Dwindling PopulationFollow

More straw men talking about glowing lines, not needing food and drink, and the search function. Yes, these are time savers that reduce the tedium of trading. To some degree they are stand-ins for employees and advertising, which would be harder to implement in the game.

Being more "realistic" has little intrinsic value in the case of these attributes. However, the trading system suffers from being extremely simplistic. The products are standardized due to there being no such a thing as wear and tear, no differences in manufacture, and fully visible attributes. When this is combined with an E-Bay style of trade, there is very little resemblance to real world business. Making it so there is some variation as to who is trading at any given time reduces the amount of market information available at any given time, adding a dynamic that complexifies a ridiculously simple system. It produces a market game that is interesting enough to enhance the game at least for some players.

Realism is a trade-off. We don't want to be attending to every biological function and menial task our characters are undertaking. The notion is that those tasks that don't provide a dynamic to the game or that are made unreasonably difficult by the interface should be cut out (Hawking wares is an extremely time consuming job that is barely worth the effort in the real world). In your argument, you're comparing attributes that provide significant tedium for little game dynamic to an attribute will far less tedium and a larger game dynamic. It may be that you don't get that there is a dynamic, or maybe you're just unable to take advantage of that dynamic and are bitter about it. However, it is there. Changing to an EQ2 style bazaar would do more than remove some tedium from the bazaar. It would remove a dimension from trading that was retained when the bazaar was designed as it is.

Well bottom line I have seen it done both ways and I prefer just putting something up for sale and forgetting about it while I am out doing something else. Having to make a choice of playing or sitting in the bazaar doing nothing I take playing every time.

I do manage to get my trader up once in a while but usually its during off peak hours when traffic is slow. In the context of dwindling population this is not a plus to play the game.

You have to look at it from a new persons point of view. Granted the new defiant gear randomly drops but not nearly as often enough to totaly gear yourself for that lvl range. So either you go without or buy gear. Now if said new person has never played any mmo's before and EQ is his first game its not a big deal. But if he has played any other mmo's he is going to be laughing at the fact he has to remain logged on to sell anything. It's just one more reason to go play WoW or something else.

I love EQ and the game has had me, a long time player, frustrated enough to quit a few times. So what chance does a noob have of staying when there are so many other games out there that are not so time consuming?

The discussion of comparing EQ with WoW has a completely wrong spin. It boils sown to what kind of a game you want ... examples:

Example 1:
In my old days I camped the Raster of Guk. I camped him for 38 (!) consequetive hours and finally got him. I finalised my monk epic 1.0 and was among the first of my server. Did I regret the camping time? Not at all ... I got the epic. It was a huge event and party in my guild.

Example 2:
Raid in NToV. My guild is the first of the server to get to the nameds and battle them. We had the best clerics on the server and the battle rages high: This one named (forgit the name) goes to 40% when the first clerics (chain-clerics doing constant complete heals on the main tank) call "20 mana" ... necros start pumping even more mana ... dam-dealers kick in their dics for more damage. And the mob goes down with only two clerics left with enough mana for a heal left.

What do these examples tell us: If you want to regain mana in ubb0r speed by sitting down (on a horse, the floor, a chair - whatever), if you want access to ubb0r gear just like that EQ is not your game. It is a challenging game that is for more serious gamers than WoW is. Anything else (UI, zoning time, you name it) is meaningless. Period.

I not only play EQ but, from the sounds of it, it doesn't raise my blood pressure nearly as much as it raises yours

You saw population increase because school is out....we need a raise in population from the every day player.

Yeah, you're right. Being able to pick up a game and immediately play it without futzing with a clunky interface supposedly designed to HELP you pick up and play it faster, is meaningless. Being able to GET to a zone to do those events you mention is also meaningless. I mean, who cares if the game crashes every time you change areas, amirite?

Look, there are people who will go to their graves insisting that there is nothing wrong with this game, that none of the more recent games have added anything worthwhile, despite developer quotes to the contrary. You think SOE isn't trying to find a way to implement Public Quests? Like I'm sure SOE was the first MMO developer to conceive of instancing, hireable mercenaries, a mentoring system, fast travel, and alternate means of character advancement and development.

I remember the days you mention. I recall spending 70 hours (straight) in Halls of Testing farming armor, because the area was contested by 7 guilds. If we left, there was no telling when we'd get another opportunity to gear up. I recall spawn racing and three guilds in the Insignia room in Ssra ready to click in to Emp's room. I loved those days. But one thing that's often missed in these discussions is the fact that the market has moved on. EQ's target audience in '99 is now 10 years older. Think about that for a minute. Ten years ago, where were you in life and what were you doing? Did you have more available, uninterrupted free time then?

To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter what you or I think or want. If you put every person who liked EQ "in the old days" on one server, they probably couldn't produce enough revenue to keep the server open. That's not an insult (I'd be on that server too) but both the market, perception, and definitions have changed. Used to be if a game had 100k subs, it was excellent. Now? Half a million just to earn a seat at the grownups table. You have folks coming up with all kinds of pricing schemes because the vanilla subscriptions model doesn't produce enough revenue for "smaller titles" by someone's definition (which has changed since the turn of the century). So sure, UI is meaningless to you but to Joe MMOer who started playing back when he was in high school or college and now has a screaming wife and babies in the background, doesn't have 2+ hours to figure out what does what. He just wants to sit down, pick up on things as quickly as possible (thus, all the pictures everywhere in all the newer games' UIs) and play for an hour and make some progress. He doesn't want to spend 2 mins zoning between areas, he doesn't want his level progression to plateau before "the good part" of the game (whatever that may be), and he sure as hell doesn't want to be shackled to other players and their prejudices just to make a modicum of progress (so forced grouping is OUT. Soloability to the cap is IN). He also doesn't want three gaming sessions (or more) of progress wiped out in one death (remember old school Fear breaks?).

Anyway, sorry for the epistle. It just seems like whenever this topic comes up, someone takes it as a chance to insult or look down on folks who play other games. I've spoken to many of these folks (trying to convince them to at least TRY EQ) but their reasons for not doing so are very valid. Granted, with many of the changes in recent years, there's not much difference between the games. However, SOE's continued resistance to merge servers still leaves the one major 'con' of EQ: population (or lack thereof). This game was SO freakin' awesome when you could log in, go to a level appropriate zone, and just jump in a group (or go to another level appropriate zone). With so many things instanced nowadays, crowding isn't even a secondary concern (tertiary, at best). People I've spoke to who play WoW like to see other people around, even if they're not available to group. You know if you go to a capital city, you're going to see a lot of people running around (and not the roomful of statues that exists in the guild lobby). Yes, they're playing an MMO but that doesn't mean they want people all up in their grill whenever they play.

I can't speak for WAR (which, last I read, was merging servers or offering xp bonuses to people who play a low population side (usually Order)) but WoW's free transfer is essentially what EQ used to call "server splits". Basically, they have a dozen servers that are OVERpopulated (by their metrics) so they're allowing players on those servers to move, for free, to a new server they're launching specifically for that purpose. They've done that over a dozen times since the game launched.

At this point, I think the best thing SOE could do is consolidate into say 8 servers, not including FV, Zek, Al'Kabor, and the new one. Perhaps in a year's time, after everything shakes out, there would be a reason to do a split of some kind. I'd like to think having a robust playerbase on each server and at all levels, would mask the fact that the game's in decline (numbers wise) and maybe reverse that trend.

I think you are wrong at every aspect you mentioned...go play wow...My personal belief is, that if they were to stick a wow player in a locked room with a Banana on the ceiling and three boxes that could be stacked to reach it... They would starve to death....but a monkey would NOT. In fact I don't even think it is a belief, Vegas would give me odds in my favor.

Armourcarr, Zek Bazaar Trader
Vinney DeWanderer, Zek Human Ranger

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 1:53am by Vinney

Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 1:54am by Vinney

I think there are a couple of things (outside of the current game build) that would be fairly easy for SOE to do to help out the populations.

I know it’s expensive to run the servers and support them. You upped the cost on us to 14.99 a month so I don't want to hear that.

1.) Combine more servers. Load everyone up on a Euro and US server, a PVP, have a test server, and a progression/rule set server up that will merge in at the end of its run. (plus one classic… more on that later)

2.) Have a ridiculous intro price after the free trial. Like 3.99-5.99 monthly for the first year. If they are hooked by then they will moronically pay what I pay. If not then it was more people that were present that year for loyal players to interact with.
3.) Lifetime memberships. Yes make them available. The cost would have to be high (imagine a price tag of 299.99...its crazy but how many Hardcore players will do that...alot….most of the population now is hardcore loyalist), but we are already paying current market for a decade old game.

4.) Station Cash (as much as I hate it) would have to be expanded on to help off-set lifetime memberships.

5.) Keep up the good work with the expansion content. While it has taken EQ classic away, most large additions work with what we currently have today with the population and player base issues.

6.) Fix the darn forums. Just because the game is getting older, the SOE forums where new players will go first, does not have to give the vibe of a company that doesn't really care to update Everquest. If I didn't play EQ back in the day and I was a 18-21 yr old and saw those boards I might assume the game was homebrew and free garbage.

7.) If you are already doing station cash and allowing boxing... why not give extra incentives for friend referral? People are going to exploit this with 2 and 3 boxed accounts of course. Do it by credit cards registered and the new person has to be on a few months after the free trial. The rewards could be a free month or two of subscription (maybe for both the new and referring player) or even in game items. With station Cash already in, I think in-game items, like XP boosters, or special dyes would be just fine. You could have gear or mounts only available to people with 6-10 successful referrals. “Armor of the calling” or some such crap… (make the people work for you.)

8. ) get on with a classic EQ server already. Make this only available Lifetime subcribers and new players (the new players will have to go lifetime after trial or get locked out) Don’t do it half way do it right. Nothing past Kunark, no Luclin Graphics, original rule set and spells, you will need your buddy the druid to bounce around. I like a lot of the newer stuff, but the second you bend on one thing other will follow. The hardcore classic lovers will thank you in the long run the more strict you are.

Here would be the outcome.
-Higher Populations on servers from merge
-Less hardware for administrators
-Current content people love will still be there
-Finally a Classic EQ server that will be full of hardcore players that will brag about it like crazy (free marketing)
-Word of mouth alone about EQ offering up lifetimes and having a 12 month 3.99-5.99 price , would be more marketing that EQ has seen in a while.
-The new forums would attract more players and have a place that existing EQ players could navigate nicely and find useful information, guilds, and other players to group with. The current moaning bout low population is NOT helping the population.
-There would be incentives to talk you buddy into getting his or her butt of here finally, or even to come back.

I understand SOE can’t use money and resources to go out and properly market EQ. They can make adjustments to get other players to really get motivated and do it for them.

Sorry for the long post… I was bored at work 

Masking,
Like you most of my posts are “Board at Work” posts. LOL
You have some great ideas, just hope someone from SoE reads and understands our concerns. In my opinion NEW population is the key to the games continuing success.
Example: This is EverQuest 10th anniversary. What an opportunity for SoE to take advantage of Free Press. Besides Allakhazam making a big deal of it, I see no advertising even in game. General chat on Zek was still speculative if there was going to be patch to institute Fabled or was it already installed last patch. There was no notice enticing us to the happenings to come in the next month. I don’t see or have heard anything super special besides the regular “Fabled Mobs” & some quest. In my opinion there should be a lot of GM events, Mass zone spawns with no drop stuff, even for low levels.
I don’t know why, but there doesn’t seem to be great excitement like there used to be among the players. Maybe still new and started on a work day.

Armourcarr, Zek Bazaar Trader
Vinney DeWanderer, Zek Human Ranger.

First off masking, toss out your General chat numbers. They'll hurt the point you're trying to make. Many people don't join General because it's largely the domain of trolls, scammers, and spammers. On any given night, if I have six accounts logged in, maybe one is in General (MAYBE. Usually it's none). Perhaps some enterprising individual could come up with a mod akin to WoW Census that could count population a bit more accurately (but still not 100%).

I've been a proponent of the lifetime subscription thing for years now (since Turbine committed to it with LOTRO). Think about it. I have a total of 33 accounts (). If I signed up even HALF of those, that would be far more than SOE gets from me now (I typically rotate them and only have 8 active at any one time). And it would make sense for me to do so if I planned to play more than 2 years (and if I thought SOE would keep EQ going for that long). I can think of at least 12 of my characters I'd sign up for that, if the option existed.

EQ's population is going to seesaw for the foreseeable future. It'll go up around now for fabled and the anniversary events then go down again until Living Legacy Part Deux then go down until the next expansion and so on.

i think one of the problems with decreasing population is the introduction of new servers. As soon as a new server becomes available, poof people from current servers go there. more toons is what is needed on current servers, not more servers. Why not just combine some of the existing ones so that we have more people.

As for lag etc on EQ sony needs to create a new engine...people have quit because they cannot expierence new expansions because the lag makes playing unenjoyable. My son plays WoW on this pc and has no lag whatsoever there, yet even with turning off or down numerous display options i still get lots of lag....but before SoD and updates to SoF i had virtually no lag at all with all display options on

Lifetime subscription I think is a great idea. I would do it for three of my four accounts.

But I still think the thing that needs to be done most is more personalization. Let me be different from every other Paladin in the game (please stop laughing at me for playing a paladin)

Before you say, "how does that bring in more population"

Answer: Word of mouth. I talk to my friends that used to play the game all the time, I have several friends that play WoW, or Warhammer, that I would tell about the new innovations.

God I hope SOE is reading and actually cares about this thread, it has some really good stuff in it.

The live chat the other day was a joke, they basically said everyones ideas were either already done or couldn't be done, they never once (might be exagerating with NEVER, but not by much) said they were going to do anything.

As optomistic as I am, I do believe that they have no intentions of putting money into EQ to make it better than it currently is. Too many of them are sitting up there talking about what a good run they have had.

Team Foustes:
Foustes 85 Paladin Xegony
Sebeena 85 Monk Xegony
Napy 85 Wizard Xegony