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New gay friendly guild!Follow

#177 Jul 30 2004 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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86 posts
Quote:
Becuase you were to nice to the salesman.


Actually, because it was the best deal out there.

A vaccuum cleaner that last for 20+ years, can convert to a rug cleaner, or a scrubbing system for tile/wood floors, all for less than the price of the disposable vaccuums, plus a rug cleaner, plus a tile/wood floor scrubber.

Plus, when I didn't need my Kirby anymore, it had a trade-in value. Try trading in that plastic one you buy at K-Mart.

BTW, way to hijack the thread to discuss vaccuum cleaners and VCRs. :)
#178 Jul 30 2004 at 11:39 AM Rating: Default
Sorry bout the hijack. Back to topic now, bring it on.
#179 Jul 30 2004 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
eqrangershawn wrote:
Lol, where did I say I hate em? I simply do not think it's right and that I do not want my children exposed to it. A child see's and does. Most of what they learn for the rest of their life is learned in childhood.

You obviously dont care about the social implications on your children should they ever end up Gay. I would call it a major failure to raise a child that will be scorned and in depression most of there adult life.


So, what if one of your children grew up and told you he was gay...would you scorn him (as you are doing here...You would be concerned about the scorn they would get and yet you are the one doing the scorning here, interesting, eh?)? Would you not allow your other children and /or grandchildren to associate with him? Because, of couse, you seem to think that kids will do what they see.

Or, would it not be better to teach your children that there are diverse ways of life and one person's lifestyle may not be suitable to them but that does not make it wrong?

I have one for you... I have 4 kids and my mother in law IS gay. How do I treat that? Not let them go around their grandma? Obviously not. they know garndma and they know what she is.
I love my mother in law and have seen the biggots that treat her poorly...believe me, my mother in law's gay friends are a MUCH better crowd for my kids to grow up around than those who want to tell her she is wrong.

As for social implications...no, I care about the kind of person my kids grow up to be, not what sex they are sexually attracted to. Every choice is going to have a consequence, some more than others, but those are their choices to make. If they are good, caring people then that is what counts, let them make whatever choices they like.
#180 Jul 30 2004 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
LOL And as for Kirby Vaccums...We have my grandmother's Kirby, which she did buy from a little travelling salesman...in the late 70s. it still works...better than the department store hoover that my wife and I had at the time (and which was our 4th one since we got married)...so even your little attempt at humor falls short. You are killing me eqrangershawn. This has been a fun Friday.

Oh, and Krummy, I am defiantely #2 from your above post. :-)

Edited, Fri Jul 30 12:53:34 2004 by lhuffman
#181 Jul 30 2004 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
In reply to the children thing, no they are my children and I would never disown them or scorn them myself. But knowing the pain they would have to endure is more than I care to think about. I would be dissapointed. Sorry if it sounds harsh but I would be. I would try not to express is to them, but it would hurt me a lot.

I used to think it was a genetic thing, but as I observe more of my own generation I see that genetics is not the only reason some people are gay. A lot of it has to do with social interaction and peers. Among the many gay people I have know closer to my age they were swayed by social acceptance or lack of. Pretty much the way you are brought up.
#182 Jul 30 2004 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
eqrangershawn wrote:
In reply to the children thing, no they are my children and I would never disown them or scorn them myself. But knowing the pain they would have to endure is more than I care to think about. I would be dissapointed. Sorry if it sounds harsh but I would be. I would try not to express is to them, but it would hurt me a lot.

I used to think it was a genetic thing, but as I observe more of my own generation I see that genetics is not the only reason some people are gay. A lot of it has to do with social interaction and peers. Among the many gay people I have know closer to my age they were swayed by social acceptance or lack of. Pretty much the way you are brought up.


Ok fair enough. That is the best comment you have made on this thread today, and it finally has shown that you have more than just a knee-jerk I-think-gay is wrong kind of mentality. Not that I agree with you, but it is your feeling and that makes it compeltely valid to you.

I do not want to keep pouncing on you...and I hope I have not offended you.

Now go and kill those gnomes...but watch it, they really do hit hard. :-)
#183 Jul 30 2004 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
Dont know why I am so feisty today.
#184 Jul 30 2004 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
LOL same here...must be the moon or something. :-)

been fun trading barbs though.
#185 Jul 30 2004 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
Ok eqrangeretc. I'll put you down as a #4 and we're done.:)
#186 Aug 01 2004 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
Quote from the Honorable Ihuffman (who generally tries to be a voice of reason on this board) : "Hmmm...while I am not gay, I would much rather be called fa**ot over bigot. All that implies is that I have made a choice to sexually prefer my same gender."

I think the point that is being missed / ignored / glossed over by many people revolves around the idea of "choice"

Sexual orientation is not a choice. People are what they are: heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual.

Gay and lesbian people did not choose to be homosexual. Straight people did not choose to be heterosexual.

Please think about this: Would any sane, rational person ever choose for themselves this sort of predjudice and abuse?

/em steps down from soap box.
#187 Aug 01 2004 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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520 posts
**Sneaks up behind the post and Assassin Strike's it**

And STAY dead!
#188 Aug 01 2004 at 1:31 PM Rating: Default
AHAHAHA this is funny.

WTF would you make a gay friendly guild?? It's a game not a college club leave your real life issues/politics and otehr crap at the login screen. You don't nor shouldn't bring real life crap into the game.
#189 Aug 01 2004 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
I am really getting sick of seeing ths topic. We all have our own opinions, and you can't change that. In reality, it makes no differenece if ou're gay or straight.

Whenever I see threads like this, I am reminded of an episode of "Seinfeld" where the main characters are believed to be gay do to their anticts during an interview for an article in the newspaper. This episode stands out to me because it shows that what we do is often the steriotypical gay behavior. The main reason that the main characters defend themselves so long is not because they care about it, but because everyone else does.

I believe that the reason this guild was called gay friendly, is so that people won't be afraid of discriminitory remarks and behavior. It doesn't mean that they only allow gays, or favor them. Let's just forget it, and get on with our lives.
#190 Aug 19 2004 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
To tell you the truth, as a gay man, I was very unconfortable with my guild on Drinal. Most of the people were great, kind and generous. But there was a noticable minority that had no problem making homophobic comments, and no one said anything. I would say things like "now let's be open minded" and I would get flamed. I wasn't about to tell anyone that I was gay. So I just quietly left.

As a "gay american", especially if you like the social/bantering element, it is much more fun for me to be in an open gay guild.

Pizmo
level 16 Enchanter
Luclin
#191 Aug 20 2004 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
Wow what a topic. Well I just had to post here because it seems everyone else has.

#1 I know for a fact that this is not the first 'gay and lesbian guild'. Feronia Vie has at 'least' one and so do a couple other servers. So it's not like this is a new thing.

#2 Someone mentioned how it was insulting to put **** with gay and black. I agree with you to a point but I think the writer's point was that all of these people are hated by some people somewhere.

#3 Now I think everyone here has a valid point, pro gay, neutral or against. My personal opinion is that I do not agree with the gay lifestyle, but as long as you don't force your opinions about being gay on me I wont force my opinions about being straight on you. Unfortunately for those who are gay it is (especially right now) a very hot topic and there is allot of anger on both sides of the fence. The gay marriage battles are fueling allot of this anger. Now as much as I could really care less that you make a gay guild I think at this point it is poor form to flaunt it being the anger that surrounds the subject. I would hope that the person who posted the original post understands that even if he/she is doing this for the right reason that they WILL be harassed and have allot of anger thrown at them. It is either poor timing on their part or they are trying to fuel the debate that already exists around the world. Now 'If' the later is true then I do think it is in very poor form to do so in a gaming atmosphere where people are trying to put away real life for a while and play a game.

Now as far as the comments about the fact that real game IS a part of the EQ gaming experience.... I agree with you whole heartedly BUT for those who are soloers, not in a guild or in a role-play/ no real life talk allowed guild this is not true. Rarely in my hours of solo play do I hear people shouting/oocing/or auctioning their real life. So in that sense they may be infringing on those players experience if they 'over-vocalize' their standing, because it CAN and WILL cause heated, non game related arguments in public channels. That being said there is nothing wrong with advertising your guild.... but being this is a sensitive subject.... do it tactfully.

Lastly I want to say that there are some people out there, myself included that disagree with the gay lifestyle and do not like being forced to believe that it is 'ok' or 'normal' to be gay. It could be for whatever reason's (personal, biblical or otherwise) but just as you have a right to your opinion we have a right to ours. And remember that gay people have it pretty good when they are allowed to make a gay guild but others are (I'm pretty sure) are not allowed to have a straight guild.... though the result of both is the same... anger and hatred.

I hope what I have said is not offensive to anyone and if it was I apologize, that was not my goal.
#192REDACTED, Posted: Aug 20 2004 at 12:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You know their is always people that always bring thier political or personal issues and always try to enforce it on people who dont want it. Please keep the Gay **** to yourself.
#193 Aug 20 2004 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
Amen Squishy, i agree with everything you just wrote.

One more small thing that i would like to add is that i dont agree with gay parent's adopting a child either. Not only does it push the child in that direction but it is NOT natural. If it WERE natural then homosexual's should genetically be able to reproduce with one another.

Also the word Homophobic, phobic meaning "fear of", i dont believe that is correct terminology. To those that are homophobic, those that will admit to it anyway. Do you actually fear homosexual's? I dont believe that is the case.

You have your opinions, I have mine.

#194 Aug 23 2004 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
This has to be one of the worst threads I have seen. You are on-line people, you dont know who is who, male female, gay straight, black white. What does it matter, it is make believe.

Dev
#195 Sep 23 2006 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
I played in a gay-friendly guild in Everquest called Mystic Alliance for years. I stopped playing Everquest when EQII came out. There's a Mystic Alliance guild there, too, and at least three gay-friendly guilds on the Crushbone server alone. I wouldn't join an "all-gay" or "all-anything" guild, but a gay-friendly guild shouldn't be a big deal.

Online game warns gay-lesbian guild
by Daniel Terdiman

Longtime virtual gamer Sara Andrews didn't know she would cause much of a ruckus when she began recruiting new members of her "World of Warcraft" virtual gaming guild, which mostly caters to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender players.

In recruitment messages she posted on WoW, she wrote that the guild was not "'glbt only,' but we are 'glbt friendly.'"

To WoW publisher Blizzard Entertainment, however, Andrews' message was out of bounds. The Irvine, Calif.-based game publisher said her recruiting was a violation of the game's harassment policy, specifically the section of that policy regarding sexual orientation. Andrews was quickly warned in an e-mail to stop recruiting inside the game and to take all such efforts to forums outside WoW's virtual world. Andrews was also warned that if she didn't stop recruiting for the guild inside WoW, she risked being banned from the game.

In essence, Andrews and gay and lesbian rights advocates charge, Blizzard was trying to keep a lid on harassment in its gaming world by blocking players from doing things that could prompt other people to harass them.

"Their (terms of service) statement was clearly crafted to protect the GLBT community," said Ron Meiners, a longtime virtual worlds consultant who has served as a community manager for companies like Ubisoft and There.com. "And I think they wanted to basically protect them in this instance, too. But they seem to have overstepped what was appropriate."

Andrews said she thinks Blizzard, or at least the game master (company employees who control game play and make decisions about low-level controversies) who issued the warning, wasn't being fair. The harassment policy specifically prohibits language that "insultingly refers to any aspect of sexual orientation pertaining to themselves or others." Since Andrews was hardly insulting herself, she couldn't understand how or why the harassment policy was being applied to her.

"I wasn't sure that it was Blizzard that felt this way at first," she said. "I kind of felt like a bad (game manager) took care of the situation poorly. But the more I see Blizzard backing up the decision, the more I believe Blizzard to be handling the situation poorly."

With more than 5.5 million players since it was launched in 2004, WoW is arguably the most successful online fantasy game in America. So how it defines gaming rules and says what people can and cannot do can have a wide-ranging impact in virtual communities.

A Blizzard spokesman said it was only trying to enforce a policy designed to protect all WoW members from being harassed. And in fairness, in a gaming world where many players are young, male and prone to hurling insults, that the company wants to avoid potential problems makes sense.

"We encourage community building among our players with others of similar interests, and we understand that guilds are one of the primary ways to forge these communities," the company said in a statement. "However, topics related to sensitive real-world subjects--such as religious, sexual or political preference, for example--have had a tendency to result in communication between players that often breaks down into harassment."

In an interview with CNET News.com, Blizzard public relations manager Gil Shif said that the company is reviewing the harassment policy and plans to modify it in the near future. The policy will likely be broadened, Shif said, to go beyond limiting prohibited language to that which is insulting and to include "any language that could result in situations where players are going to break down into harassing debate. It's just not appropriate for a gaming environment."

To Andrews, however, Blizzard's position doesn't hold water in a game that provides keyboard commands that allow characters to say things like, "Homogenized? No way, I like the ladies!"

"They state that they don't want mention of sexuality in their game, for fear it may cause people to harass others," Andrews said. "Yet they have things like this in the game already that (were) put there by them."

To some observers of online games like WoW, Blizzard's decision to warn Andrews gets harassment protection backward.

"It's often very hard to try to guide communities in positive directions," Meiners said. "I think they failed here. Cleary the issue blew up, causing more community difficulty. And I also think they sent a bad message to that community."

Some gay rights advocates said Blizzard's theory that gay-oriented groups assigning such labels to themselves might invite harassment is the wrong way to go.

"We recognize that stopping harassment is extremely important," said Brian Chase, a staff attorney at Lambda Legal, an organization that promotes civil rights for the GLBT community. "But the way to stop the harassment of gay people is to stop the harassers, not insist gay people be quiet."

In any case, Andrews' guild, Oz, is hardly the only gay-oriented guild in WoW specifically, or in the broader world of online games.

According to Alexander Sliwinski, who was first to write about Andrews' run-in with Blizzard, for In Newsweekly, a gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender newsweekly, WoW itself has eight GLBT guilds. Other online games, such as "EverQuest II," "City of Heroes" and "Final Fantasy XI" have them as well.

Players "form whatever associations and social groups they would like" as long as they adhere to the company's rules of conduct, said Chris Kramer, public relations director for "EverQuest II" publisher Sony Online Entertainment.

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Those rules state that players agree not to transmit language that is "unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, that may be invasive of another's right of privacy or publicity, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable."

The problem with parsing the meaning of such wording, especially in cases like Andrews', however, is that it leaves much to the discretion of individual game managers.

Blizzard, of course, said that it is only trying to keep individual players or groups from being subject to harassment by others and that Andrews was only warned to stop recruiting for her guild in-game.

It's an odd argument, say people like Meiners, Chase and San Francisco attorney Jason Schultz.

"I think it's unfortunate that Blizzard has chosen to punish the very people who are discriminated against under their supposed 'harassment policy,'" said Schultz. "***** folk (have) always been told to hide themselves and who they really are in the real world. I would hope that in these new online worlds, people wouldn't be punished for being honest about themselves."


#196 Sep 23 2006 at 7:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
So... you bumped a two year old thread... why? Smiley: dubious
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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