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Fixing the Solo WarriorFollow

#1 Jun 09 2005 at 7:32 PM Rating: Default
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When I first started playing, I had rolled a warrior (and a rogue, but that’s another matter). Over time I found that they both sucked at solo play. I really liked the warrior, but I enjoyed the pure survivability of the SK (and their ability to solo).

If there is to be true balance, the warrior solo ability needs to be fixed. This thread is for research before posting it on the SoE boards/Steel Warrior. For this thread, I promise to be good and not flame anyone (there are peeps that are not too fond of old 'Fear Death').

OK, my take. How do you improve Warrior solo ability in a way that doesn’t overpower them in a group/raid setting? Difficult, I assure you. After thinking about it for a couple of weeks, I came up with a theme. Warriors run from nothing. These are the ideas I came up with.

Raise the DS cap Wearable/Innate Damage shield cap needs to be increased by 15?

Raise the Regen Cap Wearable/Innate Regen needs to be increased by 50.

Taunt tables. I have brought up the fact that taunt tables need to be introduced to the taunting classes. Warriors need to be at the top of that table. SK’s, Pally’s, Rangers would fall in afterwards in some order.

Discipline Duel (not to be confused with /duel). This would be a disc where a warrior can challenge one mob and cancel all social agro and each hit by the warrior reduces hate by –250 (I’ll explain this in a bit). It also doesn’t work if the Warrior is grouped.

Basically, its akin to ‘calling someone out’. It would also be linked to the warrior defensive disc in that they could not be used at the same time. The duration of this disc would be 10 min reusable every 30 min. While it's is active, the warrior would get 1% mitigation per their lvl (yes a lvl 70 warrior would get 70% mitigation). OK here is the kicker, the disc drops when the warrior loses agro. This is where the agro reduction comes in. If another player heals, or even walks within proximity agro range, guess what? You lose agro.

Think about this disc hard. If any assist’s go on, it cancels the discipline (thus limiting it). Think how powerful it would be in PvP (which Warriors lack in also). It could be used in a couple of ways; in one on one duels, as a Train tool (/disc duel a hard mob, train it to the opponent who then eats the mob). Additionally, Warriors could be awesome pulling named mobs.

Downsides to /disc duel. Warriors tag teaming /disc duel. Warrior /disc dueling a named and then pulling them once the mob is ‘softened up’ some (I doubt this would be overpowering).

Discuss…
#2 Jun 09 2005 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Raise the DS cap Wearable/Innate Damage shield cap needs to be increased by 15?

I'd prefer for tank classes to just get an innate level-scaling DS (that has some method of being turned off, perhaps just a free scaling aa.)

Quote:
Raise the Regen Cap Wearable/Innate Regen needs to be increased by 50.
most people who solo won't cap the current cap, most people who cap the current cap won't solo.

Quote:
Taunt tables. I have brought up the fact that taunt tables need to be introduced to the taunting classes. Warriors need to be at the top of that table. SK’s, Pally’s, Rangers would fall in afterwards in some order.

already exists, if I understand what you're suggesting right (also, isn't related to soloing...

Quote:
Discipline Duel (not to be confused with /duel). This would be a disc where a warrior can challenge one mob and cancel all social agro and each hit by the warrior reduces hate by –250 (I’ll explain this in a bit). It also doesn’t work if the Warrior is grouped.

Basically, its akin to ‘calling someone out’. It would also be linked to the warrior defensive disc in that they could not be used at the same time. The duration of this disc would be 10 min reusable every 30 min. While it's is active, the warrior would get 1% mitigation per their lvl (yes a lvl 70 warrior would get 70% mitigation). OK here is the kicker, the disc drops when the warrior loses agro. This is where the agro reduction comes in. If another player heals, or even walks within proximity agro range, guess what? You lose agro.

Think about this disc hard. If any assist’s go on, it cancels the discipline (thus limiting it). Think how powerful it would be in PvP (which Warriors lack in also). It could be used in a couple of ways; in one on one duels, as a Train tool (/disc duel a hard mob, train it to the opponent who then eats the mob). Additionally, Warriors could be awesome pulling named mobs.

Downsides to /disc duel. Warriors tag teaming /disc duel. Warrior /disc dueling a named and then pulling them once the mob is ‘softened up’ some (I doubt this would be overpowering).a

do you really want me to be able to solo vindi?

do you really want me to have -that- much of an easier time shakerpaging?
#3 Jun 09 2005 at 9:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly,
This crap gets so old...if you don't like the game...go play something else.
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#4 Jun 09 2005 at 10:33 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Honestly,
This crap gets so old...if you don't like the game...go play something else.


... reminds me of "If you dont like America then get out!" as if people who have something critical to say have no right to say it.


Quote:
Discipline Duel (not to be confused with /duel). This would be a disc where a warrior can challenge one mob and cancel all social agro and each hit by the warrior reduces hate by –250 (I’ll explain this in a bit). It also doesn’t work if the Warrior is grouped.


... The problem is the obvious pulling exploits. A quick popping disc that massively reduces hate but also reduces incoming damage would be the best way. Maybe give it some riposte capablities as well.
#5 Jun 09 2005 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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... reminds me of "If you dont like America then get out!" as if people who have something critical to say have no right to say it.


Okay,
If...you don't like America...get out.

If you are already out...stay out.

It is a game. It isn't your life, or is it?

You poor sob.

I play the game, I enjoy it. I am the 'poor sob'.

I like to help people...in and out of the game(these boards for example.)

I get tired of seeing these threads that want to change the game into some thing else...and I know from reading your posts that you feel the same way Dracoboars...

So are you just trying to repress my feelings on this game, for the small reason of raising your post count?

I have the same right to say "I like the game, please don't change it by reducing my Damage, or increasing the number of tics a DoT does damage, or making me choose a stance to 'heal' or 'fight'.

I read almost every thread in this category and in the Quest category.

There are some threads that just...get my goat.

The same thing happens to you, as your past posting proves...

So, I will post something critical or contrary or something that helps others as I please (or as Alla pleases)...



____________________________
Over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.

Barack Obama

Laen - 105 Dru
Haam - 105 Sk
Laosha - 105 Shammy
Lutan - 105 Bard
#6 Jun 10 2005 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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Snippet from SOE's description of the warrior class:
Quote:
Warriors are often the cornerstone of a good group, providing a strong defense while also dealing heavy damage to their enemies. Warriors fare poorly when adventuring alone, and are an excellent choice for those who enjoy grouping and taking the front line in battle.

My warrior was my first toon and I think he's great. I read all the class descriptions, so I knew going in that he wouldn't be able to solo well. That's alright because we are the baseline definition of a tank. We are a pure team player in the game. We require others to provide healing and damage, and in exchange we absorb more damage for the group than any other class thanks to our melee mitigation.

I agree sometimes it's hard to find a group these days, and when you can't it can be frustrating. But I think some other classes have a lot more to complain about than we do.
#8 Jun 10 2005 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Honestly,
that crap gets so old...if you dont like his thread go post elsewhere.
i mean really if you have nothing helpfull to say why in the world would you post. all your doing is wasting your time and everyone elses for that matter. or your just trying to get that post extra under your belt.

oh and for the record not everyone sits on these posts all day maybe (this might be a little hard for you to understand) some people dont see every class "complaint" thread. or every "returning player" thread.


Edited, Fri Jun 10 01:35:38 2005 by pfunkman



Hmm,
I think someone just wasted their time.
____________________________
Over the last 15 months, we've traveled to every corner of the United States. I've now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.

Barack Obama

Laen - 105 Dru
Haam - 105 Sk
Laosha - 105 Shammy
Lutan - 105 Bard
#9 Jun 10 2005 at 1:39 AM Rating: Default
Warriors are tanks they are not soloers.............want a soloing melee class play a ranger or SK......
#10 Jun 10 2005 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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elorianBLAH wrote:
Warriors are tanks they are not soloers.............want a soloing melee class play a ranger or SK......
Smiley: laugh Soloing melee class? For a ranger, it's only at level 59 after an assload of AAs, and for an SK, it's just plain inpractical after about level 20.

If you want to play a class capable of soloing, give up on playing a melee class (beastlord is one slight exception).

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#11 Jun 10 2005 at 2:07 AM Rating: Default
Soloing and SK up to 65 isn't hard at all.....it might take longer but it's not impossible.

erm I guess I should restate my point.........soloing a melee class is impossible........soloing a hybrid is hard......but doable(unless your a beast....then it's EZPZ!!!)
#12 Jun 10 2005 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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The new potions (as they are on test server) might help out a lot with melee soloing abilities.
#13 Jun 10 2005 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
There is nothing to Fix...The Warrior class was never designed to be played as a soloable class....Smiley: deadhorse
#14 Jun 10 2005 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Warriors will never be a solo class just like clerics have no bussiness soloing. They are designed to be a team, with the advancement of Driuds and Shaman as primary healers, Warrior class has more options.
#15 Jun 10 2005 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
Solo Warrior is an oxymoron.
#16 Jun 10 2005 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Solo Warrior is an oxymoron


Oxymoron huh? and all this time i thought it was just plain ol' moron. Smiley: lol
#17 Jun 10 2005 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
and all this time i thought it was just plain ol' moron.

Who you callin moron! At level 56 my int/wis is all the way up to 80! We is smart!

Edited, Fri Jun 10 11:26:50 2005 by JoltinJoe
#18 Jun 10 2005 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
Gave me a good chuckle Joue...rate up.
#19 Jun 10 2005 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
... The problem is the obvious pulling exploits. A quick popping disc that massively reduces hate but also reduces incoming damage would be the best way. Maybe give it some riposte capablities as well.


Quote:
The duration of this disc would be 10 min reusable every 30 min.


I forgot to mention, if u retarget anything, u break /disc duel lock. Being able to pull singles once every 30 min should not be game breaking. Would also add to Warrior utility. I feel Warriors should be able to pull effectively under the right circumstances. Since you tank GoD's, why shouldnt you be able to pull it too? And no, I dont think that you would be treading on Monk/SK/Bard pulling due to the once every 30 min limitation.

Quote:
Warriors fare poorly when adventuring alone, and are an excellent choice for those who enjoy grouping and taking the front line in battle.


There is a huge thread about this on the SoE Warrior board. Talk is that they are implementing ideas to improve Warrior soloability. So its coming whether you like it or not. This thread is an attempt to brainstorm ideas (I'm an SK btw). There is no doubt in my mind, that if you guys (speaking to Warriors) could solo effectively, you would never argue the point (and quite possibly enjoy it).

Quote:
Taunt tables. I have brought up the fact that taunt tables need to be introduced to the taunting classes. Warriors need to be at the top of that table. SK’s, Pally’s, Rangers would fall in afterwards in some order.


I know most use Bazu Bellow, but upgrading taunt to reestablish agro after using this disc would be paramount (if used in a raid setting to pull named). The only tabling that I know of Taunt is limiting the skill to the various classes. Either up the cap for taunt (Warriors), or scale it using a table.

Quote:
Raise the DS Cap ~ Regen Cap


DS only works if your being pounded on. So its situational. Soloing, chances are that slow is not going to be available. High DS would improve DPS significantly with a /disc duel.

Regen is the same way. Course, all this would come through itemization. If you got 70% mitigation going, having a set of soloing gear with high DS/Regen would go alot farther.
Quote:
do you really want me to be able to solo vindi?

..yes..

Edited, Fri Jun 10 11:53:52 2005 by Necrophobe
#20 Jun 10 2005 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want to solo go play something else. EQ is not designed to be a solo game. While it does provide some aspect of it, it is no means the majority.


Every class should be able to tank, heal, crowd control, dps, and solo all the same. Smiley: rolleyes




Classes are different for a reason. In this difference some will be better at things than others ie solo. Class balance isn't about giving all the classes the same abilities. Rather it's about making each class equal in abilities. One class will always be better in some areas but lack in something that another class excels at. It's the differences that make each class unique.

Smiley: deadhorse
#21 Jun 10 2005 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
And MentalFrog has hit it on the head. Smiley: bowdown

Winner of this topics cupiedoll.

#22 Jun 10 2005 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, I think warriors who demand soloing features should be fixed...keep their spawn from the gene pool Smiley: wink.


'fixed' as in...well...you get the idea...

#23 Jun 10 2005 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Warriors will never be a solo class just like clerics have no bussiness soloing. They are designed to be a team, with the advancement of Driuds and Shaman as primary healers, Warrior class has more options.


I agree Warriors were intended and designed to be part of a group. If they improve Warrior's ability I dont think they are going to make them anywhere near as good as Necro, Bard, BL, Druid, etc. If SOE enables Warriors to solo just a little better than they can as it stands now at least it would be a somewhat viable option for them during times when they cant find a group.

I play a 70 BL and while I CAN solo for xp/aa xp it certainly isnt nearly as good as when I am grouped. There really isnt anywhere I can go where the xp is going to be better solo than it would be if I get a group.

So if it is ok for BLs, Necros, Druids, Rangers, SK's, Wizards, Enchanter's, Bards, and Shaman to solo why is it such a blasphemy for Clerics, Warriors, Monks and Pally's to be able to do the same? Dont get me wrong I dont think these classes should solo like a Necro or Shaman, but as it stands can these classes really solo at all?

Everyone on here has been screaming about how EQ is a group based game and it is but seems to me the Majority of classes have at least some limited amount of soloablity at most if not all levels and only the four listed above dont.

As long as SOE doesnt make it so that it is more beneficial for a Warrior to solo vs grouping I really dont see the problem.
#24 Jun 10 2005 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Back when the EQ was first released the only classes that were designed to Solo were the pet classes and the Druid. Post 50 Bards, Rangers, and Wizards began to be able to solo effectively. But for a Warrior to be able to solo his DPS would need to be greatly increased, his natural healing greatly increased, and his Damage migration would need to be greatly increased. this would allow him the ability to handle mobs withing a couple of levels of his solo also the would give him the ability to take on mobs 10-20 levels higher then him in a group.
#25 Jun 10 2005 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Guys (and Gals), its not a matter of if a Warrior should solo. SoE says its gonna happen. Soooo, are you gonna let them make a decision of how?

I address the DPS, Self heal and Mitigation issue in my original topic. I'm wanting tweaking, troubleshooting or even discounting the feasability.

A soloing ability based on agro would be totally unique. Bards use their speed (Charm/Dot), Pet classes use their pets, SK's use taps/procs, Pally's use stun and mad DPS vs undead, Rangers use standoff, Chanters use charm.

The only thing so far that I've seen useful is the remark about taunt tables (its not really a solo ability requirement). So I will probably remove it.

What else?
#26 Jun 10 2005 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
there are too many inherent flaws with this. it's too exploitable in too many raid situations. for that matter, there's no reason why warriors should be able to solo vindi. what warriors need to solo better is better regen not better mitigation.
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