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#1 Feb 08 2014 at 3:17 PM Rating: Default
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I saw something announcing/threatening to shift Leadership to AA. I am going to be more than a little irritated if they doc my AA again like they did with the Target window thingy. If it's a freebie, RETURN THE AA I USED TO BUY THE SLOTS. In this case, I have toons fully maxed out with leadership, they would take a massive hit with this move. Just move the abilities over, and assign the proper number of AA and diddle the balances, BUT DON'T PUNISH ME FOR HAVING DONE ALL THAT WORK, and eschewed all that experience to get them!

Maybe 'borrowing a jack' as the saying goes (because I think I MIGHT get a flat), but I am dreading this change, if they do it like they did the Target Window.

Opinions? Snailish, am I wrong in this thinking/dread??

Thanks
#2 Feb 08 2014 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're right that they mentioned something was changing with it soon.

I haven't seen the official actual details, but it could be out there (I try and avoid the Official boards).

One version (not confirmed to my knowledge) is that they aren't moving them at all... just making them a game feature every character has.
#3 Feb 09 2014 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
Just because they give something away doesn't mean it's a punishment to people who have used it for years. I bought a Samsung TV a few years ago for $1100, but Samsung is not punishing me because they lowered the price for you to buy it today, nor is this a massive hit for me. I got to use that TV for a few years, while others maybe still used a 19" square one.

This is basic UI functionality and should have been changed long ago. I hope they do something for people who have worked on it, but for people like you, that eschewed all that XP to get them, well you got the benefit of those LAAs over the last few years.

Edited, Feb 9th 2014 7:34am by amastropolo
#4 Feb 09 2014 at 10:47 AM Rating: Default
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Understood, and thank you for your input.

It's just that I don't feel being docked AA for something I already spent experience to earn is a very good thing. If they 'give' you something and then dock AA, they are not 'giving' it, you're paying for it. With the target window, I had toons that had all slots, got docked 40 aa when the thing became free, so essentially I was charged twice for it, once for getting the slots with AA, then once for getting them free. I am just concerned that this same twisted accountancy will occur with Leadership, where there is a heck of a lot more aa equivalency involved if you have well maxed out abilities already. If they are going to dock me for these AA (which I already paid for with experience) then give me the AA back so I can re-spend them on something else. Otherwise I am being charged twice for the same thing, once for the earning, and once for the moving.

Somehow, paying again for something I already earned is hairbrained, who came up with this idea for the target window? Are they planning to do it with Leadership as well?? Just flat move them to 'paid for AA' status and cancel the old skills that I have earned by sacrificing leveling. But please don't charge me for them a second time.

And I would also like to get back the AA from the target window double charge, as well, but as they say, "fat chance!"

More ideas/discussion are welcome, I am not being contentious, just concerned. Maybe I shouldn't rant until it happens, but by then, of course, it is too late. And if nobody else cares about this, then again, fat chance.

good hunting, all.

#5 Feb 09 2014 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone who was a group leader for a length of time could have maxed out LAA with hardly noticing the loss of regular XP or AAXP. I maxed mine out on more than one toon so long ago I can't even remember the last time I had a "ding LAA" experience.

I read they were just going to give EVERYONE the LAA abilities so I don't even see what you're concerned about. You want back the relatively trivial amount of experience that you had to direct TO LAA's to earn them? Heck, get in line. I want back all the time and "lost XP" I consumed earning Vex Thal access for all my toons way back when Luclin was fresh and new. Not to mention Anguish and other "locked" zones that got unlocked after a few more xpacs made them "past" content.

If you view the time you spend in this game as "work" for which you have to be compensated you're kind of missing the point of what a GAME is all about. You're supposed to be investing all this time for the reward known as...

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#6 Feb 09 2014 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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You're right of course, the 'lost' time getting keys and planes access, Howling stones, quibbling over this trivial experience does seem petty doesn't it. And they are autogranting AA anyway, so those of us that were proud of our multi-K AA balances will now no longer have anything to point to, it could all be autogrant. And you're right about fun, but I WAS having fun getting AA and experience, building a tough character, learning to overcome tougher and tougher content. 40 points doesn't seem like much, and now, of course, it isn't. And as for experience, once upon a time, it was tough to get, an AA or a yellow was a precious thing, 2% was a gold mine. Time to get my head out of my......memories and get with the new EQ. On the other hand, it wasn't so much the tremendous number of AA, as the principle of the thing, 'grinding' aa only to log on and find them gone. But again, you're right, a little swarming or a good group, 40 aa is trivial anymore. How is it a grind any more, really?

I did a few betas, and I remember what it is like to sit down with a 85+, 90+ toon and a passle of AA, then try to learn to play such a toon against awesum mobs. It was a tough switch for me, used to starting with nothing and hand carving a toon to take on all that it could, knowing intimately its limitations and advantages, what to fear, how to push the envelope. Now it will be a completely different challenge, trying to work with people in that condition, or trying to fit myself in, not completely understanding the consequences of a passle of new AA I have that I am not familiar with. On the other side, struggling for AA will be pointless waste of time, when they could be free. Very similar to the key-access thing, isn't it: the challenge was there, now it's nothing. But it's free! What's your problem? So's welfare.

My FUN WAS to climb the exp/AA ladder, to breathe free at a new level, take on badder and badder content. Now the badder and badder content has become more like a package tour. My fun was taking on the challenge to survive, to overcome the content, to be able to take pride in a badass toon, hand carved, ably played.

So I drop out of this thread. The only two comments have been of the nature, "Quit whining." So I will.

Thanks again for the input. But even with all this free stuff and the radical nature of the change of the game, I still somehow find it all irritating, like an excess or unfair charge on your credit card or tax bill. Another sign of the modern times, you don't have to like it, just live with it, it's small potatioes, so what if it's crooked or stupid? You can't do anything about it, so keep smiling, have fun. Don't adjust the reality, adjust your attitude.

LOL, good hunting, all.



Edited, Feb 9th 2014 9:26pm by Numantic
#7 Feb 18 2014 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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@ Amastropolo: when I got this freebie, I was docked 40 AA (I know, no big deal when you have several thousand, and no big deal compared to the flag removals, but...).

So like when they reduced the price on your TV, they come back and charge you MORE money for doing so. See the problem? We were docked for a freebie, how is this the same as the TV? Those that DID NOT have the full window, were not docked, those that DID have the full target window WERE docked.

But this time I really am dropping the thread, I promise! :) Really!



Edited, Feb 18th 2014 3:02pm by Numantic
#8 Feb 19 2014 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
- Leadership AAs have been converted to standard abilities. You no longer need to earn separate leadership experience to obtain these abilities. To learn more about the change, you can press 'L' in-game.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=33856


Edited, Feb 19th 2014 11:27am by Larth
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#9 Feb 19 2014 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Larth wrote:
- Leadership AAs have been converted to standard abilities. You no longer need to earn separate leadership experience to obtain these abilities. To learn more about the change, you can press 'L' in-game.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=33856


Edited, Feb 19th 2014 11:27am by Larth


Thanks Larth.

To those that never earned them on a character in the past... look into them, some are really useful.

For example, health of target's target is easymode for knowing if you have lost aggro as the kiter (when working as a rabbit in a kiting group).
#10 Feb 20 2014 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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As someone who mainly solos, seeing mob buffs is handy. I always wished I'd grouped more to get that one feature -- of real use, though, is not so much buffs a mob has, but seeing if my own spells are on the mob is priceless. Trying to manage my warder, keep an eye on one of 3 windows for resist checks/fizzles/interupts, and toggle through 3-4 mobs making sure they're all slowed has just become a hella lot easier.

I know EQ was hardcore, so, not knowing what a mob may or may not have on it -- detrimental or not -- was part of that charm, but man, I may have stayed longer and been away less with just this one little change.
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#11 Feb 20 2014 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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nekokirei wrote:
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As someone who mainly solos, seeing mob buffs is handy. I always wished I'd grouped more to get that one feature -- of real use, though, is not so much buffs a mob has, but seeing if my own spells are on the mob is priceless. Trying to manage my warder, keep an eye on one of 3 windows for resist checks/fizzles/interupts, and toggle through 3-4 mobs making sure they're all slowed has just become a hella lot easier.

I know EQ was hardcore, so, not knowing what a mob may or may not have on it -- detrimental or not -- was part of that charm, but man, I may have stayed longer and been away less with just this one little change.


well said sir.
I have to agree seeing your spells on mobs is priceless. I have since my return a little while ago been getting LAA and then i stopped when i got that feature because thats all i wanted :)
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#12 Feb 21 2014 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Logged in today to look at this.

1st off... love that they kept the default "L" key as a window that explains the changes. Well done on the devs part.

2nd... I really like the changes and don't bedrudge the wasted time on my most recent druid that half-finished these leadership abilities before this change.

3rd... all the stat/health ones got combined and turned into an early 50s AA. Pretty slick in my mind, as having them at lower levels would have been "a bit hasty" (sorry reading lord of the rings lately).

Health of target's target is there in the action window for everyone to make a hotkey of. Pretty much everything else is either part of the find window (if you don't want to type commands to trigger) or innate. I really like spell awareness being innate now.

Edited, Feb 21st 2014 5:45pm by snailish
#13 Feb 22 2014 at 2:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am totally in love with the AA grant (saved me about 200 years of play time, with all my alts) and the leadership thing on everybody is so slick, yes see the buffs is my favorite, too. Jobs well done dev people, really well done. I had alts that I knew would never go anywhere, cuz I just didn't have the life cycles to do with them what I wanted, and AA are so important for survival as we grow up. Now they can go places too, and I can learn how to deal with things in a variety of ways, each toon soloing having its own limitations.

Thanks you devs, very good job!
#14 Feb 22 2014 at 5:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Yup, yup. Gotta love making the game so much easier to play.

Next step: boost every player to 100, max AA's, Rank III's of all spells and a full complement of Tier 4 raid gear. Then think of the fun!

/sarcasm off

Not picking on anyone here, just expressing my opinion. Boy, the game sure has changed over the years. I'd say "evolved" but usually evolution is for the better and I don't see that here. But I guess the devs figure this is necessary for the survival of EQ and that IS a hard argument to oppose.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2014 6:31am by Sippin
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#15 Feb 23 2014 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sippin wrote:
Yup, yup. Gotta love making the game so much easier to play.

Next step: boost every player to 100, max AA's, Rank III's of all spells and a full complement of Tier 4 raid gear. Then think of the fun!

/sarcasm off

Not picking on anyone here, just expressing my opinion. Boy, the game sure has changed over the years. I'd say "evolved" but usually evolution is for the better and I don't see that here. But I guess the devs figure this is necessary for the survival of EQ and that IS a hard argument to oppose.

Edited, Feb 22nd 2014 6:31am by Sippin



While I value your opinion, I will never understand why people get so bent out of shape with this stuff. If it makes it so me, a more casual player, can enjoy the leadership AA's ( which were very helpful in Veeshan's, but that is another thread ) and the grant didn't suddenly make me UBER, but made it more fun for me because it is a little easier, how does that affect YOUR gameplay.

You can opt out of the AA's, heck you are level 100 ( which I am sure I will never make ) so this doesn't affect you in anyway that I can see, so why the venom? This doesn't make us all level 100 hunting all the area's you are in, just makes it so we might be able to enjoy parts of the game that will keep me coming back even though I will never play enough to get to 100...

I would think that if you do enjoy EQ, a change that keeps people playing ( and most of what I have heard about this is positive about the change ) should be good for the game.

I have played this game since the beginning, like you have, and even now it is as hard a game as you want it to be. My Cazic crew, without defiant and all, is the game it used to be...tough to level, mobs winning more than they should, etc...

But I also love my FV crew and being able to reach and fight things that are above my level, and I like the gear and weapons ( and AA's )...

Again, I appreciate your opinions, and you always add a different ( from mine ) and important perspective...but this one I really don't understand...but then again, I am sure that is not important...
#16 Feb 23 2014 at 7:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've said I agree this change is probably necessary to keep the game we all love alive and thriving... well, alive, at least.

The problem I see is that they're taking the shortcut of "leveling" the playing field rather than injecting more interesting content for lower level players.

I've spent time in recent months on the progression server and on the emu-server-that-shall-not-be-mentioned-here. In both "worlds" I started at level 1 in darn HARD versions of the game which required a lot of time and effort to advance. I ran across players who were already level 50 (the cap) or close to it. I never felt jealous of their accomplishment, or that the game devs should make it easier for me to "catch up" with them. The reason being I was willing to do the work to earn that level 50 AND there was enough interesting content for my toon at its lowly level, and enough other players to share that low-level playing experience with, that I didn't feel "deprived" that I wasn't being handed an easy path to the top.

I do agree it isn't all that fun to have to solo your way from 1-UP, particularly when on top of achieving as many as 100 levels you need thousands upon thousands of AA points to really develop your character. But that's because many players below the cap don't seem willing or able to enjoy the game as available to them at lower levels. And a major part of the reason for this is that the game doesn't encourage players to stick around "mid-level" to experience those challenges, so there are few people to group with, or raid with, sub-100.

Personally I understand this frustration fully. This is why elsewhere I proposed instances for lower-level toons which kick out rewards useable by high-level mains on the same account. Think how much fun it would be to be able to group in Crushbone, Nurga, Kurns Tower, Karnors, ,Kael Drakkel (lotta K zones in EQ, have you noticed??)Plane of Fear, Plane of Fire, Akheva Ruins, Wall of Slaughter, The Devestation, Valdeholm, Vergalid Mines, Field of Scale, Pellucid Grotto, Morell's Castle, etc., etc. Don't know some of these zones? That's probably because they're lower level zones and unless you were grouped back in the days when they were current content you never had the occasion to enjoy them in a group.

Handing out a free level 85 and/or 4000 AAs to players is not going to enhance their enjoyment of these zones unless your idea of fun is rampaging solo thru a zone full of greys and greens slaughtering everything in sight. That contributes nothing to the social grouping aspect of the game which USED to be its core source of enjoyment.

I'm sorry if I came across as "venomous". That's not my intention at all. And any ire I express is more toward the short-sighted quick-work approach the game devs are taking to boost the player base, at the cost of undermining the heart and soul of the game to the point where its extinction is probably accelerated. Why do you think the guys who designed the emu vehemently ban multi-boxing (to the point where you can get banned for a first offense) and preserved every component of the original game which made PLing and fast leveling difficult to impossible? Because they know that the heart and soul of the game as originally conceived involved grouping with other "real" players and making the always tedious process of leveling a toon and acquiring necessary gear and abilities a secondary "side effect" of playing the group game. Yeah, making it real easy for everyone to get their toons up "to the top" I guess enhances the chance players will be able to group, since evidently today it's considered that only level 100 players can only find a group. But then what's the point? It's like a Olympics where we skip all the difficult contests and just rush all the contestants to the award stands and hand everybody out a gold medal just for showing up!

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#17 Feb 23 2014 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sippin wrote:
I've said I agree this change is probably necessary to keep the game we all love alive and thriving... well, alive, at least.

The problem I see is that they're taking the shortcut of "leveling" the playing field rather than injecting more interesting content for lower level players.

I've spent time in recent months on the progression server and on the emu-server-that-shall-not-be-mentioned-here. In both "worlds" I started at level 1 in darn HARD versions of the game which required a lot of time and effort to advance. I ran across players who were already level 50 (the cap) or close to it. I never felt jealous of their accomplishment, or that the game devs should make it easier for me to "catch up" with them. The reason being I was willing to do the work to earn that level 50 AND there was enough interesting content for my toon at its lowly level, and enough other players to share that low-level playing experience with, that I didn't feel "deprived" that I wasn't being handed an easy path to the top.

I do agree it isn't all that fun to have to solo your way from 1-UP, particularly when on top of achieving as many as 100 levels you need thousands upon thousands of AA points to really develop your character. But that's because many players below the cap don't seem willing or able to enjoy the game as available to them at lower levels. And a major part of the reason for this is that the game doesn't encourage players to stick around "mid-level" to experience those challenges, so there are few people to group with, or raid with, sub-100.

Personally I understand this frustration fully. This is why elsewhere I proposed instances for lower-level toons which kick out rewards useable by high-level mains on the same account. Think how much fun it would be to be able to group in Crushbone, Nurga, Kurns Tower, Karnors, ,Kael Drakkel (lotta K zones in EQ, have you noticed??)Plane of Fear, Plane of Fire, Akheva Ruins, Wall of Slaughter, The Devestation, Valdeholm, Vergalid Mines, Field of Scale, Pellucid Grotto, Morell's Castle, etc., etc. Don't know some of these zones? That's probably because they're lower level zones and unless you were grouped back in the days when they were current content you never had the occasion to enjoy them in a group.

Handing out a free level 85 and/or 4000 AAs to players is not going to enhance their enjoyment of these zones unless your idea of fun is rampaging solo thru a zone full of greys and greens slaughtering everything in sight. That contributes nothing to the social grouping aspect of the game which USED to be its core source of enjoyment.

I'm sorry if I came across as "venomous". That's not my intention at all. And any ire I express is more toward the short-sighted quick-work approach the game devs are taking to boost the player base, at the cost of undermining the heart and soul of the game to the point where its extinction is probably accelerated. Why do you think the guys who designed the emu vehemently ban multi-boxing (to the point where you can get banned for a first offense) and preserved every component of the original game which made PLing and fast leveling difficult to impossible? Because they know that the heart and soul of the game as originally conceived involved grouping with other "real" players and making the always tedious process of leveling a toon and acquiring necessary gear and abilities a secondary "side effect" of playing the group game. Yeah, making it real easy for everyone to get their toons up "to the top" I guess enhances the chance players will be able to group, since evidently today it's considered that only level 100 players can only find a group. But then what's the point? It's like a Olympics where we skip all the difficult contests and just rush all the contestants to the award stands and hand everybody out a gold medal just for showing up!



This is why I am thankful that you post...I love the idea you have of changes that would make the mid-range game more interesting to play...I do know those zones, as I still play them today. I am one that for the most part plays waaay to many alts...because I love the old zones!!!!

I also love this change, the granting of AA's, not on all my characters, but on a few that I want to try to move up in level. I am not even sure if I can now ( that I granted all the AA's) turn off and earn all the rest, but that is the plan...

I am not sure that I agree that the heart and soul of this game is grouping...even back in 99 I solo'd alot...( course back then it was painfully slow ) except for a main wizard that I used in our guild Xanit. But endgame is all about grouping, and their really is not alot of grouping at lower levels ( except for the Mutants, when not on hiatus Smiley: glare Smiley: disappointed Smiley: oyvey ) and the changes have not encouraged this, but made it easier NOT to group, which is exactly your point ( I believe ) So I now understand your frustration waaay better...and you point of view totally makes sense to me.

I think that is one of the interesting things about this game that I have found, more so than any other MMO...that for as many people that play the game, there are that many WAYS to play the game.

I don't know where this leaves us, but I thank you for taking the time to reply and explain in even more depth your point of view, as my labeling your post venomous did not encourage this, and I apologize for that... Smiley: bowdown

#18 Feb 23 2014 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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Last 2 posts are too long to quote... but worth the read and I like them both. Smiley: nod

This discussion has turned into a "state of the game" kind of thread, which is alright.

I think the live server game needs to continue to evolve and have the content balance become much more top heavy, even though I haven't played above 80 ever (and love the low content). But... I do like the idea of low level content offering rewards useful to account. I see the challenge in making this work without Vox/Naggy style level-locking way more stuff I don't see how they can do it though that it is actually compelling. Considering there is so little low-level group play I'm not sure it really works on regular servers. However, revamping old content on live servers (in my view) to be high level would make the nostalgia incentive factor of playing on progression servers stronger, while making people like me that would rather fight in Najena a reason to level up (if Najena is now level 95-100).

I also think they need to keep rolling out special "niche" ruleset servers. They are willing to run Trakanon with almost no population, and Zek isn't much better. Vox is decent (probably ranks at worst among the lower pop oldest servers... but might even be stronger than 2-3 of them). Vulak is light, Fippy sounds like it still has a decent crowd. I mention this because if it came down to "tough choices" there is some server merging that could occur to free up servers. However, I think they have some hardware to spare (Vanguard server... cough). Up to me I would:

1. Move the current Progression servers from "preferred" status and allow nongold accounts access.

2. Launch a new progression server (with all the fixes they have done this would be very smooth) with the raid unlocks and timer for the next expac more like it was for Combine/Sleeper. So the server where the (or a) top guild sets the pace. AND launch a new progression server where there is no server leaderboard for raid kills and they have nothing to do with the pace. This 2nd server would be on a leisurely 6 months per expac timeline. These would be gold-sub only.

3. If I was Sony the Brave, I would do a sullon-zek style PVP progression server based on raid unlocks. Top guilds can kill each other to do the unlocks. I'd move all current zek names to this server pre-launch. (I think current Zek is going to need to merge out of red status sooner rather than later...). With all 3 of these prog rulesets launching at the same time the playerbase would be able to really dial-in how they want to play. You want fast unlocks? Don't play on the 6-month timed server. You don't want a guild full of SK's taking all the raids, go PVP and PK the villains!

4. If I was Sony the Experimental, I would relaunch a roleplaying server with the main rule that made the nodrop exceptions make sense: 1 character per account. Most of the other original quirks are long-gone from FV. On a new one, I wouldn't bother with the language or chat channel restrictions since the workarounds people did on FV weren't any more immersive than just leaving it as is. If it fails... merge it to FV no harm done.

5. Move Vox down to regular server status. Not allowing moves in is still alright, but it is time for a new regular server launch. Fresh start economy on a server with nothing done has appeal to many that don't want to do it progression style, and sitting in preferred status it is nice for it to be a fresher server (and Vox has been around a bit now).
#19 Feb 24 2014 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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yenwangweh wrote:
While I value your opinion, I will never understand why people get so bent out of shape with this stuff. If it makes it so me, a more casual player, can enjoy the leadership AA's ( which were very helpful in Veeshan's, but that is another thread ) and the grant didn't suddenly make me UBER, but made it more fun for me because it is a little easier, how does that affect YOUR gameplay.


I'm actually OK with the LA grants for two reasons:

1. Aside from the whole stats buff thing, they really are things that are hard to argue shouldn't just be part of the UI automatically.

2. Unlike AAs, which every single person could make a choice to gain in lieu of regular exp, not everyone even *could* gain LAs. As a casual player who doesn't box, there's no way for me to gain LAs without being part of a group, and when I am there's inevitably someone who already has some LAs (and they used them, so they were useful to the group), who would insist on being the leader. I would have gladly spent the exp on LAs if I didn't have to be the leader already in order to earn them.

Quote:
You can opt out of the AA's, heck you are level 100 ( which I am sure I will never make ) so this doesn't affect you in anyway that I can see, so why the venom? This doesn't make us all level 100 hunting all the area's you are in, just makes it so we might be able to enjoy parts of the game that will keep me coming back even though I will never play enough to get to 100...


Again though, opting out isn't really a viable alternative. It's like saying that people can opt out of their tax refund if they really care about helping pay down the debt (a crappy argument IMO). A good game needs to have consistent "rules" that apply to everyone, make sense, and make the game both enjoyable and challenging. While I don't think the AA grant is game killing, I do kinda agree that it's a gross simplification of the game. One of the things that made EQ fun and interesting was that there was more to it than just gaining levels. You also have skills and AAs which you can spend time on, and which have real effects on your character.

Why not just autogrant max skills for each level as well? The exact same argument for granting AAs applies, right? But when you do that, then the game ceases to be about player choices in terms of where they want to focus their character in terms of skills and AAs and becomes "every character of classX and levelY is identical". It's a valid concern IMO.
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#20 May 24 2015 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
I logged in after a couple years. I had Maxed out Leadership AA's.
I found a HotBar that I had my leadership commands on. Most were just numbers, BUT...
They still worked.
I have Health on Targets Target, and the assign Number to NPC's.
Is there a way to pull up those abilities in game? Or do I have to just keep my old unlabeled buttons?

Edited, May 24th 2015 12:45pm by Worthy
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#21 May 25 2015 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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65 posts
It should be off the EQ button.
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