Allow me to preface this post by saying that I am an older gamer. I have a career, family, and limited time to commit to this amazing game. That being said, I've been taking it slow, and just immersing myself in the experience of the game and the world of Eorzea. I found the journey to 50 to be an exciting one filled with ups and downs, but mostly hard fought triumphs. Along the journey to 50 I found the community, even in the DF pug groups to generally be fun loving, helpful, and quite understanding of one another.
Since hitting level 50, I have noticed a drastic change in how people treat one another, particularly in dungeon groups. Recently I have been farming CM and Prae to work on collecting my tomes. Most of my CM groups have been extremely smooth, minus a snafu here or there. Prae is a bit tougher, especially while new players are trying to get the hang of the Ultima Weapon fight mechanics. What I have begun to notice though is how much intolerance people have for even the smallest mistakes of new players. I've seen groups go from happy go lucky to a gang of belligerent sharks in blood infested water who continuously and unfairly berate a single player for a simple mistake. I just find it really hard to condone this type of attitude. Watching this type of abuse of new players, even if not directed at me personally, just saps the fun out of the game. I love FF games for the terrific sense of community. To not see older more seasoned players step up to help their fellow teammates just doesn't sit right with me. Yes, I know everyone is going to say “Why not just do runs with your FC. DF groups are a nightmare“. I get that, but sometimes isn't it nice to just meet some new people? Make some new connections, forge new bonds with other players in game? Is that not what MMO's are about? For me the social aspect is very important, if it wasn't, I would just stick to console games.
Thinking about it more and what these attitudes are stemming from, I think it has to do with the reward system of the dungeons themselves. Particularly with CM and Prae, there are absolutely no rewards for participating in the instance unless the final boss is cleared. No exp, no gil, no gear, no tomes.....nada. Thus, everyone is in a mad rush to the end, otherwise all the time spent getting to the end is a total and absolute waste of time. To me, this seems to be a design flaw. The rewards for an instance should be spread throughout the dungeons with the largest rewards saved for the end with the clearing of the boss. This is how all of the pre-50 dungeons work. Why did they change that formula for CM and Prae? I think if the rewards were more spread out then people would be more forgiving about new players finding their stride through new encounters because they would be continuously rewarded throughout the encounters and not be in such a mad rush to simply reach the end.
Sorry for the long post. Just wondering how other people feel concerning this topic. When playing an MMO I want to feel a part of something greater than myself. I want to help other people to achieve and progress. I want to feel a sense of community. Why people are interested in blindly bull-rushing forward in a race that has no end is beyond my comprehension. That aside, I think structurally, end game can be improved upon to encourage better relations amongst players.
Edited, Oct 10th 2013 9:22pm by DrCapricious
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CM and Praetorium were NEVER EVER meant to be farmed for Tomes, they are simply story dungeons. This is what the player base has designated themselves after the Speed run method of AK was partially patched (it's still possible to run AK in 18mins, provide you are overgeared with iLvl 90). The grind dungeon for lvl 50 should be WP and AK.
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
Edited, Oct 10th 2013 11:10pm by Khornette
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
Edited, Oct 10th 2013 11:10pm by Khornette
Quote:
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
Sort of... they should give those bosses a loot table.. ilvl 55 like WP and have bosses drop a nominal amount of phil tomes like the other late 40s dungeons.
That would give people a reason to keep running the instances at 50 so that DF groups don't dry up instantly and diminish the appeal of running them specifically for tomestones. AK can be a progression of that, but it's SUPER jarring to have these two dungeons not drop ANY gear at all. It does nothing to help prepare people to enter endgame as it is right now.
Also AK needs to be removed as the requirement to reach 2nd Lt. That requirement should be WP instead. It's ok for AK to be a farming spot for myth tomes (I'd like 2 more dungeons doing that at least), but being able to bring the GC weapon into AK would help a ton on people gearing sufficiently for the instance.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
CM/Prae are cutscene heavy, and supposed to be run only once for the story for immersion. It should not drop Tomes more than the first time, and should absolutely not dropping any equipment. It could give some VANITY reward to encourage people helping newbies completing story but it should end at that.
If you give more reward to CM/Prae, you will only encourage people to be more ****** about it and will only take in Relic+1 people for very very fast run.
If you give more reward to CM/Prae, you will only encourage people to be more ****** about it and will only take in Relic+1 people for very very fast run.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
Sort of... they should give those bosses a loot table.. ilvl 55 like WP and have bosses drop a nominal amount of phil tomes like the other late 40s dungeons.
That would give people a reason to keep running the instances at 50 so that DF groups don't dry up instantly and diminish the appeal of running them specifically for tomestones. AK can be a progression of that, but it's SUPER jarring to have these two dungeons not drop ANY gear at all. It does nothing to help prepare people to enter endgame as it is right now.
Also AK needs to be removed as the requirement to reach 2nd Lt. That requirement should be WP instead. It's ok for AK to be a farming spot for myth tomes (I'd like 2 more dungeons doing that at least), but being able to bring the GC weapon into AK would help a ton on people gearing sufficiently for the instance.
Love all of this! Great and thoughtful response. I think a lot of the pitfalls surrounding end game right now has a lot to do with the structuring of rewards systems. I would also love to see random drops from trash mobs as well, particularly tomes and accessories. Hopefully this would end the current obsession with speed runs and would spread the rewards out more evenly. A fresh player that ques up for a dungeon for the first time and lands him/herself in a speed run really has no time to take in, enjoy, or to properly learn the dungeon. This is a disservice to the community at large.
Quote:
If you give more reward to CM/Prae, you will only encourage people to be more ****** about it and will only take in Relic+1 people for very very fast run.
The problem with that is several years down the line. Vast majority of people are 50. CM/Prae require 8 man parties. No rewards, so everyone runs them one time. hi2u multi-hour queue times.
The trial fights (Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, and Cape Westwind) will start to have that same problem for precisely the same reason. Not NOW, but later.
Quote:
I would also love to see random drops from trash mobs as well, particularly tomes and accessories.
I'd like to see trash drops be a little more meaningful than the random garbage you get from them right now (which is the same stuff you'd have gotten from them out in the world). I'd like to see them drop a little bit more raw gil, and the random pink-quality item wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
Quote:
Hopefully this would end the current obsession with speed runs
That's impossible.
But the effect can be minimized by providing a number of venues for serious grinding. None of those venues should be story instances. The storyline instances should get you going. But the serious endgame grind-a-thon should take place in level 50 dungeons exclusively. Give enough rewards from the story dungeons to get people going, and then get them in to the endgame proper.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
If you give more reward to CM/Prae, you will only encourage people to be more ****** about it and will only take in Relic+1 people for very very fast run.
The problem with that is several years down the line. Vast majority of people are 50. CM/Prae require 8 man parties. No rewards, so everyone runs them one time. hi2u multi-hour queue times.
You think this is down the road? There are already shout in Legacy servers for Relic+1 only CM/Prae 19mins run.
Giving Vanity reward as an alternative, so that people have a purpose to do it but not obsess with it.
The low lvl dungeon are already multi-hour queue even if it drop items.
Edited, Oct 10th 2013 11:48pm by Khornette
Quote:
You think this is down the road? There are already shout in Legacy servers for Relic+1 only CM/Prae 19mins run.
Not being on a legacy server myself I didn't know that. That's a shame, though expected.
Quote:
Giving Vanity reward as an alternative, so that people have a purpose to do it but not obsess with it.
Maybe. The idea is to give people who've already done the dungeon once an incentive to do it more so that fresh 50s are able to complete the story. The reason I suggested ilvl 55 rewards for CM/Prae was because it would help ease fresh 50s into the endgame system. The issue right now is that the dungeons don't drop any gear, but are the best source of philosophy tomestones available. This makes them more attractive to endgame players for grinding than they probably should be.
Quote:
The low lvl dungeon are already multi-hour queue even if it drop items.
Is that also on legacy servers? It's probably inevitable everywhere if something in the reward structure doesn't change. Non-legacy servers don't currently have that problem. DPS queue for a low level dungeon is usually between 20 and 40 minutes. As long as people are leveling things, there will always be people running leveling dungeons. My concern regarding the trials was that there is absolutely no reason to ever do them more than once.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
OP, let's be clear on what you've actually experienced, that's not "experienced seasoned" players that you're seeing ream out others. They just sound like belligerent know-it-alls, if they were seasoned enough they would have just kept going and beaten Ultima without batting an eyelid.
The idea with CM and Prae is to farm tomes for your DL gear and relic. That's why there's no rewards.
I don't agree with this at all. 100 tomes is quite clearly meant to attract people for farming as it's the best Philo reward out of any dungeon. SE designated the reward, not the playerbase, they knew full well it would attract people to farm up tomes. I wish people would stop blaming the playerbase for what they perceive as problems, these are brought on by the design of the game.
And no, they should not drop the reward after the first run, that would leave a massive gap in people's ability to farm up tomes. Considering the prime-time wait for AK is out to 90 minutes on my server, it's a really, really bad idea. Even though WP is fun to run occasionally, I'm pretty much saturated with the drops, and tomes are easier to get elsewhere. It's simply not worth doing unless it's for S&G (which I do occasionally).
The GC weapon isn't needed for AK. More important that you have a few DL items, then one of the three weapons from iLvl 55 Market, Ifrit, or WP. For example, A HQ Longarm Composite Bow melded with materia will outclass Ifrits.
In my eyes the problems that need to be addressed at the moment are:
- Hideous wait times for AK
- Lack of decent alternate options for Mytho/Philo farming
Edited, Oct 11th 2013 5:57am by blowfin
The idea with CM and Prae is to farm tomes for your DL gear and relic. That's why there's no rewards.
Quote:
CM and Praetorium were NEVER EVER meant to be farmed for Tomes, they are simply story dungeons. This is what the player base has designated themselves after the Speed run method of AK was partially patched (it's still possible to run AK in 18mins, provide you are overgeared with iLvl 90). The grind dungeon for lvl 50 should be WP and AK.
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
Do you note the lack of item drop in CM/Prae? They NEVER were intended to be farmed. They should patch it so that 100 tomes reward is only given for first timer.
I don't agree with this at all. 100 tomes is quite clearly meant to attract people for farming as it's the best Philo reward out of any dungeon. SE designated the reward, not the playerbase, they knew full well it would attract people to farm up tomes. I wish people would stop blaming the playerbase for what they perceive as problems, these are brought on by the design of the game.
And no, they should not drop the reward after the first run, that would leave a massive gap in people's ability to farm up tomes. Considering the prime-time wait for AK is out to 90 minutes on my server, it's a really, really bad idea. Even though WP is fun to run occasionally, I'm pretty much saturated with the drops, and tomes are easier to get elsewhere. It's simply not worth doing unless it's for S&G (which I do occasionally).
Quote:
Also AK needs to be removed as the requirement to reach 2nd Lt. That requirement should be WP instead. It's ok for AK to be a farming spot for myth tomes (I'd like 2 more dungeons doing that at least), but being able to bring the GC weapon into AK would help a ton on people gearing sufficiently for the instance.
The GC weapon isn't needed for AK. More important that you have a few DL items, then one of the three weapons from iLvl 55 Market, Ifrit, or WP. For example, A HQ Longarm Composite Bow melded with materia will outclass Ifrits.
In my eyes the problems that need to be addressed at the moment are:
- Hideous wait times for AK
- Lack of decent alternate options for Mytho/Philo farming
Edited, Oct 11th 2013 5:57am by blowfin
Thumbs up OP 
I'm an older gamer also and have run into the same plight you have. I reached 50 and the thought of running into these negative folks just takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. Both my wife and I play together and even she is shying away from dungeon runs after seeing the cyber bullies on her own runs, and on my own. It's happened enough times to know these are not isolated incidents and it makes me sad to think of this as just a norm you should brush off.
I'm an older gamer also and have run into the same plight you have. I reached 50 and the thought of running into these negative folks just takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. Both my wife and I play together and even she is shying away from dungeon runs after seeing the cyber bullies on her own runs, and on my own. It's happened enough times to know these are not isolated incidents and it makes me sad to think of this as just a norm you should brush off.
While I don't condone ******* behavior, I do think its something you just have to learn to brush off. I don't know if any of you played Halo, but the online community for Halo is terrible, 10 year olds screaming at you calling you all sorts of names. Its just something you have to learn to deal with. Yeah there are ******** out there, just ignore them.
My friend I usually run dungeons with is on vacation for 10 days, I was online last night and was kind of a little hesitant to que for a dungeon, but then I was just like **** it, qued up for Darkhold, que poped, we cleared the dungeon with no wipes and no one really said anything, the tank was kind of meh, he never used flash, but whatever.
I know it sucks, but usually if someone is being a ****, I usually just tell them, "I hope this makes you feel good inside" and then just drop group. I had a guy harassing me in Wow one time, telling me how much I sucked at PvP and how terrible my gear was, and I was like "Does this really make you feel better in side, to harass someone one you don't even know?" He didn't say anything for awhile and then came back and apologized.
Point is, you cant let asshats dictate your game experience, just brush em off, report them if you want to, and move on, its just not worth getting that worked up about.
My friend I usually run dungeons with is on vacation for 10 days, I was online last night and was kind of a little hesitant to que for a dungeon, but then I was just like **** it, qued up for Darkhold, que poped, we cleared the dungeon with no wipes and no one really said anything, the tank was kind of meh, he never used flash, but whatever.
I know it sucks, but usually if someone is being a ****, I usually just tell them, "I hope this makes you feel good inside" and then just drop group. I had a guy harassing me in Wow one time, telling me how much I sucked at PvP and how terrible my gear was, and I was like "Does this really make you feel better in side, to harass someone one you don't even know?" He didn't say anything for awhile and then came back and apologized.
Point is, you cant let asshats dictate your game experience, just brush em off, report them if you want to, and move on, its just not worth getting that worked up about.
I've noticed the same thing, and its a bit upsetting. On several occasion I've found an awesome group that is fun, talkative, etc. Then, the group encounters a small problem with a boss, things don't go quite as planned, and one person makes a critical comment like "Whats wrong with you guys, why can't you guys get this boss fight?" or "Really?....", etc. From that point on, the group stops talking, dps output drops, people start making more mistakes, all because they start to think too much about it, and they aren't having fun anymore. I just don't understand why people feel the need to lash out at people for ******** up in a game like this. Sure I've been in a CM run before where everyone else was new, there were tons of mistakes, etc, but I kept my cool and tried my best to explain the mechanics to them, rather than telling them how amazed I am at their ineptitude.
Maybe I'm making it worse but I LOVE ******** with those people. I had one guy freaking out calling us scrubs and waving his epeen around so I started replying to his rant in Spanish. Then he started freaking out saying I needed to speak English because THIS IS AMERICA! F!@# YEAH! so I started replying with the few phrases I know in Hawaiian. When he freaked about that I started replying with random emoticons. He finally quit after that but the mental image of this guy just raging at his desk made me laugh. These a-holes are looking for conflict so they can be the badass they are not in RL so just confuse the s!@# out of them 
Here is the thing, when I hit 50 I did cm/pra with speed runners didn't bother me I just watched the cs while they blew through the bosses hell I didn't even fight in most boss fights but it was nice to relax and see all the cs, and now that I'm at endgame it's not like I missed out on those fights I'm doing them all the time. Also if there is no reward next month who will run it? I remember trying to get people to finish story missions in ffxi. Once people got them cleared it was like pulling teeth to get them to come back and help cuz there was no reward for doing it again and again. I thought I would quit the game before I ever beat divine might simply because no one wanted to run it again.
What's wrong with speed runs? I personally love them Que up run one or two before I head off to work. And I find most people aren't ****** and if they are there is a reason. My first ifrit run I died on every charge and stunned by mistake on my drg so yeah I wasted 7 other people's time, and before people say that this is a video game yes you can still wast peoples time. So they had a right to be very upset. Same with AK I went there before wp and still had my story gear didn't work out well people got mad.
Moral of this long story take a few mins to look up fights before hand or ask around and keep you gear up to date for the content you wanna tackle and you will eliminate 85% of online issues that are always talked about in the forums. Very few people request relic only and sometimes this biggest jerk is the guy that comes in unprepared without saying anything and undergeared and upset that people are not happy with his performance.
What's wrong with speed runs? I personally love them Que up run one or two before I head off to work. And I find most people aren't ****** and if they are there is a reason. My first ifrit run I died on every charge and stunned by mistake on my drg so yeah I wasted 7 other people's time, and before people say that this is a video game yes you can still wast peoples time. So they had a right to be very upset. Same with AK I went there before wp and still had my story gear didn't work out well people got mad.
Moral of this long story take a few mins to look up fights before hand or ask around and keep you gear up to date for the content you wanna tackle and you will eliminate 85% of online issues that are always talked about in the forums. Very few people request relic only and sometimes this biggest jerk is the guy that comes in unprepared without saying anything and undergeared and upset that people are not happy with his performance.
Thak goodness we can farm in Prae and AC also. I still feel like stabbing myself in the eye from the boredom of so few dungeons.
SE what are you thinking? Lazy!! You have Legacy, they are 50 and you didnt think to expand dungeons?
That being said. I haven't seen the intollerance to new players doing AC and Pra. There are cranky people, but, but, they are forced to do this repetitive stuff... I'm not excusing them, cause I haven't seen them too often. It does show up when they don't want people to watch the cutscenes, or wait for us ps3 players whose load issues had me missing fights because I didnt make it there in 15 seconds.
Now I let people know ahead of time. So far, people have been nice about it.
P.S. I'm a senior gamer (you prob. got that from my name..)
SE what are you thinking? Lazy!! You have Legacy, they are 50 and you didnt think to expand dungeons?
That being said. I haven't seen the intollerance to new players doing AC and Pra. There are cranky people, but, but, they are forced to do this repetitive stuff... I'm not excusing them, cause I haven't seen them too often. It does show up when they don't want people to watch the cutscenes, or wait for us ps3 players whose load issues had me missing fights because I didnt make it there in 15 seconds.
Now I let people know ahead of time. So far, people have been nice about it.
P.S. I'm a senior gamer (you prob. got that from my name..)
http://www.zam.com/Im/Image/242033
Name: Ghost Orchid - LEVEL 50 Bard, BLM, WHM, SMN Craft Level 7 Lucis, 6 4-star crafts: CUL, MIN, Wvr, Bsm, Gsm, Arm, Lth, Crp (Fishing and Alc at level 50)
World: Ultros
Name: Ghost Orchid - LEVEL 50 Bard, BLM, WHM, SMN Craft Level 7 Lucis, 6 4-star crafts: CUL, MIN, Wvr, Bsm, Gsm, Arm, Lth, Crp (Fishing and Alc at level 50)
World: Ultros
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Maybe I'm making it worse but I LOVE ******** with those people. I had one guy freaking out calling us scrubs and waving his epeen around so I started replying to his rant in Spanish. Then he started freaking out saying I needed to speak English because THIS IS AMERICA! F!@# YEAH! so I started replying with the few phrases I know in Hawaiian. When he freaked about that I started replying with random emoticons. He finally quit after that but the mental image of this guy just raging at his desk made me laugh. These a-holes are looking for conflict so they can be the badass they are not in RL so just confuse the s!@# out of them
This is win! I used to do stuff similar to this in Halo, its so fun sometimes just to listen to them get madder and madder.
Jeskradha wrote:
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Maybe I'm making it worse but I LOVE ******** with those people. I had one guy freaking out calling us scrubs and waving his epeen around so I started replying to his rant in Spanish. Then he started freaking out saying I needed to speak English because THIS IS AMERICA! F!@# YEAH! so I started replying with the few phrases I know in Hawaiian. When he freaked about that I started replying with random emoticons. He finally quit after that but the mental image of this guy just raging at his desk made me laugh. These a-holes are looking for conflict so they can be the badass they are not in RL so just confuse the s!@# out of them
This is win! I used to do stuff similar to this in Halo, its so fun sometimes just to listen to them get madder and madder.
I did too, it's where I learned this trick
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
I did too, it's where I learned this trick
LOL
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