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My Enchanter: Accepting ObsolescenceFollow

#52 Feb 22 2008 at 6:18 PM Rating: Default
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Well if you weren't whining before you are now.

I'm not sure how you want people to respond.

Quit playing an enchanter if you don't think its a worthwhile class for you to play. But don't assume others share your opinion. There are valuable enchanters out there that seem to have no problems finding work.


Time to discontinue discussion with you, I think. It appears to me that your hyperdefensiveness just went into overdrive. I already told you how I play my Enchanter, and that I just attained three levels and over 400 AAs with very little grouping, and only if someone needs a specific mob killed, but you keep insisting that I "don't think its [sic] a worthwhile class for you to play."

There's little point in replying to someone who keeps insisting the same thing over and over again, regardless of how many times it's been refuted. Think as you like. You will anyway.

I would have had this thread been an interesting discussion as to how the class has changed, its little to no value in a group setting considering how most people play. (As several posters in this thread have confirmed.) And its viability as a solo class. But the thread has turned ugly and personal attacks have now spoiled it. And for that, we have you to thank. Take a bow.

Have a good life. I'm done with you completely.

#53 Feb 22 2008 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
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After reading all the posts by the OP here methinks our friend has a severe case of Shaman Envy, and the only solution is to roll a shaman and get him up to 80. He will never again be without work, will always have a group, will always be wanted, for on his server, Shamen are in hot demand. And on the rare occasion when as a Shaman he cannot get work *gasp* he has a wonderful well-qualified solo-ready Enchanter to play until such time as people begin to send him tells begging for his Shaman.

Two good RL friends play shamen in game, and I have grouped with both for a couple of years now. I cannot count the times we have been in an instance, or a dungeon, or trying to break some camp of mobs and said "Damn we need some CC here. This would be a whole lot better if we had an enchanter, or even a bard." I have never experienced faster killing with a shaman in the group as opposed to an enchanter. The two are completely different classes, with the exception that both can slow. So what. I like having both in the group. They do different stuff.

Doesn't the Enchanter get a line of nice debuff spells (Tash, Incapacitate etc) that weaken the mob up nicely, making them easier to kill? Or do level 80 elite players not want that in a group either? Seems as though you can cast those without anyone knowing, except suddenly the mobs become easier to kill.

My level 80 RL ranger friend needs to go to Chardok b for an epic drop, and his exact words were "We aren't going in there without some crowd control though". He didn't say "We aren't going in there without our trusty Shaman by our side." He said "crowd control". Even a bard would be hard pressed in there, but a good enchanter would save the day.

Tis bad logic to condemn an entire class to obsolescence based entirely on your own experience and one guy posting in the forum. People are entitled to their opinions, and everyone plays the game their own way. I my own years of personal experience, a desire for off-tanking in group situations comes from the above-mentioned zerg mentality and a sheer ignorance on the part of newer players of the idea of mezzing and crowd control. It has been stated here by several people that using crowd control is the most resource-efficient way to deal with a multiple-mob pull. That is what the enchanter class was designed for. I have found that a well-worded, gentle suggestion to try crowd control has been met with success, and pleasure on the part of the group when the killing starts to go much faster and the healer suddenly isn't perma-OOM anymore.

If you disagree, if you think you are obsolete, if you think no one wants you, that's fine; it's your opinion and you are entitled to it. The rest of us will go on as usual, grabbing enchanters for our groups when we can find them, and playing the game the way that we want to. I even saw a guild invite in one of the posts. Enchanters apparently are still viable on some servers.

There will always be players who think certain classes are useless; I tend to avoid them - or more likely they avoid me. Maybe your server is more populated with those types than the rest of the servers. In which case, I reiterate my initial statement that you roll up a shaman and become desirable in the eyes of your server-mates and most importantly, yourself.


I will concede that Shamen are better in group settings than the Enchanter. If you have a group that doesn't like Charm (which would be about 99% of them), and prefers to off-tank over crowd control, then the Shaman is most definitely better. It's really useless to argue otherwise. Once you eliminate the need for CC and Charm, what can an Enchanter do that a Shaman doesn't do better?

On the other hand, I doubt a Shaman is as well-equipped for soloing as I am.

But it should also be noted that crowd control doesn't necessarily mean a mezzing class. I've seen people remove mobs from the group and use a root. In open spaces, Druids, Necromancers, Bards or Rangers can kite the adds. Adds can also be effectively negated by charming, even turned into DPS for you.

The debuffs you mention are pretty good. The Enchanter can slow up to 70%, and has a "Cripple" line of spells on a par with Shamen. While their resist debuff line lowers MR only, and while other classes have resist debuffs that can lower MR further, plus other resistances, the Enchanter Tash line has one distinct advantage: it's completely irresistable.

More recent additions include "deep sleep," a proc that comes with their mezzes, which will cause the mob to suffer attack penalties for two minutes after the mezz lands. Another one is a "Wake of Atrophy" aura, which lowers the HP of any mob that gets within it.

Thanks, by the way, for a thoughtful reply. I'm glad to see that some can disagree without becoming defensive about it.
#54 Feb 23 2008 at 12:20 AM Rating: Good
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96 posts
I cannot agree that chanters have evolved to have little or no value in a group. There are plenty enough people out there who value them - you just have to find them.

Tonight I was in a group with a cleric, an SK, and oh my - the Holy Grail - FOUR Shamen. In a TBS Instance dungeon. And it was slow. PAINFULLY slow - because you know what? We had no ENCHANTER. yeah. Enchanter. If only we had the sweet AoE mezz followed by a super sweet MemWipe we would not have had to worry about getting creamed by the adds. Repeatedly. The SK valiantly tried to split pull. He was really good - but it was slow. And sometimes several came - they must have liked his cologne. So we had deaths.

Finally, I offered a suggestion that maybe if only two came, we could devote one shammy to keeping it rooted. Because roots break. And in a dungeon you can't kite. OH - and new expansion mobs have a tendency to summon. And having people off-rooting and running around adds to the chaos. They took the suggestion, and it worked. Luckily we had someone to spare who could pay attention only to the off-rooted mob. You CAN suggest people do things they have not thought of - it's all in how you phrase it. I wish we had had an enchanter - that task would have gone SO much faster. I'd have traded all 4 shammies for 1 Enchanter.

After we finished the task I helped one of the shamen burn Devoted on his alt cleric. Kiting was pitifully slow in Katta with my gimp DoTs till a random necro joined us. Turns out this was her unguilded solo char; guess what one of her main raiding chars was? Yup - an Enchanter. Granted, she was an old school player (she has the clicky Mem-Blur stick), but I asked her anyways about Enchanters and obsolescence. She was aghast at the suggestion. She even went so far as to say Enchanters can put out an ungodly amount of DPS if they know how to play all the nuances of their class. She said her 75 chanter kills the Katta greenhouse snakes faster than her 80 necro does. She agrees that chanters now have great solo ability, but also said that they are STILL VERY viable in groups. She said they make great pullers, next to bards and monks. She said too many of them don't know how to use mem-blur, and even less even know how to play their class. She said most new chanters only think their job is to buff and slow, and get upset when Shamen can do it better. I mentioned that some enchanters think their DPS is disgusting, and both the shaman/cleric and the necro/Enchanter vehemently disagreed.

So it seems to me it is all in how you look at it. There are still plenty of people out there who appreciate a good player of ANY class, and there are elitist snobs who think only certain classes deserve to play. There are the ignorant troglodytes who will only play a certain way, and refuse to try anything new, and there are the merely Uninformed, who would be very happy to learn just what an Enchanter can do. There are players of all types on all servers. If you are lucky to find some of the good ones, remember their names. Build your own groups. I think you would be surprised at how many people are happy to get in a group - any group. And if crowd control is the rule, they can play that way or go LFG again.

Enchanters are not obsolete, nor are any of the classes in Everquest. Some may have to sell themselves a little harder, but most classes have to go through that at some point in the game's evolution. It's all in how you choose to play. You can surround yourself with fun-loving people or you can beat your head against the wall trying to fit in with ignorant zerg-happy snobs. If you have chosen the latter, roll up a Shaman and they will be beating down your door looking to group with you. I prefer the fun loving people, but that route is not always viable to some people.

C'est la Vie.





#55 Feb 23 2008 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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402 posts
Quote:
I cannot agree that chanters have evolved to have little or no value in a group. There are plenty enough people out there who value them - you just have to find them.

Tonight I was in a group with a cleric, an SK, and oh my - the Holy Grail - FOUR Shamen. In a TBS Instance dungeon. And it was slow. PAINFULLY slow - because you know what? We had no ENCHANTER. yeah. Enchanter. If only we had the sweet AoE mezz followed by a super sweet MemWipe we would not have had to worry about getting creamed by the adds. Repeatedly. The SK valiantly tried to split pull. He was really good - but it was slow. And sometimes several came - they must have liked his cologne. So we had deaths.

Finally, I offered a suggestion that maybe if only two came, we could devote one shammy to keeping it rooted. Because roots break. And in a dungeon you can't kite. OH - and new expansion mobs have a tendency to summon. And having people off-rooting and running around adds to the chaos. They took the suggestion, and it worked. Luckily we had someone to spare who could pay attention only to the off-rooted mob. You CAN suggest people do things they have not thought of - it's all in how you phrase it. I wish we had had an enchanter - that task would have gone SO much faster. I'd have traded all 4 shammies for 1 Enchanter.

After we finished the task I helped one of the shamen burn Devoted on his alt cleric. Kiting was pitifully slow in Katta with my gimp DoTs till a random necro joined us. Turns out this was her unguilded solo char; guess what one of her main raiding chars was? Yup - an Enchanter. Granted, she was an old school player (she has the clicky Mem-Blur stick), but I asked her anyways about Enchanters and obsolescence. She was aghast at the suggestion. She even went so far as to say Enchanters can put out an ungodly amount of DPS if they know how to play all the nuances of their class. She said her 75 chanter kills the Katta greenhouse snakes faster than her 80 necro does. She agrees that chanters now have great solo ability, but also said that they are STILL VERY viable in groups. She said they make great pullers, next to bards and monks. She said too many of them don't know how to use mem-blur, and even less even know how to play their class. She said most new chanters only think their job is to buff and slow, and get upset when Shamen can do it better. I mentioned that some enchanters think their DPS is disgusting, and both the shaman/cleric and the necro/Enchanter vehemently disagreed.

So it seems to me it is all in how you look at it. There are still plenty of people out there who appreciate a good player of ANY class, and there are elitist snobs who think only certain classes deserve to play. There are the ignorant troglodytes who will only play a certain way, and refuse to try anything new, and there are the merely Uninformed, who would be very happy to learn just what an Enchanter can do. There are players of all types on all servers. If you are lucky to find some of the good ones, remember their names. Build your own groups. I think you would be surprised at how many people are happy to get in a group - any group. And if crowd control is the rule, they can play that way or go LFG again.

Enchanters are not obsolete, nor are any of the classes in Everquest. Some may have to sell themselves a little harder, but most classes have to go through that at some point in the game's evolution. It's all in how you choose to play. You can surround yourself with fun-loving people or you can beat your head against the wall trying to fit in with ignorant zerg-happy snobs. If you have chosen the latter, roll up a Shaman and they will be beating down your door looking to group with you. I prefer the fun loving people, but that route is not always viable to some people.

C'est la Vie.


Thank you for the reply. It is very interesting to hear also the opinions of friends and those you have played with. I have to admit, I'm not sure of this "ungodly amount of DPS" that an Enchanter can supposedly dish out, unless they charm. Possibly also hitting a fast nuker with "Mana Flare."

I personally think that if I were to take up grouping again, I would probably reintroduce charming. People worry about the danger of a broken charm, but the Enchanter, with this and more recent expansions, have the tools to deal with this. Ward of Bewilderment will proc a mezz on a mob that starts beating on the Enchanter. Polychromatic Rune will proc an AoE stun. There's Color Shock also. In addition there is Beguiler's Directed Banishment, which will knockback, root and blur a mob for a few ticks. More than enough time for an Enchanter to reclaim a mob that has broken charm.

As far as tweaks go, I would say reduce the cast time of the Enchanter nukes and DoTs. The class is supposed to be the most mentally acute out of all of them. So, why are they casting sluggish nukes? If they worry about the Enchanters getting too much DPS, reduce the damage of the nuke. Three years ago, Dementia was a very sluggish Enchanter nuke, taking six seconds to cast and having a huge recovery time. Then they reduced the cast time to 4.5 seconds, reduced the damage and mana cost, and added a one second stun. I submitted /feedbacks, praising this revamp to the skies, hoping that all our nukes would work that way. But it didn't.

Ah, well...
#56 Feb 23 2008 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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96 posts
That has got to be the most positive thing I've heard you say - and not once did you mention Shamen! Now that Enchanters have been given these AAs to make charming viable again, by all means - start up again! There are still players out there who are willing to try new things, or at least not tell you how to play your Enchanter. Make connections and get out there and group.

Enchanters are not obsolete by any means; they just have an ******* so varied that they really need to know everything they can do in order to maximize themselves. Charming, Debuffing, Crowd Control - all are still the Enchanter's domain; off-rooting, off-kiting, or off-tanking will only take a group so far. Show some people your stuff and they'll never go back to that! I can't count the number of group deaths occurring in instance zones because we got multiples and either I or the shaman was off-rooting, and root broke, chaos ensued, Loading, Please Wait... Followed closely by "Dammit we need an Enchanter."

After telling my RL friend about these new AAs he is all excited to play his Enchanter again. I'm considering setting the druid aside to play my enchanter.

Oh - and before you bemoan your slow-casting nukes too much...consider that my druid nukes take 10 seconds to cast. Thankfully I have some focus items to speed that up - but that's the main reason I root-rotted most of my career instead of kiting like a proper druid.

Good luck out there.
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