Well, found out my Range can use a shield so thought would pick one up to hold in inventory if needed and I don't see a Bash as with my Pally. I did find a Shield Block in AA.
Is there a Bash for Rangers? or we just kick them hard rofl
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No Bash for Rangers. Seen a noticeable difference with a shield, but in general, the loss of dps wasn't worth it. So now, the only time I ever use on a Ranger, is versus a raid mob that hits for very hard (i.e. can kill me with a flurry of max or near max hits), where shield block may save me. If you like the shield on your Pal, you might play with it more on the Rng. Also, the shield I use is fairly low AC for the Rng level, but I didn't want to have put in for any raid shield. Rng is using the 80ish AC quested one from Valdahom / Frostcrypt.
The higher the AC, the more difference you should notice. Shield AC is pure, and doesn't get the soft cap adjustment. Never tried one on low level Rng, other than the Shiny Brass Shield for a light source, until dual-wield skill became available.
You might check out RangersGlade or some other Ranger specific website, I'm sure someone has done some good parses to give a better idea how much it helps on hits, versus dps lost.
Yther Ore.
The higher the AC, the more difference you should notice. Shield AC is pure, and doesn't get the soft cap adjustment. Never tried one on low level Rng, other than the Shiny Brass Shield for a light source, until dual-wield skill became available.
You might check out RangersGlade or some other Ranger specific website, I'm sure someone has done some good parses to give a better idea how much it helps on hits, versus dps lost.
Yther Ore.
Higher level kick can stun and interrupt spell casting, but really a shield is a bit of a waste on a ranger. You are hybrid dps not hybrid tank, but play it as you like above all else that matters.
My shield users all carry the shield drop from dain1.
My shield users all carry the shield drop from dain1.
Shields are not a waste on rangers. It's just another tool in our box.
Anything to help slow down the damage intake while you are slowing a mob with earthcaller is definitely worth it. We don't have the hp of the real tanks, and we don't have the mana of the real casters. The amount of dps you do against a mob doesn't always offset the need to slow that said mob.
I agree that not all rangers need a shield:
if you box a shaman/chanter/bard;
if you play regularly with a group of people that have a tank;
if you never solo with melee:
Then you probably don't NEED a shield.
Most Rangers DO need shields on a lot of named mobs. A really bad quad round from a named mob can put us down quick, even with 30k hps.
Rangers are the only hybrid class with taunt. So, if you find yourself without a warrior/sk/pally, equip a shield and go to town with summer's and taunt to keep aggro, while keeping that shield handy for named mobs. Believe me, we do much better with the shield equipped.
We CAN and WILL tank when needed, but of course, if you can sit back and do straight dps, more power to ya.
I recommend IF you find yourself tanking often, to get at least the quested shield from Vald, and one(1) level of shield block aa. It's worth it to be able to have the ability in the first place, but not worth enough to fill until lots of other aa's are done.
Remember: Rangers are jacks-of-all-trades, so in a pinch, you should be able to do *just about* anything, including tanking. So keep all of your tools sharpened and ready to go.
Anything to help slow down the damage intake while you are slowing a mob with earthcaller is definitely worth it. We don't have the hp of the real tanks, and we don't have the mana of the real casters. The amount of dps you do against a mob doesn't always offset the need to slow that said mob.
I agree that not all rangers need a shield:
if you box a shaman/chanter/bard;
if you play regularly with a group of people that have a tank;
if you never solo with melee:
Then you probably don't NEED a shield.
Most Rangers DO need shields on a lot of named mobs. A really bad quad round from a named mob can put us down quick, even with 30k hps.
Rangers are the only hybrid class with taunt. So, if you find yourself without a warrior/sk/pally, equip a shield and go to town with summer's and taunt to keep aggro, while keeping that shield handy for named mobs. Believe me, we do much better with the shield equipped.
We CAN and WILL tank when needed, but of course, if you can sit back and do straight dps, more power to ya.
I recommend IF you find yourself tanking often, to get at least the quested shield from Vald, and one(1) level of shield block aa. It's worth it to be able to have the ability in the first place, but not worth enough to fill until lots of other aa's are done.
Remember: Rangers are jacks-of-all-trades, so in a pinch, you should be able to do *just about* anything, including tanking. So keep all of your tools sharpened and ready to go.
Just to point out a correction, and probably what you meant:
Rng is the only chain (not hybrid) with taunt.
Hyrbrids = Sk, Pal, Rng, Bst, and Brd
Chain = Rng, Rog, Ber, Shm
Yther Ore.
Rng is the only chain (not hybrid) with taunt.
Hyrbrids = Sk, Pal, Rng, Bst, and Brd
Chain = Rng, Rog, Ber, Shm
Yther Ore.
I'd be inclined to agree with Jonwin. Neither of my Rangers bothers with a shield. But, to be fair, GreenShag's point is well taken. My rangers always have a slower of some kind with them so their Earthcallers only get taken out for giggles. When they have to tank, it's on trivial content (otherwise, I'd bring a tank along). Part of the problem is, if I ever come across a shield a ranger could use, chances are, a Paladin or SK (or even Warrior or Cleric or Druid or Shaman) would get better use out of it so they get it. And I'm not willing to quest for a shield for a dual wielder that isn't a primary tank.
Admittedly, I'm extremely myopic when it comes to class roles and abilities. Just because my clerics wear plate, doesn't mean I want them to tank named. Likewise, just because my rangers (and monks, in at least one instance) CAN use shields, doesn't mean I want them to do so. But if a decent shield was going to rot, I'd loot it on a ranger. Would wind up as bank decoration but you never know when it might come in handy. I still have a Qeynos Kite Shield from the pre-dual wield days on my 73.
Admittedly, I'm extremely myopic when it comes to class roles and abilities. Just because my clerics wear plate, doesn't mean I want them to tank named. Likewise, just because my rangers (and monks, in at least one instance) CAN use shields, doesn't mean I want them to do so. But if a decent shield was going to rot, I'd loot it on a ranger. Would wind up as bank decoration but you never know when it might come in handy. I still have a Qeynos Kite Shield from the pre-dual wield days on my 73.
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Hybrids = Sk, Pal, Rng, Bst, and Brd
I don't consider SK or Pally to be hybrids. They are tanks.
Bards are in a category all their own.
So, in my eyes, Rangers and Beastlords are the only true hybrids.
So yes, rangers are the only chain class to have taunt.
OR
I could have said:
"Rangers are one of only 4 classes to get the taunt skill."
We were ALWAYS meant to be the 4th tank. Unfortunately it took until SoF to make it so. But we are finally there.
All I'm saying, is that we can use the shield, we get the shield block aa's, we wear chain, we get decent ac/hp returns, we have aggro spells/abilities, and we can take the hits; might as well use the shield for what it's worth WHEN you REALLY need it. If you need it and you don't have it, it's too late.
And it is possible to do more than "trivial" content with a Ranger tank, we just need a little more healing and quicker slowing sometimes. =-)
Just so yuo know:
Melee = Warrior Monk Rogue Berserker (only discs, no spells)
Hyrbrid = Paladin Shadowknight Ranger Beastlord Bard (both discs and spells / songs)
Priest = Cleric Druid Shaman (wisdom based spells only)
Caster = Enchanter Magician Necromancer Wizard (intelligence based spells only)
Plate = Cleric Bard Paladin Shadowknight Warrior
Chain = Rogue Ranger Berserker Shaman
Leather = Druid Monk Beastlord
Silk = Enchanter Magician Necromancer Wizard
Most equipment and quests are divided along these lines. Most notable are the combination of melee and hybrid for one set of rewards, and priests and casters for another set of rewards on quests.
Other divisions are community based. And I'll leave that to others to discuss what they think tank, dps, etc. classes are.
I have / had no argument with Rng using a shield. Non-trivial content Rng can tank, not as well as a plate of equal level gear / AAs. Tanking Crystallos at 80 with only shm, rog, druid in the group was common for me, and is one of the main reason I switched to a War. If I was gonna have to tank difficult content all the time, might as well be with a real tank, and not a half-tank. Don't take this as a put down to any class. It's just how it is. Rangers are designed to do any job that is required under extreme circumstances, but not better than a class designed for any specific job.
And any class can tank, given the right set of gear, AAs, and tactics. However, in general, a Warrior will be your best option, all things other than class being equal.
Yther Ore.
Melee = Warrior Monk Rogue Berserker (only discs, no spells)
Hyrbrid = Paladin Shadowknight Ranger Beastlord Bard (both discs and spells / songs)
Priest = Cleric Druid Shaman (wisdom based spells only)
Caster = Enchanter Magician Necromancer Wizard (intelligence based spells only)
Plate = Cleric Bard Paladin Shadowknight Warrior
Chain = Rogue Ranger Berserker Shaman
Leather = Druid Monk Beastlord
Silk = Enchanter Magician Necromancer Wizard
Most equipment and quests are divided along these lines. Most notable are the combination of melee and hybrid for one set of rewards, and priests and casters for another set of rewards on quests.
Other divisions are community based. And I'll leave that to others to discuss what they think tank, dps, etc. classes are.
I have / had no argument with Rng using a shield. Non-trivial content Rng can tank, not as well as a plate of equal level gear / AAs. Tanking Crystallos at 80 with only shm, rog, druid in the group was common for me, and is one of the main reason I switched to a War. If I was gonna have to tank difficult content all the time, might as well be with a real tank, and not a half-tank. Don't take this as a put down to any class. It's just how it is. Rangers are designed to do any job that is required under extreme circumstances, but not better than a class designed for any specific job.
And any class can tank, given the right set of gear, AAs, and tactics. However, in general, a Warrior will be your best option, all things other than class being equal.
Yther Ore.
(Skip to the bottom to avoid the smell of a dead horse being clubbered yet again)
This marks the first time I've caught Jonwin saying something that directly contradicts everything I (think I) know about the ranger class. I wish it were true, what Jonwin says, but that's sadly not the case.
Rangers are tanks. This is not the way I envisioned the class back when I rolled my main (and only too I ever played seriously) in 2002, or what the class symbol would have you believe. Or the returns we get from AC, or our disability to wear decent armor, or our pitiful heal spells, or our ability to block damage periodically (since it refreshes about once every blue moon and only works in one direction) but still - rangers are supposed to fill the role of tanks.
"How so?", you say: well, take a look at the only active ranger forum I know of, EQOutrider, where you'll find that I and about three others still hold out for Archery and utility as the primary 'modes' for a ranger, while everyone else discuss how to improve rangers as tanks. Imo, what they are doing is coming up with ways to overcome the in-built flaws of rangers-as-tanks, rather than develop our unique and class-defining role as deadly archers, but thats what the majority wants, so that's where they VAST majority of AAs have gone for the past many many expansions. (EQOutrider is where our two class reps post, so I guess it's the closest we come to an 'official' ranger forum.)
Interestingly, in the last expansion, I was pleasantly surprised to see a few new Archery-related AAs come out, but the melee/archery AA DPS ratio is still at least 20:1, which tells you where the vocal rangers and SOE think a ranger should focus. The same goes for gear and augments, but I'll spare you the pain of reading through my rants any longer. Let's just say there's a lot that COULD have been done for Archery (which would also improve ranger utility) that hass been ignored in favor of a focus on tanking.
Conclusion: Shield AC is not important, it is CRITICAL for rangers that group or raid in above-trivial content. When you tank, DPS is your third concern; keeping aggro and staying on your feet are #1 and 2, and for staying on your feet, the AC from a shield >> all.
Quote:
a shield is a bit of a waste on a ranger.
This marks the first time I've caught Jonwin saying something that directly contradicts everything I (think I) know about the ranger class. I wish it were true, what Jonwin says, but that's sadly not the case.
Rangers are tanks. This is not the way I envisioned the class back when I rolled my main (and only too I ever played seriously) in 2002, or what the class symbol would have you believe. Or the returns we get from AC, or our disability to wear decent armor, or our pitiful heal spells, or our ability to block damage periodically (since it refreshes about once every blue moon and only works in one direction) but still - rangers are supposed to fill the role of tanks.
"How so?", you say: well, take a look at the only active ranger forum I know of, EQOutrider, where you'll find that I and about three others still hold out for Archery and utility as the primary 'modes' for a ranger, while everyone else discuss how to improve rangers as tanks. Imo, what they are doing is coming up with ways to overcome the in-built flaws of rangers-as-tanks, rather than develop our unique and class-defining role as deadly archers, but thats what the majority wants, so that's where they VAST majority of AAs have gone for the past many many expansions. (EQOutrider is where our two class reps post, so I guess it's the closest we come to an 'official' ranger forum.)
Interestingly, in the last expansion, I was pleasantly surprised to see a few new Archery-related AAs come out, but the melee/archery AA DPS ratio is still at least 20:1, which tells you where the vocal rangers and SOE think a ranger should focus. The same goes for gear and augments, but I'll spare you the pain of reading through my rants any longer. Let's just say there's a lot that COULD have been done for Archery (which would also improve ranger utility) that hass been ignored in favor of a focus on tanking.
Conclusion: Shield AC is not important, it is CRITICAL for rangers that group or raid in above-trivial content. When you tank, DPS is your third concern; keeping aggro and staying on your feet are #1 and 2, and for staying on your feet, the AC from a shield >> all.
I am not a number cruncher on ac mitigation, I have never been in a raiding guild for long, (they usually fell apart) nor did I say shields were a complete waste.
My point of view was based on my opinion that a ranger in a group even, as a tank, will be best in doing damage using double wield, relying on the healers to keep them up. I have now modified that opinion based on the rejoinders above.
I still think in the case of having to tank you would look more for a hp than ac but am willing to concede those who have faced raid mobs know more.
Btw, Adeste is my 62 ranger. I usually solo him or box him with a druid or cleric. Preferably the cleric. Ill have to pick up a shield and see for myself.
My point of view was based on my opinion that a ranger in a group even, as a tank, will be best in doing damage using double wield, relying on the healers to keep them up. I have now modified that opinion based on the rejoinders above.
I still think in the case of having to tank you would look more for a hp than ac but am willing to concede those who have faced raid mobs know more.
Btw, Adeste is my 62 ranger. I usually solo him or box him with a druid or cleric. Preferably the cleric. Ill have to pick up a shield and see for myself.
Thanks. I think I will pick up a Shield and just have it in inventory. Will do some soloing with it and am used to shields and used to dual wield. Will be fun to try a shield on a Ranger lol.
Equipping a shield makes a noticeable difference while range attacking mobs like Wirlem that have a nasty AE rampage.
It's a useful bit of specialty gear for a ranger.
It's a useful bit of specialty gear for a ranger.
Donbayne 100 Rng - Uinian 100 Dru - Breru 100 Sk - Nyenie 82 Brd - Ruusan 76 Clr - Braru 75 Mag - Syqen 100 Shm EQ Stromm/Luclin
Hehe, got me checking my Pally's shield and she could use an upgrade, so will check and see what is out there.
Thanks
Thanks
21 posts
I tank a lot for groups, and while I don't advocate using a shield full time when tanking (if you need to then you're in content that is too hard for you to really be an effective tank) because of the DPS loss, it's invaluable to have one set on your bandoleer for named MOBs, nasty multi-pulls, etc.
While the shield AC is a major reason for this, maxxed shield block AAs will buy you a lot more - even a 0 AC shield would be significant with these AAs (none the less, get the highest AC one you can and augment it with an AC aug - the 35AC aug from Crystallos that has nothing else is a solid choice)
If you plan to tank I also recommend always keeping a direct heal (not HoT) potion hot-keyed so you can hit it fast in an emergency - the extra couple of secons it often buys can be surprisingly often the difference between a real heal landing and an ignominious death! Oh - and make certain to buy the first level of the 'Hunters return kick' AA :-)
While the shield AC is a major reason for this, maxxed shield block AAs will buy you a lot more - even a 0 AC shield would be significant with these AAs (none the less, get the highest AC one you can and augment it with an AC aug - the 35AC aug from Crystallos that has nothing else is a solid choice)
If you plan to tank I also recommend always keeping a direct heal (not HoT) potion hot-keyed so you can hit it fast in an emergency - the extra couple of secons it often buys can be surprisingly often the difference between a real heal landing and an ignominious death! Oh - and make certain to buy the first level of the 'Hunters return kick' AA :-)
My Pally tanks and really havent ever considered my Ranger as a main tank if that is what you mean though she does a lot of damage and could certainly off tank or tank if needed for sure. But not picky. Either one can tank, offtank, as long as all are having fun.
I have bought my Ranger a Shield, actually not a bad one for now and will take her out this week and beat up some things to see how it goes but it will never replace the damage and spell damage from her dual wield. Will be nice to get to chose which one applies to a situation.
Right now I am trying to upgrade gear for both, get money for the solvents for the augs to put on new armor etc. all the usual stuff.
I have bought my Ranger a Shield, actually not a bad one for now and will take her out this week and beat up some things to see how it goes but it will never replace the damage and spell damage from her dual wield. Will be nice to get to chose which one applies to a situation.
Right now I am trying to upgrade gear for both, get money for the solvents for the augs to put on new armor etc. all the usual stuff.
what a class was envisioned as,
what a class has been,
what a class is now,
what a class should actually be,
These four things don't match (even 2/4) for many classes in EQ. Opposing views in many situations can just be viewed as tactics --that may or may not work for you.
I have known several wizards that could not, would not kite (thank you Suess) but that doesn't make wiazards a non-kiting class. Funnest groups my old ranger had were as main healer, certainly not a recommended path. At this point in the game, dagger & shield weilding robed ranger tanks? If it works for you why not...
what a class has been,
what a class is now,
what a class should actually be,
These four things don't match (even 2/4) for many classes in EQ. Opposing views in many situations can just be viewed as tactics --that may or may not work for you.
I have known several wizards that could not, would not kite (thank you Suess) but that doesn't make wiazards a non-kiting class. Funnest groups my old ranger had were as main healer, certainly not a recommended path. At this point in the game, dagger & shield weilding robed ranger tanks? If it works for you why not...
Anyone looking for a shield should really just put together a Dain one group.
Do it until you get the shield, its not bad at all.
Do it until you get the shield, its not bad at all.
I am an 85 Raiding Ranger. Until they added the shield block AA owning a shield never occurred to me. When they added the shield block AA I went ahead and picked up a Solteris shield that was rotting, put a nice AC aug in it and made a Bandolier for it called, "Tanking/Pulling". I had my doubts about what kind of difference it would make.
I can tell you that was about a year ago, since then I have saved exp grind groups from wipes 1,329 times. I've kept groups going that would have folded when the current tank left with none lfg about 735 times and I have saved my own personal bacon more times than I can remember by throwing it up as WS falls.
As far as tanking goes, it basically turns my raid geared toon into the equivalent of a group geared Knight class using their two hander while tanking. In retrospect, the dkp I spent on the shield was one of my top three purchases lifetime in terms of it's occassional, but powerful impact on my playing experience.
I can tell you that was about a year ago, since then I have saved exp grind groups from wipes 1,329 times. I've kept groups going that would have folded when the current tank left with none lfg about 735 times and I have saved my own personal bacon more times than I can remember by throwing it up as WS falls.
As far as tanking goes, it basically turns my raid geared toon into the equivalent of a group geared Knight class using their two hander while tanking. In retrospect, the dkp I spent on the shield was one of my top three purchases lifetime in terms of it's occassional, but powerful impact on my playing experience.
GreenShag wrote:
And it is possible to do more than "trivial" content with a Ranger tank, we just need a little more healing and quicker slowing sometimes. =-)
No doubt. But I have five characters who all tank better than my rangers (PAL, 2 WAR, SK, Monk), four of them because they're designed to be (the monk has better avoidance and discs to use in that situation). I believe in using the right tool for any given job, if at all possible. For me, it's possible. Thus, my rangers don't tank non-trivial content, my tanking specialists (WAR/PAL/SK) do. I'm not bringing a knife to a gunfight, I'm showing up with a MAC-11.
Again, I know very well that it's possible for rangers to tank non-trivial content. I've seen it done. But for my situation, it's been almost two years since I've had a need to use my rangers in that capacity because that's the precise reason I leveled/geared/AA'd plate class tanking specialists. Now sure, if my ranger was my only character or if I didn't have tanks to use, I'd give tanking a shot with them. Wouldn't be my first choice though. I don't dislike the idea of rangers tanking (hell, my monk still has a Shield of Rainbow Hues in her bank that she used to use way back when, pulling in Hate/Fear/Kael), it's just not what I'd choose to do if I had a choice (and I do).
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