I play a warrior, named aron.. some of you may know me.. and for everyones benefit.. as well as mine, i just want to clear a few things up because im sick of people yelling at other people because they dont know how things work, and people not understanding how thier own abilties work.. first of all.. Taunt... im sick of you DPS and healer classes yelling at me.. "GET THIS THING OFF ME!!! DO YOU KNOW HOW TO TAUNT!!! what you need to understand is that warriors only have a few buttons to press.. mostly autoattack.. then we can either slam, bash, or kick... cuz they are on the same timer, i slam or bash for the best aggro.. the only other abililty we have is taunt (we get provoke to which is strictlty an aggro spell, we hit that as much as we can).. Now people are confused about what taunt does. It is like a spell. You press taunt and it either works or fails..even when it works.. all it does is puts the tank on the top of the mobs hate list by 1 point. So it is best if you taunt first, then provoke and bash right after so you can get some breathing room. If you want the warrior to save you.. sit still and turn autoattack off please. Do not run around screaming.. that just makes it harder, unless you are lucky enough to have someone smart enough to root it.....
The only other thing i really want to get across at this time concerns monks... i havent found a useful monk on our server yet, now this is me personally.. im not in the biggest guild and havent played with many monks.. but alot of you guys dont understand how feign death works.... once again, feign death works like a spell... so when you are trying to single pull a from a three spawn or whatever... you have to keep trying until you shake all but one.. and for christs sake.. wiggle around a little if you have to.. if you are going to bring back 5 mobs everytime you pull.. just let me pull..
thats all.. comments please... any further complaints encouraged.. get it off your chest
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No, you have good points. THough I would add that casters seem (these days) not to know aggro management. By that I mean the Wiz that starts to nuke at the beginning of the fight. As a (mostly) tank type player I don't want you to do that... let me melt the beastie down till you can hit him with one or two nukes and it is dead. You don't have to deplete your mana pool to impress me... you don't have to be involved in the fight from start to finish... not your job mate... that is the tank's job...
Same thing with the druid/shaman whose job is primarily buffing and healing... yes, it is nice you can nuke as well ... and yes it is boring to be doing little fighting ... but, in many cases wasting mana on nukes is not what you should be doing... If you are a caster class and you pull the aggro off of the melee (warrior, monk, etc.) while they are fighting the mob, then you are doing something wrong.
The exception of course is that rare time (hopefully) when, just as it is the job of the tank to die maybe so that the casters can run for it, well, there are those times when the healer has to heal to the point that he gets knocked into the dirt so the rest of the party can live... but those, you should note, should be the exception and not the rule.
Same thing with the druid/shaman whose job is primarily buffing and healing... yes, it is nice you can nuke as well ... and yes it is boring to be doing little fighting ... but, in many cases wasting mana on nukes is not what you should be doing... If you are a caster class and you pull the aggro off of the melee (warrior, monk, etc.) while they are fighting the mob, then you are doing something wrong.
The exception of course is that rare time (hopefully) when, just as it is the job of the tank to die maybe so that the casters can run for it, well, there are those times when the healer has to heal to the point that he gets knocked into the dirt so the rest of the party can live... but those, you should note, should be the exception and not the rule.
4 posts
i hate that too.. and when rangers try to taunt off you.. ughhh
Scholar
16 posts
Morning :)
Druid here and was told many many levels ago (By a warrior after I drew aggroe) that I should cast snare at 15%...cast dots at 80% or therein........cast nukes *For the heck of it) at about 10%..........Cast buffs before the pull.........and assist the cleric with heals as needed.
I go as far as to ask the puller to hold for a second if I need to rebuff the group which is rare since shammys and clerics have the better buffs for my level.
Do I draw aggroe now? Oh yeah, once in a great while but I stand there and hope aggroe is taken away.....Have only died once from an aggroe and it was my fault..snared far too early, doh. Had just gotton two AA's completed-one dot-other snare and hit the wrong button....shakes head at self.
I think the problem these days is so many solo and have no concept on how to group. I know I can solo for days then group and have to rethink how I need to do things for the benefit of the group.
Incorporating mercenaries (Which I do enjoy but) have made it easy for every class to solo hence not knowing what their *job* is when grouping.
Suggestion might be:
Before pulling explain what you want from each person. If they don't do it. let them die....I expect to die if I don't hold my own...My fault, My death.
I'll ask the tank will it be their call or mine when and if an evac is needed....Do they wish me to use snare (Some tanks do not like the spell snare), etc.
Am I a great/smart druid?.......by far no....Still alot to learn even at my level of 81.
Druid of the 81st season and still learning...:)
Druid here and was told many many levels ago (By a warrior after I drew aggroe) that I should cast snare at 15%...cast dots at 80% or therein........cast nukes *For the heck of it) at about 10%..........Cast buffs before the pull.........and assist the cleric with heals as needed.
I go as far as to ask the puller to hold for a second if I need to rebuff the group which is rare since shammys and clerics have the better buffs for my level.
Do I draw aggroe now? Oh yeah, once in a great while but I stand there and hope aggroe is taken away.....Have only died once from an aggroe and it was my fault..snared far too early, doh. Had just gotton two AA's completed-one dot-other snare and hit the wrong button....shakes head at self.
I think the problem these days is so many solo and have no concept on how to group. I know I can solo for days then group and have to rethink how I need to do things for the benefit of the group.
Incorporating mercenaries (Which I do enjoy but) have made it easy for every class to solo hence not knowing what their *job* is when grouping.
Suggestion might be:
Before pulling explain what you want from each person. If they don't do it. let them die....I expect to die if I don't hold my own...My fault, My death.
I'll ask the tank will it be their call or mine when and if an evac is needed....Do they wish me to use snare (Some tanks do not like the spell snare), etc.
Am I a great/smart druid?.......by far no....Still alot to learn even at my level of 81.
Druid of the 81st season and still learning...:)
Scholar
35 posts
Yep. Sounds like caster(s) could practice their cast timing. CCH.
Edited, May 10th 2011 10:29am by fluticazone
Edited, May 10th 2011 10:29am by fluticazone
Scholar
35 posts
Quote:
Do they wish me to use snare (Some tanks do not like the spell snare)
Do what now?
Scholar
16 posts
Morning..:)
What i meant was that is one of the questions I will ask when invited to a new group.....I have found some like me casting snare, others don't want me casting it.
Have never asked why they dont. Would think snare (In most cases) would be welcomed since once snared and the mob gets to about 18% it turns its back and does not continue to attack. shrug
Hope that made sense-Just now having my first cup of coffee..:)
Do what now?
What i meant was that is one of the questions I will ask when invited to a new group.....I have found some like me casting snare, others don't want me casting it.
Have never asked why they dont. Would think snare (In most cases) would be welcomed since once snared and the mob gets to about 18% it turns its back and does not continue to attack. shrug
Hope that made sense-Just now having my first cup of coffee..:)
MegidoFlare wrote:
Quote:
Do they wish me to use snare (Some tanks do not like the spell snare)
Do what now?
Scholar
35 posts
Morning.
Not that you know, as you said, but I'd like to hear why anyone would not want a mob snared. I can't think of a single circumstance where that would be a bad thing unless there's some new mechanic I'm unaware of.
That's one of the more peculiar things I've heard.
Now there's obviously good reason not to want a mob -rooted- since that makes a mob ignore its hate table and attack whomever's closest, but snares? There's no downside to a snared mob. At least none I can think of.
Heck, the next time a tank says "don't snare", ask them why and tell us what they said, because I for one am curious.
Quote:
Have never asked why they dont.
Not that you know, as you said, but I'd like to hear why anyone would not want a mob snared. I can't think of a single circumstance where that would be a bad thing unless there's some new mechanic I'm unaware of.
That's one of the more peculiar things I've heard.
Now there's obviously good reason not to want a mob -rooted- since that makes a mob ignore its hate table and attack whomever's closest, but snares? There's no downside to a snared mob. At least none I can think of.
Heck, the next time a tank says "don't snare", ask them why and tell us what they said, because I for one am curious.
12 posts
Yeah.. I'm not sure why aanyone wouldn't want the mob snared. I have never heard that before. Runners can wipe a group in no time flat! And some of those runners take off pretty dang fast!
If you run across that again, ask why and report back! I am also curious! lol
If you run across that again, ask why and report back! I am also curious! lol
Scholar
16 posts
if and when Eq ever comes back I will be asking.....never have before cause I figured it was a preference etc to use or not.
I do remeber being in a dungeon and was told not to snare anymore after I had snared a mob. Was too busy to ask why and just never thought about when on a downtime.
The only reason I can think of is by snaring the aggroe is on the snarer but if one is far enough away (And me being chicken i am as far away as possible) and waits til the mob is at about 20% or so that thinking doesn't make sense.
No clue but will ask if I group with one that says not to snare....:)
I do remeber being in a dungeon and was told not to snare anymore after I had snared a mob. Was too busy to ask why and just never thought about when on a downtime.
The only reason I can think of is by snaring the aggroe is on the snarer but if one is far enough away (And me being chicken i am as far away as possible) and waits til the mob is at about 20% or so that thinking doesn't make sense.
No clue but will ask if I group with one that says not to snare....:)
Put me on the list. I want to hear about this tank who's telling you not to snare.
There are a couple of reasons why a tank wouldn't want snares that are acceptable in my view. The primary one is the mob doesn't run. Secondly, the tank may be using a snare proc, clicky, or other effect that is being overwritten, and thus adding aggro that is not needed. On my ranger, I overcome this by having most snare effects audio triggered, and now-a-days keeping the Target's window expanded to see all buffs / debuffs. Finally, along the same lines as the second reason, Warriors get an AA line that snares and keeps the mob attacking them (See Call of Challenge). Note that Call doesn't put the War at the top of the aggro list, so if someone else was on top, they will prob stay on top, and the mob will continue to attack their target if the hate generated by the Call doesn't put the War back on top.
Personally, I'd rather have them snared and turning away, but depends on the group. Some mobs enrage, and some melee don't pay attention to it, so the War AA is a better fit for the group. However, ideally, the snare would be better, and generally enraging mobs don't run to start with. Also, 50% or less health is generally fine to start snaring (in case of a resist / fizzle / etc.) for aggro, or as pulling aggro for short pulls at 100% (for non-damaging snares, Nec/SK lines as long as low damage so mob doesn't start summoning before it's to the tank), as most tanks can grab a mob's attention even snared and slowed with taunt and/or an aggro disc.
I can't think of any other really good and/or general reasons, but I'm sure there are some. Auto-pulls maybe, but I like 15-min snares on mobs used for that as it slows them down and keeps the trains steady, but personally, I don't think that's a good tactic to use in a group, unless the group is just there for xp and not assisting at all, as it is generally a risky tactic and a good puller can maintain a similar but more controlled rate of pulls.
Yther Ore.
Personally, I'd rather have them snared and turning away, but depends on the group. Some mobs enrage, and some melee don't pay attention to it, so the War AA is a better fit for the group. However, ideally, the snare would be better, and generally enraging mobs don't run to start with. Also, 50% or less health is generally fine to start snaring (in case of a resist / fizzle / etc.) for aggro, or as pulling aggro for short pulls at 100% (for non-damaging snares, Nec/SK lines as long as low damage so mob doesn't start summoning before it's to the tank), as most tanks can grab a mob's attention even snared and slowed with taunt and/or an aggro disc.
I can't think of any other really good and/or general reasons, but I'm sure there are some. Auto-pulls maybe, but I like 15-min snares on mobs used for that as it slows them down and keeps the trains steady, but personally, I don't think that's a good tactic to use in a group, unless the group is just there for xp and not assisting at all, as it is generally a risky tactic and a good puller can maintain a similar but more controlled rate of pulls.
Yther Ore.
Yther wrote:
Some mobs enrage, and some melee don't pay attention to it, so the War AA is a better fit for the group.
Yther Ore.
Yther Ore.
Some good points. I think in one of the recent updates, they actually removed Enrage from the game. Rampage is still there, but I haven't seen a mob enrage at 10% health for a month or two.
SoloistMonk wrote:
Same thing with the druid/shaman whose job is primarily buffing and healing... yes, it is nice you can nuke as well ... and yes it is boring to be doing little fighting ... but, in many cases wasting mana on nukes is not what you should be doing... If you are a caster class and you pull the aggro off of the melee (warrior, monk, etc.) while they are fighting the mob, then you are doing something wrong.
The exception of course is that rare time (hopefully) when, just as it is the job of the tank to die maybe so that the casters can run for it, well, there are those times when the healer has to heal to the point that he gets knocked into the dirt so the rest of the party can live... but those, you should note, should be the exception and not the rule.
The exception of course is that rare time (hopefully) when, just as it is the job of the tank to die maybe so that the casters can run for it, well, there are those times when the healer has to heal to the point that he gets knocked into the dirt so the rest of the party can live... but those, you should note, should be the exception and not the rule.
you're wasting the shaman if you're thinking the only good thing they do is buff/heal.. they have these things called dots, and if used well, wont take too much aggro off the tank, while helping to kill the mob..
heal aggro is a severe pain and very hard to avoid at times.. i can count how many times i've ended up getting it because of an inexperienced or lower leveled tank.(i've learned painfully to keep gate up in a PUG)
the only time i use nukes or root, is to deal with aggro when i am an off-tank (yes some shammies do this, especially when a better tank isn't avail), i will draw off one, dot, dot, and possibly dot again,. then root/ignore.. or when i get heal aggro and the tank is busy with something else and i am dealing with someone else's idiocy. aka someone who doesn't wait for the tank to get aggro first, crappy puller (i usually leave those groups fast) etc...
it really depends on the group i am in and i will ask, who is what etc before the first mob is pulled.
7 posts
You would be surprised to find it's not just warriors that over-agro from non-tanks becomes a problem from. In a good group that knows how to control their agro, I can stretch my mana out for a hours. Majority of the time I'm having to use not only agro spells but also nukes and heals to maintain agro, even worse are adds which tend to take huge chunks off my mana bar.
I think part of the problem however are tanks that don't understand how to hold agro properly. It's a catch-22, if your group is over-agroing then you wont be able to gauge what's enough agro for a good group, if the tank is not agroing well enough than you wont be able to gauge your spell usage to avoid taking agro with a good tank. Best to just send tells to those that are over-agroing, if they give you lip over it let them die a few times to get the point across. I tend to lean more toward tanks aren't even trying when I hear "thank god we got a tank that can hold agro" and then later get questioned on why I'm spending so much mana when other knights they've grouped with barely spend any (clear sign that they are slacking hardcore). Even worse is hearing I use more endurance than warriors they group with, endurance expenditure is new to me, never had anything before that spent enough for me to be concerned about it, so I tend to underspend or overspend a lot trying to get a good gauge on how to match the expenditure against my mana expenditure.
I think part of the problem however are tanks that don't understand how to hold agro properly. It's a catch-22, if your group is over-agroing then you wont be able to gauge what's enough agro for a good group, if the tank is not agroing well enough than you wont be able to gauge your spell usage to avoid taking agro with a good tank. Best to just send tells to those that are over-agroing, if they give you lip over it let them die a few times to get the point across. I tend to lean more toward tanks aren't even trying when I hear "thank god we got a tank that can hold agro" and then later get questioned on why I'm spending so much mana when other knights they've grouped with barely spend any (clear sign that they are slacking hardcore). Even worse is hearing I use more endurance than warriors they group with, endurance expenditure is new to me, never had anything before that spent enough for me to be concerned about it, so I tend to underspend or overspend a lot trying to get a good gauge on how to match the expenditure against my mana expenditure.
I did not mean to disparage the shaman DoTs... the word primarily was in the sentence... and if the shaman is the primary healer, to be honest I would much rather he preserve his/her mana for heals than DoTs ... but, yes, the shaman can add DoTs which can be useful... but now we have drifted into mana management...
the real problem is plain and simple.. lack of experience with grouping.. a lot hav e none outside of an occasional raid, especially on live servers.. i deliberatel;y joined fippy for grouping experience, and boy is it a learning one with some tanks/non-tanks. a lot really don't know what to do and do go in with both guns blazing, on the TLP it's clear over and over again a lot haven't a clue how to group.
Rhiyannon wrote:
the real problem is plain and simple.. lack of experience with grouping.. a lot hav e none outside of an occasional raid, especially on live servers.. i deliberatel;y joined fippy for grouping experience, and boy is it a learning one with some tanks/non-tanks. a lot really don't know what to do and do go in with both guns blazing, on the TLP it's clear over and over again a lot haven't a clue how to group.
Even I have this problem with some of my alts... in large part because in the current game environment getting groups sub-70 or so is nearly impossible... getting good groups is, quite literally, impossible... so, for those alts I am raising I am using Mercs and for the most part there is little to no point in buffing or need for healing... so, you don't really learn the skills to make it work in a group...
For me the only bright spot is I have found a couple that both play and they are good to group with and I have been grouping with them and working to learn the basics of the various classes... one other problem is that the alts are now at the level where vendor sold spells are a rarity. So, to fill out my spell book I need to either start questing to the max... hunting for the spell drops or getting my mage into research (real soon now:))
So, I can be as guilty as everyone else ... :)
The biggest thing I"ve seen in years of playing, is to adapt, learn, and survive.
Tanks need to adjust agro to match group, yet group needs to adjust dps so tank/healer doesn't run out of mana/endurance. Each of the 3 tank classes have spells/discs/aa's they can use to increase agro, but spamming them results in an empty mana/end bar and group downtime (unless you're very well geared/AA'd). That said, a good tank holds agro unless some folks just don't listen.
Then you have the "I can tank these as good as you" melee dps. Personally, I give up snagging agro back if the idiots are trying to agro the mob, and let the healer deal with it. Normally, the healer tells them to stop spamming taunt or clicking dps disc on incoming mob(let tank lock agro). I find it hilarious when the healer tells me to let them tank if they pull agro, then doesn't heal, and the idjit goes down HARD to a trash mob.
Newb tells group "Why didn't you heal me?"
Healer tells the group "Why did you pull agro from tank after I've told you not to repeatedly?"
Silence...
Newb drops group and summons corpse.
Healer says OOC "Any dps LFG?"
Edited, May 17th 2011 3:10am by sarslash
Edited, May 17th 2011 3:11am by sarslash
Tanks need to adjust agro to match group, yet group needs to adjust dps so tank/healer doesn't run out of mana/endurance. Each of the 3 tank classes have spells/discs/aa's they can use to increase agro, but spamming them results in an empty mana/end bar and group downtime (unless you're very well geared/AA'd). That said, a good tank holds agro unless some folks just don't listen.
Then you have the "I can tank these as good as you" melee dps. Personally, I give up snagging agro back if the idiots are trying to agro the mob, and let the healer deal with it. Normally, the healer tells them to stop spamming taunt or clicking dps disc on incoming mob(let tank lock agro). I find it hilarious when the healer tells me to let them tank if they pull agro, then doesn't heal, and the idjit goes down HARD to a trash mob.
Newb tells group "Why didn't you heal me?"
Healer tells the group "Why did you pull agro from tank after I've told you not to repeatedly?"
Silence...
Newb drops group and summons corpse.
Healer says OOC "Any dps LFG?"
Edited, May 17th 2011 3:10am by sarslash
Edited, May 17th 2011 3:11am by sarslash
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