Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Class Lines: Divided and BlurredFollow

#1 Feb 09 2009 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
**
317 posts
Yther wrote:
Quote:
Plate = Cleric Bard Paladin Shadowknight Warrior
Chain = Rogue Ranger Berserker Shaman
Leather = Druid Monk Beastlord
Silk = Enchanter Magician Necromancer Wizard


OK, so we all know this is what the classes can wear, as far as their armor goes.

BUT

Just because a cleric or bard wears plate, does that make them a tank?
Just because a Beastlord and Ranger can cast spells does that make them casters?

What do you consider the "True Class Roles"?

I believe the definition of a class's role is much more than just "they use discs and spells" or "they wear plate".

Take Hybrids for example:

When the game first started, a hybrid was seen as *generally* a 50/50 warrior/caster. We had:
Paladin = warrior/cleric
Shadowknight = warrior/necro
Ranger = warrior/druid
Bard = warrior/chanter (again, generally speaking)
Beastlord = warrior/shaman (introduced in Luclin)

This line of thinking was reinforced by the fact that these Hybrid's spell lines were taken DIRECTLY from their parent caster class (the bard is ALWAYS an exception to this), and it usually took around 15+ more levels for a hybrid class to be able to use the same spell the parent class could (Spirit of Wolf was originally unusable by Rangers until level 39). This of course, was acceptable, because we hadn't yet had the time to develop each class yet.

Fast forward to today, and the definition of a "hybrid" is more broad. And the ratio is more like 75/25. It's true all of these classes are still hybrids. But aren't they so much more than just a warrior/cleric or warrior/druid anymore? They all have unique spells and abilities that now set them apart from their respective "parent" classes. They are no longer DIRECTLY linked and/or limited by what the parent class can/cannot do. True, there are similarities. But there are just as many differences now. Nowadays, I see the only hybrids as being Beastlords and Rangers, because they are primarily melee classes, and they use their spells pretty equally in the areas of dps and utility.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Here's how I feel the classes get divided:
TANKS = Warrior, Paladin, Shadowknight, Ranger
HEALERS = Cleric, Shaman, Druid
MELEE DPS = Rogue, Zerker, Monk, Ranger, Beastlord, Bard
CASTER DPS = Necro, Wizard, Mage
UTILITY = Chanter, Bard, Monk, Beastlord, Ranger

As you can see, I feel some classes fit into a couple categories. And the order I listed them is the order I feel they are best in their respective categories.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
So where do you see the class lines? Are they divided or blurred?


#2 Feb 09 2009 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
Take rangers out of the "tank" definition. They just aren't....can they tank some stuff, sure...so can monks, beastlords, etc. Just because they have a taunt button doesn't classify them as tanks (in my opinon). Horrible mitigation and no stun resist aa's.

So many classes have ******* and moaned through the years(some rightly so) that Sony has farmed out what used to be unique abilities to damn near all the classes.
#3 Feb 09 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Rather than pigeon-holing them, you'd have better luck making one of those graphs where you put "Tank", "DPS", "Utility" and "Healing" into the corners and then plot everyone as dots.

Or else little bar charts like on the back of the Transformers figures when I was a kid Smiley: laugh

Paladin 
Tank:    XXXXXXXXX 
Healer:  XXXXX 
Utility: XX 
DPS:     XXXX 
 
Cleric 
Tank:    XXXX 
Healer:  XXXXXXXXXX 
Utility: XXXX 
DPS:     XXX


I just made those ratings up without much thought. Don't yell at me Smiley: grin
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4 Feb 09 2009 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
**
317 posts
That's a good way to look at it also Jophiel.

All the classes have *some* skill in all of those areas. Just how much, is the question.

I'd like to see others either come up with their own "unit of measurement" or expand on something like you suggested.

Who knows? Maybe it could help define what the classes mean to the player-base compared to how Sony has defined us.
#5 Feb 09 2009 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
For that matter, even the roles are blurry. You separate caster DPS from melee DPS whereas, to me, they're one and the same. Both are just a means to making the mob fall over quicker. On the other hand, we both just said "utility" but that covers everything from slows to hp buffs to lulls to teleports to mana regen to stuns to invisibility to haste to summoning arrows. You'd be better off (in my opinion) to break "utility" into AC/HP Buffs, Combat Utility (debuffs, short term buffs, stuns, etc) & OOC Utility (mana regen, invis, speed buffs, etc). Maybe someone else would break them down differently.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#6 Feb 09 2009 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
**
264 posts
I dont think its fair to try to put a class into one category or another, short of their "class". When I think of a tank, I do see a Warrior in that spot. But, I have seen some clerics stand there and do a damn good job of tanking. I have seen rangers and even my beastlord can tank to some degree.

I think generalizing classes into set "roles" is useless because each of us plays our toons differently than the next person. For example, my cleric is a get in there, tanking, beat the crap out of stuff cleric. On the other hand, my g/f's cleric just sits down and looks pretty and couldnt kill a grey w/o nuking it

Granted, some classes can do somethings better than other classes can. That is how it was designed to be. But, any player with a semi decent knowledge and reasonably decent gear for their lvl/lvl of the mob they killing can make a wizard that can tank at least for a limited time.

My shaman solos alot and tanks. I slow, dot, nuke, melee, heal, melee, nuke, etc. Perhaps not the most time efficient or mana efficient, but my shaman doesnt take any s*** from anything.

*note that I consider tanking the ability to stand toe-to-toe with a mob and kill it by whatever means you have and survive. Now I would not dare say that my shaman could ever tank anything yellow or higher like a true plate wearing tank. But when you spend most time soloing. you learn to do what you must.
#7 Feb 10 2009 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
**
647 posts
As a ranger, I can't tank anything worthwhile (i.e. beyond light blue), and I am regularly outtanked by real tanks (plate classes) with half my AA count and two thirds my AC.

Rangers as a class are in a much better situation now than just a few expansions ago - just don't think of us as tanks please. We're happy to snap aggro off the finger-wagglers, and pretty good at it too, but as to being at the receiving end of some frenzied monstrosity with weapons longer than my grandmother's [DELETED], well, there are certain people at the back of the class who are much better at that sort of thing *snickers*
#8 Feb 10 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
With the healer mercs, I think my druid is a tank. I'm only 55 atm. I'm working on maxing my defensive AAs. I hope to duo my omens runes when I get older.

#9 Feb 10 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
As a ranger, I can't tank anything worthwhile (i.e. beyond light blue), and I am regularly outtanked by real tanks (plate classes) with half my AA count and two thirds my AC.

Rangers as a class are in a much better situation now than just a few expansions ago - just don't think of us as tanks please. We're happy to snap aggro off the finger-wagglers, and pretty good at it too, but as to being at the receiving end of some frenzied monstrosity with weapons longer than my grandmother's [DELETED], well, there are certain people at the back of the class who are much better at that sort of thing *snickers*


I respectfully disagree, though it is certainly very gear and AA dependent. Personally I love to tank, and I wind up as MT in most exp groups I'm in (including T5 and Korafax instances). However, you do need to skew your build to AC, tanking heroics, and have solid AAs to do this as a ranger, but if you can you'll be a good tank from an aggro perspective.
#10 Feb 10 2009 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,580 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Rather than pigeon-holing them, you'd have better luck making one of those graphs where you put "Tank", "DPS", "Utility" and "Healing" into the corners and then plot everyone as dots.

Or else little bar charts like on the back of the Transformers figures when I was a kid Smiley: laugh

Paladin 
Tank:    XXXXXXXXX 
Healer:  XXXXX 
Utility: XX 
DPS:     XXXX 
 
Cleric 
Tank:    XXXX 
Healer:  XXXXXXXXXX 
Utility: XXXX 
DPS:     XXX


I just made those ratings up without much thought. Don't yell at me Smiley: grin


This strikes me as truly brilliant to be honest.

----

The later comments some make about role are valid, expand the list slightly and class differences emerge more. Do they actually matter? Maybe on a min/max 6-man group or less composition situation, in normal situations probably not.

Tank
Melee DPS
Range DPS
Slows
crowd control
buffs
debuffs
heals
unusual utility of note (would have the list them per class i.e., ports)

edit: "of" instead of "or" messes meaning

Edited, Feb 10th 2009 10:01pm by snailish
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 159 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (159)