree. :D
I'll explain a bit. In Praetorium he makes a number of comments about how the worship of the 12 is very similar to the Beastmen worship of the primals... and just as the primals are sustained on ether, the 12 need some form of sustenance/offering as well (like prayers, from 1.0... but for all we know, they may consume ether as well). When you consider this it would seem the 12 could essentially care less for the fate of Eorzea unless there's something in it for them- there's no benevolence, no paternalism. So in this way they're very much like the primals, the only difference being that they don't corrupt the minds of their followers.
Gaius also speaks a lot about misplaced faith in false gods and how man should take control of his destiny. And in that I agree. The sheer amount of effort that's needed to convince/summon these gods to do what are basically one-off tasks would be much better spent actually developing competencies needed for development and success. What if the kobolds took all of the time and effort they spent stealing crystals and digging tunnels, and put that into trying to build a peaceful relationship with Limsa? I understand Limsa broke their pact to begin with, but like any type of peace, their needs to be forgiveness in order to move forward. What if the two groups worked together to develop sustainable mining practices- imagine how this would benefit Limsa as a nation. The growth of such an industry would create legitimate jobs for pirates and other folk who were interested, rather than "plunder the empire for now... when they're gone we have no idea what we'll do with you". They would likely overtake Ul'Dah as the mining capital.
The fact that Garleans employ technology could also probably greatly improve the quality of life for everyone around Eorzea if they were to adopt it. Much of the continent is still living in the dark ages- yes they have magic, but maybe a using high powered magitek drill would be a lot more effective than swingining your pickaxe 9 million times? #industrialrevolution
Gaius is also right in his criticism of the GC leaders. They really have no control over what's going on in their borders. Ul'Dah for example is, as Gaius says, extremely corrupt.
Eorzea also seems to rely on a Ceruleum supply for energy. Am I the only one who remembers FFVII and the effects that Mako reactors had on the planet!? Why not replace that with Magitek, which is a clean and efficient form of energy. It's like having access to Iron Man's arc reactor technology that could be used to power every single automobile at an effective cost, but instead electing to continue using a gas powered engine.
Anyway I could keep ranting but I'll leave it there for now. Feel free to disagree. :D
I agree with what you said but I come to think of it as this if we have a peace agreement that you broke and are killing my people and alliey yourself with a organization that has a inquisition out against my religion why should I continue to be victimized. I look at it as the scions should have railed against limisa for causing this in the first place but instead goes to show they are nothing more then the empire with flashy speeches.
Also the giants that were enslaved and then imprisoned in the copperbell mines, just makes me feel that I'm playing a villain rather then a hero who stands up for right no matter what. It almost drips of racism we can do what we want and its noble you other people who are not us do it and it's atrocities that cannot be stood for
domice wrote:
I have been wanting to post this for a while but i wanted to wait awhile till more people have beat the story.
i find that the good guys are very hypocritical and often times in my eyes the villains. so many place but i will start with the beastmen to try and flesh out my points.
when i look at the friction between titan and kobolds i feel that our side is in the wrong and we are the bad guys. and our philosophy that we have towards them is the same that the garlands have towards us. that we are right you and your way is wrong we will come in and do what ever we want and treat you how ever we want. just the way i look at it is that the conflict is much our fault as it is theirs and we are just as guilty of perpetuating the violence.
even with the sylph and ramuh i feel that they are no different then the Gridanians and how they treat outsiders and would let them die in front of them then even offer the slights help.
just a few of my thoughts
i find that the good guys are very hypocritical and often times in my eyes the villains. so many place but i will start with the beastmen to try and flesh out my points.
when i look at the friction between titan and kobolds i feel that our side is in the wrong and we are the bad guys. and our philosophy that we have towards them is the same that the garlands have towards us. that we are right you and your way is wrong we will come in and do what ever we want and treat you how ever we want. just the way i look at it is that the conflict is much our fault as it is theirs and we are just as guilty of perpetuating the violence.
even with the sylph and ramuh i feel that they are no different then the Gridanians and how they treat outsiders and would let them die in front of them then even offer the slights help.
just a few of my thoughts
At the beginning of the Titan storyline, Y'shtola basically makes this complaint to the Admiral herself. The Limsans had peace with the kobolds, but they had instigated the current conflict and you could hardly blame the kobolds for resorting to their extreme tactics. But they agree to put their differences aside because the safety of the city was at stake.
Xoie wrote:
domice wrote:
I have been wanting to post this for a while but i wanted to wait awhile till more people have beat the story.
i find that the good guys are very hypocritical and often times in my eyes the villains. so many place but i will start with the beastmen to try and flesh out my points.
when i look at the friction between titan and kobolds i feel that our side is in the wrong and we are the bad guys. and our philosophy that we have towards them is the same that the garlands have towards us. that we are right you and your way is wrong we will come in and do what ever we want and treat you how ever we want. just the way i look at it is that the conflict is much our fault as it is theirs and we are just as guilty of perpetuating the violence.
even with the sylph and ramuh i feel that they are no different then the Gridanians and how they treat outsiders and would let them die in front of them then even offer the slights help.
just a few of my thoughts
i find that the good guys are very hypocritical and often times in my eyes the villains. so many place but i will start with the beastmen to try and flesh out my points.
when i look at the friction between titan and kobolds i feel that our side is in the wrong and we are the bad guys. and our philosophy that we have towards them is the same that the garlands have towards us. that we are right you and your way is wrong we will come in and do what ever we want and treat you how ever we want. just the way i look at it is that the conflict is much our fault as it is theirs and we are just as guilty of perpetuating the violence.
even with the sylph and ramuh i feel that they are no different then the Gridanians and how they treat outsiders and would let them die in front of them then even offer the slights help.
just a few of my thoughts
At the beginning of the Titan storyline, Y'shtola basically makes this complaint to the Admiral herself. The Limsans had peace with the kobolds, but they had instigated the current conflict and you could hardly blame the kobolds for resorting to their extreme tactics. But they agree to put their differences aside because the safety of the city was at stake.
And to me this it's where we get to the heart of the issue our side is ok with atrocities as long as we are committing them. So you are the ones the violated to piece treaty are you going to stop..no...are you going to have some peace offering.....no...well what are you going to do...kill them..ok sounds good.
Giants we enslaved you you started to break free so we do a mountain on you. Now we need in the mines and you are tying to free yourself after 300 years what do we do...kill them to.
Then at the end of it all we stand victorious like are are the good guys, when we are far from it. And show no signs of changing.
Consider that this storyline we have is just the first installment in what will hopefully be a long and fruitful game with many expansions.
SE is sure to poke and prod at these moral gray areas a good deal as they tell the tale. When they say that the hallmark of a Final Fantasy game is good storytelling, this is precisely what they're talking about. It's not just good versus evil. It's merely us versus them (and them, and those other guys) and some of those other guys versus everyone because they're chaotic agents and hate everybody.
SE is sure to poke and prod at these moral gray areas a good deal as they tell the tale. When they say that the hallmark of a Final Fantasy game is good storytelling, this is precisely what they're talking about. It's not just good versus evil. It's merely us versus them (and them, and those other guys) and some of those other guys versus everyone because they're chaotic agents and hate everybody.
History is written by the victors.. Right or wrong, the victorious are always right!!
I just have to comment, the whole discussion about how the Garlians are heroes in the eyes of their people is a little flawed.
Their battle strategy is to take over lands, and then send the inhabitants of those lands away as expendable footsoldiers to take over other lands. They mentioned they did this to make sure there would be no rebelling, but wouldnt this also mean that the "Garlian People" are all foreigners to them and hold no allegiance to the Garlian Empire except for one forged out of fear? How big would the original empire truly be if it wasnt for all this hostile takeover stuff, i dont feel it would be any larger than Limsa.
Other than that, speaking of some of the NPC's, the refugees in particular, they mention the men get send out to war or to labor camps, and an even worse fate awaits the women. Think it can go pretty much unsaid what that would be. Still, i cant believe anyone would actively condone those actions and cheer for their leaders.
Seeing how the Garlian empire is a strange mashup of the ancient Romans, Mongols and Germany, i guess history would pretty much agree with SE's point of view, but still. It seems impossible to me myself.
Their battle strategy is to take over lands, and then send the inhabitants of those lands away as expendable footsoldiers to take over other lands. They mentioned they did this to make sure there would be no rebelling, but wouldnt this also mean that the "Garlian People" are all foreigners to them and hold no allegiance to the Garlian Empire except for one forged out of fear? How big would the original empire truly be if it wasnt for all this hostile takeover stuff, i dont feel it would be any larger than Limsa.
Other than that, speaking of some of the NPC's, the refugees in particular, they mention the men get send out to war or to labor camps, and an even worse fate awaits the women. Think it can go pretty much unsaid what that would be. Still, i cant believe anyone would actively condone those actions and cheer for their leaders.
Seeing how the Garlian empire is a strange mashup of the ancient Romans, Mongols and Germany, i guess history would pretty much agree with SE's point of view, but still. It seems impossible to me myself.
KojiroSoma wrote:
I just have to comment, the whole discussion about how the Garlians are heroes in the eyes of their people is a little flawed.
Their battle strategy is to take over lands, and then send the inhabitants of those lands away as expendable footsoldiers to take over other lands. They mentioned they did this to make sure there would be no rebelling, but wouldnt this also mean that the "Garlian People" are all foreigners to them and hold no allegiance to the Garlian Empire except for one forged out of fear? How big would the original empire truly be if it wasnt for all this hostile takeover stuff, i dont feel it would be any larger than Limsa.
Other than that, speaking of some of the NPC's, the refugees in particular, they mention the men get send out to war or to labor camps, and an even worse fate awaits the women. Think it can go pretty much unsaid what that would be. Still, i cant believe anyone would actively condone those actions and cheer for their leaders.
Seeing how the Garlian empire is a strange mashup of the ancient Romans, Mongols and Germany, i guess history would pretty much agree with SE's point of view, but still. It seems impossible to me myself.
Their battle strategy is to take over lands, and then send the inhabitants of those lands away as expendable footsoldiers to take over other lands. They mentioned they did this to make sure there would be no rebelling, but wouldnt this also mean that the "Garlian People" are all foreigners to them and hold no allegiance to the Garlian Empire except for one forged out of fear? How big would the original empire truly be if it wasnt for all this hostile takeover stuff, i dont feel it would be any larger than Limsa.
Other than that, speaking of some of the NPC's, the refugees in particular, they mention the men get send out to war or to labor camps, and an even worse fate awaits the women. Think it can go pretty much unsaid what that would be. Still, i cant believe anyone would actively condone those actions and cheer for their leaders.
Seeing how the Garlian empire is a strange mashup of the ancient Romans, Mongols and Germany, i guess history would pretty much agree with SE's point of view, but still. It seems impossible to me myself.
I think the person was starting how the subordinates of the main villain loved him and none of them were native to garlian. Cuz in the empire once you in the military you are equal and many of the villains came from some nation where they saw as wrong and embraced the change the empire have them.
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