....really, dungeons aren't that complicated. I'm not 50 yet but have run every dungeon multiple times up to, and including Cutters Cry. The reason for my post is that I read much about how dungeons are supposed to ramp up after Copperbell. I read Hitali was supposed to test you, then Bryflox was "complicated." Now, after Temple and Cutters, I am left wondering where the challenge was....until I got my first group with new to the dungeon players that didn't take time to at least read what the mechanics were, let alone attempt to understand them, and it became infinitely difficult.
To that I can see where people are coming from when they want to run with others that already know the content. After 4 wipes on the same boss in Temple, not due to gear, or me explaining what everyone should do, it was clear that as long as these people refuse to pay attention, we were destined to fail and time out.
And I am aware the debate over whether one should research before queuing DF is, or is not applicable, however, because of how unforgiving some boss mechanics can be, I believe it's imperative to understand what is happening in order to avoid/prevent a wipe.
Now, after so many dungeon runs, I can say, in my encounters, every single failure was due simply to one or more party members not knowing what to do, or not doing what is explained to them before getting started. You can tell just how easy these things are when you have a competent group of players. It's night and day.
So in closing, take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with your next dungeon run and see just how smooth and enjoyable the experience can be.
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it's all simple mechanics. shouldn't be this hard.Follow
SistinasAria wrote:
So in closing, take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with your next dungeon run and see just how smooth and enjoyable the experience can be.
^This
There are multiple youtube videos out for each dungeon. I normally watch 1 or 2 to get an understanding of the place.
No reason people can not take just an extra few minutes and do just a tad bit of research into a dungeon and it's boss fights.
Scholar
36 posts
First 10 Hitali runs were a breeze. Then the 11th hit and after explaining over and over to hit the lamps and kill the bombs then the eye and 6 wipes, I left. Next run, same thing but they finally got it. I am now on Bryflox and can't wait to see what is waiting.
Well, no dungeon aside from BC is hard at all unless you
1) were new and no guides were out at the time
2) under geared
3) under skilled (too much fate leveling)
4) cant read
5) cant follow directions
I find the reason most people have issues with sunken temple is that people cant read/follow directions to cancel doom/kill bees. If you can beat the first boss you can beat the dungeon.
Cutters cry is actually 10x easier than sunken temple. its last boss can be duo'ed with a pld + whm (did it last night when we got tired of our blm+rng not dodging ae).
brayflox is only really hard because its the first fight where a healer and tank have to both move and half a$$ healer who doesnt see tank go out of range will kill everyone. This can also be hard if the tank is under geared/doesnt dodge the frontal ae.
1) were new and no guides were out at the time
2) under geared
3) under skilled (too much fate leveling)
4) cant read
5) cant follow directions
I find the reason most people have issues with sunken temple is that people cant read/follow directions to cancel doom/kill bees. If you can beat the first boss you can beat the dungeon.
Cutters cry is actually 10x easier than sunken temple. its last boss can be duo'ed with a pld + whm (did it last night when we got tired of our blm+rng not dodging ae).
brayflox is only really hard because its the first fight where a healer and tank have to both move and half a$$ healer who doesnt see tank go out of range will kill everyone. This can also be hard if the tank is under geared/doesnt dodge the frontal ae.
you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn.
as for dungeon difficulty, the only one that gave me trouble was the sunken temple of qarn, and i would say is the hardest dungeon in the duty finder (which is debateable maybe, aurum vale isn't a cake walk for new players either).
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.
And the problem of "people want to run with others who already know the content" is only a problem because of the way square made progression. It;s designed to finish a dungeon as fast as possible to get your 100 points. If they designed the dungeons so killing trash in a dungeon was viable (dynamis anyone?) then this "speed run" mentality would go away.
as for dungeon difficulty, the only one that gave me trouble was the sunken temple of qarn, and i would say is the hardest dungeon in the duty finder (which is debateable maybe, aurum vale isn't a cake walk for new players either).
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.
And the problem of "people want to run with others who already know the content" is only a problem because of the way square made progression. It;s designed to finish a dungeon as fast as possible to get your 100 points. If they designed the dungeons so killing trash in a dungeon was viable (dynamis anyone?) then this "speed run" mentality would go away.
SistinasAria wrote:
And I am aware the debate over whether one should research before queuing DF is, or is not applicable, however, because of how unforgiving some boss mechanics can be, I believe it's imperative to understand what is happening in order to avoid/prevent a wipe.
People are too afraid to wipe. 90 minutes to clear a dungeon is generous. You can wipe to a boss and still have time to clear the dungeon, provided that the players learn from the wipe. The problem is when a player doesn't learn and adjust after a wipe.
This again I think comes down to a question of improperly set expectations. This same issue arises when the "speed run" issue is discussed, you can reference every "I was in a DF and someone dropped because I wasn't geared enough" thread (the issue there being the expectations set by the person that dropped, not the differently geared person).
If you are forming a party of your own through shouts, there is nothing wrong with recruiting people who meet whatever your specific wants are, ie. must have done this before. If you are in DF, you get what you get and any complaint about a lack of knowledge shows only that you've set your expectations to high. While I can't disagree with Keysofgaruda insofar as he says "you shouldn't have to research..." I think it's incumbent upon everyone to not be useless in events if the information is out there. You should avail yourself of it and come as prepared as you can be without actually having experienced it first hand. Doesn't have to be hours of research, just a few minutes watching a video. Anything less in my humble and personal opinion is rude and disrespectful of other people's time. That's my opinion though and I only speak for myself. As far as the the rest I think the sensible expectation/reaction is as Keys has set out. First attempt to explain if the knowledge is lacking, then make some attempts, and if all fails, leave, because nobody (other than unreasonable people on the opposite end of the spectrum) expects you to sit there until the clock runs out failing at one thing repeatedly.
If you are forming a party of your own through shouts, there is nothing wrong with recruiting people who meet whatever your specific wants are, ie. must have done this before. If you are in DF, you get what you get and any complaint about a lack of knowledge shows only that you've set your expectations to high. While I can't disagree with Keysofgaruda insofar as he says "you shouldn't have to research..." I think it's incumbent upon everyone to not be useless in events if the information is out there. You should avail yourself of it and come as prepared as you can be without actually having experienced it first hand. Doesn't have to be hours of research, just a few minutes watching a video. Anything less in my humble and personal opinion is rude and disrespectful of other people's time. That's my opinion though and I only speak for myself. As far as the the rest I think the sensible expectation/reaction is as Keys has set out. First attempt to explain if the knowledge is lacking, then make some attempts, and if all fails, leave, because nobody (other than unreasonable people on the opposite end of the spectrum) expects you to sit there until the clock runs out failing at one thing repeatedly.
Sadly i can't disagree more with most of these statements keysofgaruda
No you shouldn't have to, but if the information is there, and you choose not to read it on one of 200+ websites, or watch 1 of over 20 you tube videos, then you are putting yourself and the party at a handicap. I don't have to read anything before I try a new dungeon, but if we wipe 20+ times and end up not clearing it, all i have done is waste peoples times on something that could have been prevented
You have set some low expectations, and Qarns last boss is for a 35-37 dungeon, arguably 72% through your leveling career (36/50). At this point you have been required to do several story dungeons leading up to it, and while not required guildhestes have taught you of most of the other mechanics. Even on a decent group, i expect to die 1-4 times on that first boss in qqarn. The last boss isnt really a pain at all compared to the first boss.
Here is the thing, why do i have to teach someone how to do it, when the information is there for them to teach them self? This is like saying I should help people who wont help them self. I dont believe in that mentality. I help people who can't help them self, not those that wont. OP had it right, its all simple mechanics... Read up first then learn as you go. If they read it and still dont understand "hey what does XXX mean" is more than acceptable. Or "Hey it says to stand behind XYZ but i am still geting hit, any pointers"
I read 2 strategies for the princess in cutters cry. We tried number 1, it failed, then we tried number 2 and it worked fine. Dieing and whiping is okay, specially on 4 man dungeons where you cant always garuntee you will have a whm or a blm or a bard...or w/e class you need to make that dungeon easier.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 1:20pm by dustinfoley
Keysofgaruda wrote:
you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn.
No you shouldn't have to, but if the information is there, and you choose not to read it on one of 200+ websites, or watch 1 of over 20 you tube videos, then you are putting yourself and the party at a handicap. I don't have to read anything before I try a new dungeon, but if we wipe 20+ times and end up not clearing it, all i have done is waste peoples times on something that could have been prevented
Quote:
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?
You have set some low expectations, and Qarns last boss is for a 35-37 dungeon, arguably 72% through your leveling career (36/50). At this point you have been required to do several story dungeons leading up to it, and while not required guildhestes have taught you of most of the other mechanics. Even on a decent group, i expect to die 1-4 times on that first boss in qqarn. The last boss isnt really a pain at all compared to the first boss.
Quote:
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.
Here is the thing, why do i have to teach someone how to do it, when the information is there for them to teach them self? This is like saying I should help people who wont help them self. I dont believe in that mentality. I help people who can't help them self, not those that wont. OP had it right, its all simple mechanics... Read up first then learn as you go. If they read it and still dont understand "hey what does XXX mean" is more than acceptable. Or "Hey it says to stand behind XYZ but i am still geting hit, any pointers"
I read 2 strategies for the princess in cutters cry. We tried number 1, it failed, then we tried number 2 and it worked fine. Dieing and whiping is okay, specially on 4 man dungeons where you cant always garuntee you will have a whm or a blm or a bard...or w/e class you need to make that dungeon easier.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 1:20pm by dustinfoley
I think the definition of difficult has been redefined at some point, and I no longer know what is easy or difficult.
As for everything before Bahamut's Coil as being easy, I can think of a few things that can result in death, and even reset before successful completion. The hardest dungeon I can think of doing recently (and while I have been spamming WP as of late, I haven't done too many other dungeons) AV definitely comes to mind.
This is (like WP) more of a traditional Final Fantasy environment. You have the Ochu, followed by the Cyclops, followed by a Malboro mob for bosses.
In this dungeon, it is not so much about the timing, as knowing where to be, and what to expect, as well as dealing more damage than you take.
My first run through this dungeon after 1.0, We ran through it and beat it in about 20 mins. We had one wipe the entire run (which was good as two of the pt had not yet seen the new map). And the wipe was to the Malboro at the end (we didn't put as much focus on the seedlings as we should have, and learned very quickly not to underestimate them).
My next run through, which I did this weekend, we timed out on CoinCounter. It took us a good 10 wipes to get down the Ochu, and with 30 minutes left we tried CoinCounter a couple of times, and I kept mistaking 100 Ton Swing for 100 Ton Swipe, and we had a few issues with getting down damage practices on Eye of the Beholder.
We restarted the dungeon, made it past the Ochu on the first try. Got CoinCounter after 2~3 more tries, and got the Malboro in 2 tries. All and all, not a bad showing.
However, easy mechanics, and easy dungeon it was not to me. And other than the issue with Swing and Swipe, I have those bosses down fairly solid.
The same can be said for WP. Don't get me wrong, other than the fact that I have seen a few wipes to the slimes, there are a few points in that dungeon that if you do not react correctly, the party will die. If you are not fast enough, or slow enough in some areas, the Tonberry Stalker will start messing with you. You need to find safe points, and adjust to the aggro. These are not easy things to me. They require an understanding, and practice to adjust to.
The Slimes especially. With one or more Relic geared DDs, they will typically expect you to not even mess with the slimes, and will focus on the main jelly. As a result, the tank needs to hold (my record was 7) all the slimes while everyone simply burns the main guy. As a result, that means the tank is getting hit by every debuff the spit out, including Paralyze (a paladins worst enemy), with 5-7 debuffs on you, and keeping the mobs on you while they are chasing someone else, and getting hit by all spin attacks, it is beyond difficult to nearly impossible to keep the healer alive. And if more than one gets away from you, it's a wipe.
Then there is CM. One of the easiest of the level 50 dungeons. With one minor exception. The cannons can not be destroyed. With a Paladin in the party, that is not a tall order, as I typically stun any of the big guys who can one shot the cannons. However, all it takes is someone getting aggro, or a bad pull, or the tank dying at the cannons (falls into the bad pull category), and you lose all of your cannons.
Add to that the cannon fight at the end can end up getting messy if people don't know or understand how hate works in that fight (also goes for the last stage with Livia, had a few fights end because the healers didn't know that hate can not be transfered from the adds... So they start running the adds around, preventing people from killing them...)
TL;DR
Ease and difficulty now appear to be the byproduct of knowledge.
To me, easy and difficult have a deeper, more traditional meaning. Where it is the difference in skill required to complete a task. Someone who has more skill can complete a more difficult task with greater ease than someone who has less skill. And while the difficulty of the task is less for the skilled person, the task itself does not depreciate in difficulty.
This is a principal practice in employment, and in life in general. We create tools so that difficult task become easy tasks. As the tool will handle the difficult aspect, or reduce the amount of skill necessary to complete the task. Such as a dish washer, or laundry machine. Now, a task that would take a significant amount of time and effort, and required more focused work is as simple as putting items into a device, inserting a cleaning agent, and activating the device. When the device completes it's task, you remove what you put in, and you can move on to the next task and/or restart.
As for everything before Bahamut's Coil as being easy, I can think of a few things that can result in death, and even reset before successful completion. The hardest dungeon I can think of doing recently (and while I have been spamming WP as of late, I haven't done too many other dungeons) AV definitely comes to mind.
This is (like WP) more of a traditional Final Fantasy environment. You have the Ochu, followed by the Cyclops, followed by a Malboro mob for bosses.
In this dungeon, it is not so much about the timing, as knowing where to be, and what to expect, as well as dealing more damage than you take.
My first run through this dungeon after 1.0, We ran through it and beat it in about 20 mins. We had one wipe the entire run (which was good as two of the pt had not yet seen the new map). And the wipe was to the Malboro at the end (we didn't put as much focus on the seedlings as we should have, and learned very quickly not to underestimate them).
My next run through, which I did this weekend, we timed out on CoinCounter. It took us a good 10 wipes to get down the Ochu, and with 30 minutes left we tried CoinCounter a couple of times, and I kept mistaking 100 Ton Swing for 100 Ton Swipe, and we had a few issues with getting down damage practices on Eye of the Beholder.
We restarted the dungeon, made it past the Ochu on the first try. Got CoinCounter after 2~3 more tries, and got the Malboro in 2 tries. All and all, not a bad showing.
However, easy mechanics, and easy dungeon it was not to me. And other than the issue with Swing and Swipe, I have those bosses down fairly solid.
The same can be said for WP. Don't get me wrong, other than the fact that I have seen a few wipes to the slimes, there are a few points in that dungeon that if you do not react correctly, the party will die. If you are not fast enough, or slow enough in some areas, the Tonberry Stalker will start messing with you. You need to find safe points, and adjust to the aggro. These are not easy things to me. They require an understanding, and practice to adjust to.
The Slimes especially. With one or more Relic geared DDs, they will typically expect you to not even mess with the slimes, and will focus on the main jelly. As a result, the tank needs to hold (my record was 7) all the slimes while everyone simply burns the main guy. As a result, that means the tank is getting hit by every debuff the spit out, including Paralyze (a paladins worst enemy), with 5-7 debuffs on you, and keeping the mobs on you while they are chasing someone else, and getting hit by all spin attacks, it is beyond difficult to nearly impossible to keep the healer alive. And if more than one gets away from you, it's a wipe.
Then there is CM. One of the easiest of the level 50 dungeons. With one minor exception. The cannons can not be destroyed. With a Paladin in the party, that is not a tall order, as I typically stun any of the big guys who can one shot the cannons. However, all it takes is someone getting aggro, or a bad pull, or the tank dying at the cannons (falls into the bad pull category), and you lose all of your cannons.
Add to that the cannon fight at the end can end up getting messy if people don't know or understand how hate works in that fight (also goes for the last stage with Livia, had a few fights end because the healers didn't know that hate can not be transfered from the adds... So they start running the adds around, preventing people from killing them...)
TL;DR
Ease and difficulty now appear to be the byproduct of knowledge.
To me, easy and difficult have a deeper, more traditional meaning. Where it is the difference in skill required to complete a task. Someone who has more skill can complete a more difficult task with greater ease than someone who has less skill. And while the difficulty of the task is less for the skilled person, the task itself does not depreciate in difficulty.
This is a principal practice in employment, and in life in general. We create tools so that difficult task become easy tasks. As the tool will handle the difficult aspect, or reduce the amount of skill necessary to complete the task. Such as a dish washer, or laundry machine. Now, a task that would take a significant amount of time and effort, and required more focused work is as simple as putting items into a device, inserting a cleaning agent, and activating the device. When the device completes it's task, you remove what you put in, and you can move on to the next task and/or restart.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/729735/
Keysofgaruda wrote:
you shouldn'r have to research anything before you give an event a shot. the game wasn't designed that way. how did the first people who ever ran the dungeon do it? they ran it and figured it out themselves. I blame games being made today. They are way too easy and people don't learn
And most of these people then shared info (forums, videos, in-game chat), ran with GC members, or voiced on How To if they ever ran the dungeon again.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
as for dungeon difficulty, the only one that gave me trouble was the sunken temple of qarn, and i would say is the hardest dungeon in the duty finder (which is debateable maybe, aurum vale isn't a cake walk for new players either).
Keysofgaruda wrote:
i would like to ask you, are you an FFXI player? or an MMo player? if yes, i think you are forgetting that a lot of people are new to this. Some are even casual players and are still learning the game. They deserve a chance to try the content. Even if it takes 3 4 5 wipes. What might be easy to you and me might not be easy to other people simply because they don't play as much or are new. The temple of qarn's last boss is a huge pain in the *** for a level 30 dungeon. How do you expect people who arent that experienced to get that many mechanics down in a single run, or even two?
Research. Why is it so bad to look into a fight?
Played FFXI, it helped me as a player to read about info for End game events.
Played and Raided in WoW. It was expected for raid members to research (videos, forums, etc) raids and boss fights that way everyone had a "base" idea on what was about to happen. The only time we really sat there in vent or chat and went step by step was with PuG people.
Keysofgaruda wrote:
The best you can do is try to teach people how the fight is done. If they refuse to listen just leave. If they do listen at least try to help them. You're basically saying they should all know what they are doing the first time they do something. That isn't logical and isn't fair to those people.
Will not hurt. All I type in at youtube's search box is: FFXIV [insert w/e]
Not saying I have researched every dungeon fight, because I have not. I ran Sunken Temple the other day because a friend wanted to, strait up told him "I'v never ran, and know nothing about it." He was ok with that. Had he given me 10min, I would had looked up the dungeon to have an idea on what was going to happen...
Keysofgaruda wrote:
And the problem of "people want to run with others who already know the content" is only a problem because of the way square made progression. It;s designed to finish a dungeon as fast as possible to get your 100 points. If they designed the dungeons so killing trash in a dungeon was viable (dynamis anyone?) then this "speed run" mentality would go away.
This isn't FFXI, it needs not be a copy of.
I've yet to have an issue with the "run with people who have already done" part.
Trash is what makes most dungeons so long in the 1st place, being able to skip packs is always nice.
The use of casual players to fall back on to why a game is easy or not is starting to get old. I only get to play about 2 hours a day. I think I'm pretty casual. Heck I'm still leveling (43 atm).
If these casual players are so limited on time to give 10min to research fights, quests, hunt logs, etc. than they are going to have a hard time if they ever wish to do end game content.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 2:20pm by Sandinmygum
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.
It's so odd that people refuse to avail themselves of less than 10 seconds of googling in a fantastic age where this is all readily available. Remember the good ol' days of nicely printed hardcopy game guides? That took some time and effort by way of acquiring the money to buy them and then going to the place that sold them to purchase it and then skimming it to find the topics that interested you. Nowadays... Visit Google, type some words in there *don't even have to spell them right anymore*, up come results, pick one, knowledge gained / or ****.
Interesting times.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 3:12pm by Furiousnixon
It's so odd that people refuse to avail themselves of less than 10 seconds of googling in a fantastic age where this is all readily available. Remember the good ol' days of nicely printed hardcopy game guides? That took some time and effort by way of acquiring the money to buy them and then going to the place that sold them to purchase it and then skimming it to find the topics that interested you. Nowadays... Visit Google, type some words in there *don't even have to spell them right anymore*, up come results, pick one, knowledge gained / or ****.
Interesting times.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 3:12pm by Furiousnixon
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.
Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.
Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.
Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.
Well ya I would have thought that wasn't asking much. First hand knowledge is great but as this thread is not so subtly hinting at, it isn't that complicated. Getting a grounding on the theory of the fight can't hurt. It's like having the choreography explained to you, with a video of it being done or diagrams even (Coil turn 4 diagrams are a great example), and then putting that into practice. Pretty standard learning model not at all exclusive to boss encounters in MMOs or gaming in general. Not sure why all of a sudden it's reprehensible to even suggest it might be a good idea.
i think you guys mistunderstood my post. i didn't say no one should do research. it's there yes, but the content isn't so hard that its required. If you keep wiping then ya go check a video out because maybe your missing something that you didn't see while doing the fight. I do research all the time because i choose to and want to make sure that i know what i'm doing. the point i think your missing though, is that a video is not equal to experience. i can check out a titan video 100 times in a row but that doesnt mean i'll go in there and 1/1 the fight. A video is a good starting place if it's available but it isn't a replacement for experience.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 11:48pm by Keysofgaruda
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 11:48pm by Keysofgaruda
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.
I think the key word is "expect". We all have expectations, and they differ from player to player. If another player has significantly higher expectations than you, then they are an elitist. If another player has significantly lower expectations than you, then they're a noob, or a casual, or dead weight, or whatever.
Preparation and research isn't the key to having an enjoyable dungeon experience. Managing your own expectations is the key to having an enjoyable dungeon experience. If you expect a group of random strangers brought together by the dungeon finder to all have carefully researched the dungeon and clear it without wiping or having difficulties in general, you've stacked the deck against yourself in the expectations department.
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 4:52pm by svlyons
Wanted to toss in that 95% of FFXI players would never have completed CoP prior to 2010 if it wasn't for ZAM's own Erecia.
That said, I agree that the dungeon mechanics aren't that hard if you've been reading and paying attention to the text in the game. Seems like a large chunk of the player base has the "spam thru the dumb cs text lol" attitude, which really hurts when those cutscenes are giving you basic instructions on how to perform your job in a group setting.
NPCs are constantly yelling out instructions and coaching you prior to and during fights where they assist you. 'Fight this one first!' 'Leave the boss to me, you take care of the adds!'
I love, love love love that NPCs are not static quest givers in XIV. They are coaches, assists, team mates. They teach and they help. They participate in the fight and heal you and tank for you. Heck, the guards outside hamlets will happily kill aggro for you if they need to!
Research in the game is needed only if you haven't been letting the game give you instructions along the way.
That said, I agree that the dungeon mechanics aren't that hard if you've been reading and paying attention to the text in the game. Seems like a large chunk of the player base has the "spam thru the dumb cs text lol" attitude, which really hurts when those cutscenes are giving you basic instructions on how to perform your job in a group setting.
NPCs are constantly yelling out instructions and coaching you prior to and during fights where they assist you. 'Fight this one first!' 'Leave the boss to me, you take care of the adds!'
I love, love love love that NPCs are not static quest givers in XIV. They are coaches, assists, team mates. They teach and they help. They participate in the fight and heal you and tank for you. Heck, the guards outside hamlets will happily kill aggro for you if they need to!
Research in the game is needed only if you haven't been letting the game give you instructions along the way.
really there's no excuse for not being able to figure out the mechanics of most if not all the dungeons in the course of running them. Videos not needed at all. I know this because i am far from the best player out there and i was able to do just fine. On some runs we had a player with prior experience give us a couple lines of explanation. On many, all four people were first-timers, and it was not an issue (although most of the bosses i've wiped on at least once before downing). Also, it was way more fun not knowing what to expect. almost like playing a real rpg!!
Primals/coil, I'd certainly advise doing your homework.
Primals/coil, I'd certainly advise doing your homework.
Sandinmygum wrote:
Research. Why is it so bad to look into a fight?
Played FFXI, it helped me as a player to read about info for End game events.
Played and Raided in WoW. It was expected for raid members to research (videos, forums, etc) raids and boss fights that way everyone had a "base" idea on what was about to happen. The only time we really sat there in vent or chat and went step by step was with PuG people.
I have a totally different viewpoint of this. I was at the forefront of raiding in WoW for many years, and there were no guides. We put together strategies based on what we observed from boss mechanics, and expected people to use their brains. That's what I expect from people to this day when I run anything, pug or otherwise, to simply use your brain. Understand the game, understand the role, and use your head to survive. ***** meters, or any other metric of success besides wiping and killing. Playing the game, getting used to it, and using your head is what kills bosses, not staring down some drawn-out guide with a crappy video at the end. If you think a player is suddenly going to become good at a game because they watched a video, your expectations are set far off. No amount of online reading is a substitute for actual play time, and most of the people who are slow to grasp mechanics specifically lack game time. I've been playing MMO's in one shape or form for almost two decades now, casual to hard-core progression, and I can tell you at any level, there is no substitute for experience, and asking for anything without that experienced background is just a waste of everyone's time.
People are so caught up in efficiency that they'll never achieve that they think everyone should have to make the most of any information available to defeat simple dungeon bosses, when really, you just need to use your brain. These same people generally have no patience for people whose brains are a bit slower on the uptake or just simply don't have as much exposure to different events, and thus how to react favorably when things don't go as planned, and I, in turn, have no patience for you (not you personally, the metaphorical "you, who fits in this shoe"). I've taught so many "bad" players how to get better, and many become better than I can be now, yet I've not once been able to teach the person who thinks the game is not hard, and everyone else is holding them back regardless of what they do.
You wouldn't believe how never I have these issues because of the way I approach the game. I legitimately never have any of these problems, and I play almost exclusively through DF these days, daily. Yes, even Titan.
Quote:
I have a totally different viewpoint of this. I was at the forefront of raiding in WoW for many years, and there were no guides. We put together strategies based on what we observed from boss mechanics, and expected people to use their brains. That's what I expect from people to this day when I run anything, pug or otherwise, to simply use your brain. Understand the game, understand the role, and use your head to survive. ***** meters, or any other metric of success besides wiping and killing. Playing the game, getting used to it, and using your head is what kills bosses, not staring down some drawn-out guide with a crappy video at the end. If you think a player is suddenly going to become good at a game because they watched a video, your expectations are set far off. No amount of online reading is a substitute for actual play time, and most of the people who are slow to grasp mechanics specifically lack game time. I've been playing MMO's in one shape or form for almost two decades now, casual to hard-core progression, and I can tell you at any level, there is no substitute for experience, and asking for anything without that experienced background is just a waste of everyone's time.
I came from that same kind of environment and a similar timeline of experience.
Here's the thing.. you and I are not the average MMO player. For that matter, neither are the vast majority of people who read forums like this one. Most people don't put in extra time to research and get better at the games they're playing, they just play them. And some of them learn from their experiences and mistakes and become better players for it, and most of them don't.
I agree with the poster above who said that playing in the DF is all about managing your own expectations. Expecting randoms to have our level of experience is unreasonable. Expecting randoms to learn as quickly as we do is also unreasonable.
Eventually they'll learn from what they're doing, or they won't.. there isn't a thing you can do about it except try to help them learn whatever it is you're trying to do with them. It has to be their choice to go and find out more. It has to be their choice to not be spoonfed information from experienced players getting more and more exasperated with them. It has to be their choice to become better.
I can tell you that I never looked up guides for how to do dungeons in this game. I watched, I learned, sometimes I died, but I didn't repeat mistakes. Not everyone works like that. Some people honestly cannot see what they're doing wrong until you tell them. Some people don't care. And some others are doing it wrong on purpose.
You're always rolling the dice when you're talking about random players.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
dustinfoley wrote:
No you shouldn't have to, but if the information is there, and you choose not to read it on one of 200+ websites, or watch 1 of over 20 you tube videos, then you are putting yourself and the party at a handicap. I don't have to read anything before I try a new dungeon, but if we wipe 20+ times and end up not clearing it, all i have done is waste peoples times on something that could have been prevented
If you wipe 20 times, the problem is not that someone didn't watch a video, it's that people are not learning from their mistakes. Watching more youtube videos isn't going to fix that.
For some people, figuring out the dungeon is part of the fun. Not everyone jumps straight to the strategy guide to give them all the answers.
I think part of the problem here is the mentality of "if you wipe, you suck" Some are just not tolerant of mistakes. Reality is, we are all human and we all make mistakes. Wipes will happen. The key thing is that people learn from their mistakes.
When I did stone vigil, all 4 of us were first timers in that dungeon. We wiped 3 times, each time we figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and tried again and eventually beat the dungeon.
There's too many groups where people rage quit after 1 wipe.
Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
Furiousnixon wrote:
As an interesting aside I saw a comment, I don't know if it was here anymore because my memory fails me sometimes, that stated explicitly that "expecting full knowledge of a fight" was some kind of elitism.
Never understood this in my 10+ years of MMO playing.
I'm not saying you should know every second of a fight, but there is no reason to not know if the boss does Front, Cone, Backward AE attacks, Full room AoEs, if extras spawn, etc.
In my 10+ years of playing I'll never understand why people overlook this. If that 'Front, Cone, Backward AE attack' has the possibility of wiping your group, then you should damn well know it. Why wouldn't you want to be aware of something that will kill you?
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?
Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.
Once again.. the randoms in your DF groups aren't NOT doing that because it's hard to do, they're not doing it because they don't want to or don't care.
The very fact you're having this discussion on a fansite forum should tell you that the people you're talking to right now are, by and large, not the people messing your groups up. We're the ones that take our gaming just that much more seriously that we're spending time here.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
I played through Brayflox this weekend on my WHM, and I will confess, I am not the 'read before you adventure' type. I went in blind, because I sort of want to be my character (as insane as that may sound), I want a little sensation of the anxiety of the unknown (from the safety of my bedroom >.> ).
I had a couple of FC friends with me, so it wasn't so bad, and we were cracking jokes and having a merry adventure and then the dragon dropped out of the sky. I dropped my controller the first time, totally wasn't expecting that. And then one of my FC mates said, "and now we get to go kill it."
And we wiped like ten times. Partly due to my inexperience, and a little bit on our first tank (who was less than patient with me, but that's another tale of woe for some other thread). It was a really intense battle for me and I just kept at it, going over any mistakes I made and working to avoid repeating them.
The main point I'm trying to make was that it was exciting and I got such a rush when we finally beat the dragon and my hands were shaking and my heart was pounding and I was like "YUS! Victory is mine!" /chopoffdragonhead.
I know that there is a part of the community that feels that the whole point is winning efficiently, but there are those of us who feel that the whole point is adventuring.
You don't Adventure out of a guide.
edit: grammar
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 9:10pm by Jjnnyrr
I had a couple of FC friends with me, so it wasn't so bad, and we were cracking jokes and having a merry adventure and then the dragon dropped out of the sky. I dropped my controller the first time, totally wasn't expecting that. And then one of my FC mates said, "and now we get to go kill it."
And we wiped like ten times. Partly due to my inexperience, and a little bit on our first tank (who was less than patient with me, but that's another tale of woe for some other thread). It was a really intense battle for me and I just kept at it, going over any mistakes I made and working to avoid repeating them.
The main point I'm trying to make was that it was exciting and I got such a rush when we finally beat the dragon and my hands were shaking and my heart was pounding and I was like "YUS! Victory is mine!" /chopoffdragonhead.
I know that there is a part of the community that feels that the whole point is winning efficiently, but there are those of us who feel that the whole point is adventuring.
You don't Adventure out of a guide.
edit: grammar
Edited, Oct 28th 2013 9:10pm by Jjnnyrr
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?
Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.
And the consequences are far different. I don't mind the element of danger from not knowing what lies ahead in a dungeon. There is nothing enjoyable about being hit by a car.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Do you look before you cross the street? Same concept. You take a moment to make yourself aware so that there are no accidents. C'mon people, are we really that lazy?
Bad analogy... looking both ways before you cross the street takes less than one second. Researching a boss fight takes quite a lot longer.
Not if you know where and how to look. In the grand scheme of how much of your life force you might drain, it's a drop in the bucket. You could take 2-3 mins to read the strategy or you can go in blind and waste half an hour or more wiping. The analogy was extreme yes, but it's the same concept. If you don't check to see what danger lies ahead, you're throwing your life(or time which is considered to be the same) away.
Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Many of the people I'm talking to are taking the side of the ignorant. "It's OK for people to come to instances unprepared. We need to take the time to teach them how to play". No. No we don't.
I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.
I get that some of us are experienced enough or care enough about our time to sac 2 minutes instead of half an hour, but we're not the majority. This is not an isolated issue that happens to people once a month or something. It's a daily operation.
The solution for you isn't for everyone else to change what they're doing so that anyone you group with through Duty Finder meets your expectations. The solution is for you to group up with people you know that already meet your expectations.
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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