The notion that evil is ipso facto unclean and unkempt really is an EQ1 / EQ2 misnomer, the visual representation of Akheva Ruins is actually one of order versus chaos not good versus evil. Order is sometimes more "evil" than disorder and chaos. SOE developers realized this error and redesigned EQ2's Freeport to visually represent order via authoritarian rule.
Most EQ cities have an organic feel to them, but one stands out as an authoritarian-based fascist city of concrete and glass. Look at the images below and guess which one!
The sterile concrete city of Brasilia: http://ds-lands.com/data_images/top_cityes/brasilia/brasilia-02.jpg
The desolate Pyongyang: https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5171/5538552678_d64a57656d_b.jpg
The unfinished (Leninist) Utopian city of Tripoli: http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/images/Tripoli_Hotel_Urban_Wasteland.jpg
Albert Spier's Berlin: http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/art-history/werckmeister/April_13_1999/Berlin.jpg
Answer: Sanctus Seru
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 9:36am by Trappin
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Yeah, my AR bit was off the good/evil path and more just about the aliens cleaning their damn house 
Neriak is a unique example in the EQ world with its gaudy neon lighting and brothel. And you have Sanctus Seru's austere and authoritarian look. But then PoK evil side looks like a bomb hit it and no one cares. And the Iksar apparently just said "F' it" after the fall of the Sebilisian Empire and are content to live in roofless hovels with collapsed beds because no one can pick up a hammer or a broom
Even in "old" Freeport, the North side was neat and orderly with the temple, bank and shops and the evil East side had a big friggin' mud pit in the center of it with ruined buildings because, you know, evil means you live like hobos.
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 11:38am by Jophiel
Neriak is a unique example in the EQ world with its gaudy neon lighting and brothel. And you have Sanctus Seru's austere and authoritarian look. But then PoK evil side looks like a bomb hit it and no one cares. And the Iksar apparently just said "F' it" after the fall of the Sebilisian Empire and are content to live in roofless hovels with collapsed beds because no one can pick up a hammer or a broom
Even in "old" Freeport, the North side was neat and orderly with the temple, bank and shops and the evil East side had a big friggin' mud pit in the center of it with ruined buildings because, you know, evil means you live like hobos.
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 11:38am by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I know what you mean and agree. By the looks of things in the 3rd gate, you'd think Neriak was a hotbed of teen prostitution with quests involving the smuggling of cocaine to Rivervale.
Trappin wrote:
I know what you mean and agree. By the looks of things in the 3rd gate, you'd think Neriak was a hotbed of teen prostitution with quests involving the smuggling of cocaine to Rivervale.
It's not?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Love the direction this thread has taken. Just had to say. Dirty = Evil always bothered me too. Faction also bothered me, and tried working out ways to do it in my head, but nothing seems to obviously work. I got some ideas, that might work, but still require huge amounts of data space on servers to keep track of. If they ever develop a good AI for NPCs that make them seem like real characters, even if roleplaying, then such a factioning system would be needed, as an NPC would have to remember particular characters that did them wrong or right.
And speaking of, in the old days when you could cast heals on guards, why would they attack you, if you were helping them out? And not appreciate the help.
EDIT: And Neriak the Rave spot?
Yther Ore.
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 5:18pm by Yther
And speaking of, in the old days when you could cast heals on guards, why would they attack you, if you were helping them out? And not appreciate the help.
EDIT: And Neriak the Rave spot?
Yther Ore.
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 5:18pm by Yther
Some twists and turns in this thread for sure! 
The one pvp server (sullon?) back in the day split the playerbase into evil-neutral-good based on deity. It was a division of convience rather than pure lore or logic, but a worthy attempt in my view of attempting to get players to cooperate along "faction" lines.
Aside from Veeshan, whom I suppose is neutral (and arguably is irrelevant as was only a deity choice for non-bards with the super-later addition of Drakkin... the only single deity race that has paladins and sk sharing faith as it were) there was some trends in original design?
1. Clerics, shaman had to have a deity. Civilized races got clerics, tribal got shaman (until froglok broke that rule)
2. Paladins, druids and rangers were good deity, Shadowknights and necromancers were evil
3. Wizards, Magicians and Enchanters had wide diety choice, as do bards (bards have unique ones)... agnostic being a useful option for questing, but the least daring choice as far as in-game consequences
4. agnostic was limited to warrior, monk, int casters and bard (before Vah Shir and Berserkers were added, agnositic berserkers being very odd in the deity slate of some races such as Troll that were very focused on Cazic or Inny)
5. rogues were evil, bristlebane playful (neutral) or "scouts" of a good god (wood elf)
6. pretty much every (or maybe all) warrior race can be a follower of Rallos Zek (except the later-added races) despite that not being an optional deity for most races for any other of their class options.
7. Iksar as the first added race were all Cazic Thule.
Basically, Deity had as much to do with class choice (if not more than race). If a bunch of halflings decide to go slumming with barbarians, we should expect: new facial tattoos on halflings, shaman, beastlord added as classes with The Tribunal/Bristlebane being the logical deity choices.
Racially Iksars are smart enough to be int casters but not wizards. Erudites of Paineel are lore-wise brilliant. No wizards. Cazic Thule is anti-wizard!
Other factions liked or disliked you based on your race, deity and class. Agnostic human monks are okay in the "evil" outpost in overthere because although monk is probably not a loved class there, agnostic and human are both neutral or at least tolerated (in the case of human).
Frogloks discovered hate, Inny became a deity choice and rogues, Sk and necro (and inny clerics) were opened up as class options. As others mentioned, halflings got additions without it even being explained. Gnome had bertox vs. brell split in Ak Anon in place before gaining other classes.
NPC races mish-mash most of the "class rules" as they have tribal races such as the Sarnaks with int casters (sarnak have a great class range actually). Orcs, kobolds, goblins in old world alone have a wide variety of classes that make them "smarter" than quite a few of the playable races... and aren't most of them followers of Rallos? (at least in historic lore?).
Would a Drakkin ranger train a dark elf of whatever deity to be a ranger? Lorewise... absolutely, but that's leaning on the weakest "muppet family we all get along" lore in the game. If Errolissi (spelling) or Bristlebane went nutty on Norrath you could give anyone "good" class or "goofy" class choices within lore easily.
High elves are the selfish elite of Norrath, that is a slippery slope to evil. Just add "Discord" as a deity choice and have Felwithe betray the rest of Norrath... so many ways to forward storyline and give us more things to play.
The one pvp server (sullon?) back in the day split the playerbase into evil-neutral-good based on deity. It was a division of convience rather than pure lore or logic, but a worthy attempt in my view of attempting to get players to cooperate along "faction" lines.
Aside from Veeshan, whom I suppose is neutral (and arguably is irrelevant as was only a deity choice for non-bards with the super-later addition of Drakkin... the only single deity race that has paladins and sk sharing faith as it were) there was some trends in original design?
1. Clerics, shaman had to have a deity. Civilized races got clerics, tribal got shaman (until froglok broke that rule)
2. Paladins, druids and rangers were good deity, Shadowknights and necromancers were evil
3. Wizards, Magicians and Enchanters had wide diety choice, as do bards (bards have unique ones)... agnostic being a useful option for questing, but the least daring choice as far as in-game consequences
4. agnostic was limited to warrior, monk, int casters and bard (before Vah Shir and Berserkers were added, agnositic berserkers being very odd in the deity slate of some races such as Troll that were very focused on Cazic or Inny)
5. rogues were evil, bristlebane playful (neutral) or "scouts" of a good god (wood elf)
6. pretty much every (or maybe all) warrior race can be a follower of Rallos Zek (except the later-added races) despite that not being an optional deity for most races for any other of their class options.
7. Iksar as the first added race were all Cazic Thule.
Basically, Deity had as much to do with class choice (if not more than race). If a bunch of halflings decide to go slumming with barbarians, we should expect: new facial tattoos on halflings, shaman, beastlord added as classes with The Tribunal/Bristlebane being the logical deity choices.
Racially Iksars are smart enough to be int casters but not wizards. Erudites of Paineel are lore-wise brilliant. No wizards. Cazic Thule is anti-wizard!
Other factions liked or disliked you based on your race, deity and class. Agnostic human monks are okay in the "evil" outpost in overthere because although monk is probably not a loved class there, agnostic and human are both neutral or at least tolerated (in the case of human).
Frogloks discovered hate, Inny became a deity choice and rogues, Sk and necro (and inny clerics) were opened up as class options. As others mentioned, halflings got additions without it even being explained. Gnome had bertox vs. brell split in Ak Anon in place before gaining other classes.
NPC races mish-mash most of the "class rules" as they have tribal races such as the Sarnaks with int casters (sarnak have a great class range actually). Orcs, kobolds, goblins in old world alone have a wide variety of classes that make them "smarter" than quite a few of the playable races... and aren't most of them followers of Rallos? (at least in historic lore?).
Would a Drakkin ranger train a dark elf of whatever deity to be a ranger? Lorewise... absolutely, but that's leaning on the weakest "muppet family we all get along" lore in the game. If Errolissi (spelling) or Bristlebane went nutty on Norrath you could give anyone "good" class or "goofy" class choices within lore easily.
High elves are the selfish elite of Norrath, that is a slippery slope to evil. Just add "Discord" as a deity choice and have Felwithe betray the rest of Norrath... so many ways to forward storyline and give us more things to play.
Jophiel wrote:
Frogloks are just weird. Their patron deity is Mithannial Marr (sp? too lazy to check) who is typically considered a "cultured" deity. And they have clerics which is another mark of the cultured races (humans, high/dark elves, etc). But their living quarters have been Grobb and now some shanty town tent city and they have shamans which are (usually) the mark of the less cultured races. I suppose Vah Shir have shamans and BSTs as well and they're supposedly cultured but then the Vah Shir have some of the stupidest racial lore in the game.
Speaking of, can I just complain about a common trope in EQ? Evil = Dirty? Why on earth is the evil side of PoK filled with broken roads and weeds and stuff? They can't throw down a few paving stones? I could see it if it was just ogres and trolls (ignoring ogres with 300+ INT scores these days) but shouldn't Tier'Dal want their side looking swanky? The Iksar built the sprawling Sebilisan empire with fortresses, libraries, cities and massive statues & aqueducts but now they can't be bothered to sweep the crap off the streets of Cabilis and repair a few buildings? Not necessarily "evil" but I thought the same thing in Akheva Ruins the other night -- these alien dudes live there and are intelligent enough to be casters and make magical swords & hammers; couldn't they get the chunks of marble out of the middle of the hallway? What else do they have to do all day?
Speaking of, can I just complain about a common trope in EQ? Evil = Dirty? Why on earth is the evil side of PoK filled with broken roads and weeds and stuff? They can't throw down a few paving stones? I could see it if it was just ogres and trolls (ignoring ogres with 300+ INT scores these days) but shouldn't Tier'Dal want their side looking swanky? The Iksar built the sprawling Sebilisan empire with fortresses, libraries, cities and massive statues & aqueducts but now they can't be bothered to sweep the crap off the streets of Cabilis and repair a few buildings? Not necessarily "evil" but I thought the same thing in Akheva Ruins the other night -- these alien dudes live there and are intelligent enough to be casters and make magical swords & hammers; couldn't they get the chunks of marble out of the middle of the hallway? What else do they have to do all day?
This post made my day! ROFL. Funny stuff. Maybe iksar don't SEE the "crap" on the streets of Cabilis as crap? They are lizard-men, after all. One sentient being's crap may well be another sentient being's flowerpot. And some people just don't SEE the mess. How many times have I told my son to clear his room of empty iced coffee paper cups and empty potato chip bags and he claims he didn't see them. He gets home from school and walks right past 4 trash barrels that have been collected by our town and are lying half in the street empty. Why doesn't he put them away? "I never saw them," so he says.
Yeah, sure I believe him too! LOL. Maybe iksars are just friggin' LAZY! Or they expect their parents to sweep the crud off the roads of Cabilis...
Edited, Nov 12th 2013 8:31pm by Sippin
Sippin 115 DRU **** Firiona Vie ****Agnarr
FV: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
Agnarr: 65 DRU ENC SHD MAG CLE ROG WIZ BRD WAR
FV: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
Agnarr: 65 DRU ENC SHD MAG CLE ROG WIZ BRD WAR
Snailish's post reminded me that I forget that Drakkin even exist. I know nothing of their lore and care even less.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Froglok, Vah Shir and Drakkin are all indeed proof that the devs have progressively lost some of their original spirit of inspiration when it came to adding new races to EQ.
That's why I'd much prefer them making certain existing races playable for players: goblins, sarnaks and giants come to mind right off the bat. Maybe brownies too.
How about skeletons? Wouldn't it be cool to be uttering that maniacal laugh al the time during long grind sessions: even better if all six players were skeletons!
In all seriousness, goblins have their own cities, with bankers and vendors, so it's a no-brainer to make that race playable. At the same time they could exterminate frogloks just to make room for goblins. Who wouldn't rather play a goblin wizard than a froglok wizard? Hmmmm???
That's why I'd much prefer them making certain existing races playable for players: goblins, sarnaks and giants come to mind right off the bat. Maybe brownies too.
How about skeletons? Wouldn't it be cool to be uttering that maniacal laugh al the time during long grind sessions: even better if all six players were skeletons!
In all seriousness, goblins have their own cities, with bankers and vendors, so it's a no-brainer to make that race playable. At the same time they could exterminate frogloks just to make room for goblins. Who wouldn't rather play a goblin wizard than a froglok wizard? Hmmmm???
Sippin 115 DRU **** Firiona Vie ****Agnarr
FV: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
Agnarr: 65 DRU ENC SHD MAG CLE ROG WIZ BRD WAR
FV: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
Agnarr: 65 DRU ENC SHD MAG CLE ROG WIZ BRD WAR
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