Does an EQ client crash put yours and other lives at risk? Hmmm, nope.
Does a car crash? Yes sir.
Maybe that's why there are different standards there?
You say I fail to understand that clever analogy. I say the analogy is flawed to begin with.
Cars have plenty of design flaws. I once had a Ford Taurus that had a cup holder that slid out from under the CD player. If you put a cup in there, the CD player would be blocked so you couldn't push any of the buttons or read the display.
At least SOE can patch their flaws in a relatively short time. With a car, I'd have to wait 'til the next model year and hope they changed the design.
None of us is expected to fix any of the issues ourselves. When was the last time you wrote a patch for EQ?
Edited, Thu Jun 3 16:01:53 2004 by OnePrime
- Forums
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- You can't fault this....
You can't fault this....Follow
Yanari the Puissant wrote:
The powers that be at SOE made a conscious decision to ignore (or grossly underplay) the validity of that feedback and push out the changes, though they were fully aware of how buggy they were.
Please quote your source for this statement.
Scholar
24 posts
Wow.
I'm impressed.
A lot of people here were either just too hyped up to fully understand what I said earlier, or I was just being far to out-of-this-world with my explanation.
Not once. Not one time. Did i ever specifically say I expected ANYONE to do the dev teams, or anyone elses job.
Let me get this straight. I'm a subscriber, and - I - am supposed to do my vendor's JOB and "test" the problem.
I never said that it was your obligation to test and report problems. They pay people to do that for them. Maybe I wasn't entirely clear on that. What I mean-and I will be as plain and simple as possible-is that you cannot, and must not simply complain. To use an analogy, or several:
Can you go to a mechanic and simply say, "My car is broken. Make it go!"?
Can you call a plumber and say "There is water on my bathroom floor. Make with the fixin'!"
Can you go to the doctors as say "I am not well, i will not explain any of my symptoms. Fix me!"
No, no, no.. You cannot simply say "I am stuck in the wall.. Fit it."
It is a cop-out!
What I mean, plain and simple, is that when you experience a problem in ANY piece of software, be it Everquest or whatever it is that runs NORAD, it is your duty to take note of what it is that caused the problem.
Did you zone in and get stuck in the floor.
Did you get summoned by a mob and no cannot move.
Did you cast gate and ended up in DAoC?
Whatever the case may be you must take note of these things and the bring them to the developers. They must have some kind of information.
Take microsoft for example. A bad one but still.
That little window that pops up in windows. "Your program has performed an illegal operation!" And there is a small text box underneath with a bunch of code and a memory dump. And then a Send or Don't Send button. They put that there more than likely because people would call for tech support and say "My computer crashed, fix it!" The guy on the other side would ask "Well what happened?" To which he would recieve the responce "I don't know." He would then reply "Well what message did you get?" And he would finally hear "I dunno, how would i know, just fix it!" And after muting the phone, cursing your name, and his own poor luck he would proceed with the long and arduous process of resolving whatever problems you happen to have. If possible.
Now look at how much easier that process would be if you just sent them the information regarding that code snippet in the text box and the memory dump. They can narrow the problem down if not get to the bottom of it right away.
Plain and simply. You aren't here to do the dev teams job and I never once, NOT ONCE, said you had to. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. But I will say that SoE developers rely on you, nay DEPEND on you to provide them with some useful information as to what your problem is.
I will reaffirm. People who whine and complain about a problem cannot solve it. Only exacerbate it.
People who take fate in their hands and acutally try and come up with some good, hardcore information that is acutally useful to the devteam can.
Well, acutally i'm wrong, people who complain will at least alert the devteam to a problem, no doubt. However, other than that they do not in any way, shape, or form point the developers anywhere near the solution.
I never once said that either. So again with the words in my mouth. Please stop playing that game. It doesn't work. Please re-read my post.
I was merely making a point that now a days I can't sponser a starving child for that much. Did I say exactly those words, no. However, my point in simplicity is you pay so little for something as wonderfully fun as Everquest. It does nothing for society. It doesn't help starving children. But still the devteam does what it can to make your playing experience a good one. I merely think that it's unfair of all of us to dump on them because of some bugs in their code. Look what they're trying to do. Give us entertainment. You want an argument. The next time you go to the movies and are not TOTALLY AMAZED by what you watched try and get your money back. If it wasn't directed the way you wanted, or if you think it lacked some important plot elements or was too plot heavy, go write the director and ask him or her to please have it redone to your standards. I'm not going to go so far as to say they're doing their best. Because there are alot of problems that have slipped past them that I think they should have been able to catch. But to quote another poster.
It just doesn't make any sence for us to expect perfection. Nothing is ever perfect. I just bought a carton of sour milk today, and i had to go through two cartons of eggs before I found one without at least one cracked egg. But such is life. I just move on to the next carton, grab another bag.
I'm not saying I'm simply turning the other cheek. Maybe just hoping that we can all be patient and do our best to help out the devteam in any way we can to solve the problems that we have to make our experience the best it can be.
To Yanari the Puissant: I'm not, nor have I ever defended SoE's devteam or it's shoddy work. And not once did I ever try and belittle ANYONE who would not defend them. That is a complete untruth but that's okay. As I said i may have been unclear so I am here again to rectify.
When I mentioned the Test server as being a very small portion of the EQ community. I was meaning that there are problems that are going to go on in Everquest in general that may not happen to but a select few. They may not even, or ever, happen on the test server. (I mentioned test because it is after all the "test" server) I would, and did assume however that the developers would have their fingers on the pulse of that particular nation and are sorely mistaken to target all their research their. If you are right and they are selectively ignoring bug reports then shame on them. However, I am, to quote you, belittleing those who do nothing but repeat over and over "it's broke make it go." To be honest I have nothing against these people. They do not get in my face, or ruin my day in any way. I am happy to let them play the way they do until the game has run its course and the servers are shut down.
My message here is a cry out for all of us on every server to rise above the discordant cries of "it's broke. make it go!" Let us all step up and acutally take a tiny bit of responsibility in our hands and acutally try and help out!
I'm not, nor will I ever say it's your job. You don't have to and nobody is expecting you to. Things would probably go much more smoothly if we all did. Take part in the community that you all work so hard to build. There are more players than there are developers. We can all do a very small part.
So.
In closing.
Ralston: I've noticed you're on prexus. My server. I've probably seen you because the second I noticed your name I had that familiar feeling I'd seen it. And not on the side of a box of catfood. I don't mean to, nor have I ever meant, to step on your toes, put you down, or just plain shoot down your opinions. They're all valid and I do believe we all reserve the right to speak our piece to the powers that reign above the game we all play and pay for. I'm merely saying that we all shouldn't be so passive-agressive about it. For the umpteenth time I'll reiterate that saying "Fix it or i'll quit." really doesn't solve anything. Merely telling someone something is wrong is hardly as good as telling them why you've noticed it happening.
I'm sure you've had the privaledge of having your significant other become angry with you and refuse to tell you why. "If you don't know I'm not telling you" is a classic. But it doesn't help you clear up the problem, and it doesn't really make you feel any better about yourself, him/her, or the relationship in general. It's better to communicate your problems. And on that bit or rhetoric I will say thank you for reading my post and if it's all the same I hope to see you in game sometime soon.
To Yanari the Puissant: Ours was a simple case of misunderanding which can happen to anyone and it's all good. Like I said above. I don't put down those who don't defend, or ask anyone to just mire in mediocrity and accept what they pay for. It wouldn't be fair of me. Especially since you in the end run do have to pay for it, same as I. Thank you for reading my post. Stay safe and have fun out there.
I'm impressed.
A lot of people here were either just too hyped up to fully understand what I said earlier, or I was just being far to out-of-this-world with my explanation.
Not once. Not one time. Did i ever specifically say I expected ANYONE to do the dev teams, or anyone elses job.
Ralston wrote:
Let me get this straight. I'm a subscriber, and - I - am supposed to do my vendor's JOB and "test" the problem.
I never said that it was your obligation to test and report problems. They pay people to do that for them. Maybe I wasn't entirely clear on that. What I mean-and I will be as plain and simple as possible-is that you cannot, and must not simply complain. To use an analogy, or several:
Can you go to a mechanic and simply say, "My car is broken. Make it go!"?
Can you call a plumber and say "There is water on my bathroom floor. Make with the fixin'!"
Can you go to the doctors as say "I am not well, i will not explain any of my symptoms. Fix me!"
No, no, no.. You cannot simply say "I am stuck in the wall.. Fit it."
It is a cop-out!
What I mean, plain and simple, is that when you experience a problem in ANY piece of software, be it Everquest or whatever it is that runs NORAD, it is your duty to take note of what it is that caused the problem.
Did you zone in and get stuck in the floor.
Did you get summoned by a mob and no cannot move.
Did you cast gate and ended up in DAoC?
Whatever the case may be you must take note of these things and the bring them to the developers. They must have some kind of information.
Take microsoft for example. A bad one but still.
That little window that pops up in windows. "Your program has performed an illegal operation!" And there is a small text box underneath with a bunch of code and a memory dump. And then a Send or Don't Send button. They put that there more than likely because people would call for tech support and say "My computer crashed, fix it!" The guy on the other side would ask "Well what happened?" To which he would recieve the responce "I don't know." He would then reply "Well what message did you get?" And he would finally hear "I dunno, how would i know, just fix it!" And after muting the phone, cursing your name, and his own poor luck he would proceed with the long and arduous process of resolving whatever problems you happen to have. If possible.
Now look at how much easier that process would be if you just sent them the information regarding that code snippet in the text box and the memory dump. They can narrow the problem down if not get to the bottom of it right away.
Plain and simply. You aren't here to do the dev teams job and I never once, NOT ONCE, said you had to. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. But I will say that SoE developers rely on you, nay DEPEND on you to provide them with some useful information as to what your problem is.
I will reaffirm. People who whine and complain about a problem cannot solve it. Only exacerbate it.
People who take fate in their hands and acutally try and come up with some good, hardcore information that is acutally useful to the devteam can.
Well, acutally i'm wrong, people who complain will at least alert the devteam to a problem, no doubt. However, other than that they do not in any way, shape, or form point the developers anywhere near the solution.
Ralston wrote:
Then, we have the people who apparently ascribe to the viewpoint that because the game only costs $.60 per day that paying customers should be okay with bugs and such.
I never once said that either. So again with the words in my mouth. Please stop playing that game. It doesn't work. Please re-read my post.
I was merely making a point that now a days I can't sponser a starving child for that much. Did I say exactly those words, no. However, my point in simplicity is you pay so little for something as wonderfully fun as Everquest. It does nothing for society. It doesn't help starving children. But still the devteam does what it can to make your playing experience a good one. I merely think that it's unfair of all of us to dump on them because of some bugs in their code. Look what they're trying to do. Give us entertainment. You want an argument. The next time you go to the movies and are not TOTALLY AMAZED by what you watched try and get your money back. If it wasn't directed the way you wanted, or if you think it lacked some important plot elements or was too plot heavy, go write the director and ask him or her to please have it redone to your standards. I'm not going to go so far as to say they're doing their best. Because there are alot of problems that have slipped past them that I think they should have been able to catch. But to quote another poster.
OnePrime wrote:
So for that $.60 a day, you expect perfect code for a highly complex piece of software that will work flawlessly over a global network for approximately 400,000 different people across a large variety of system configurations and 100% uptime.
It just doesn't make any sence for us to expect perfection. Nothing is ever perfect. I just bought a carton of sour milk today, and i had to go through two cartons of eggs before I found one without at least one cracked egg. But such is life. I just move on to the next carton, grab another bag.
I'm not saying I'm simply turning the other cheek. Maybe just hoping that we can all be patient and do our best to help out the devteam in any way we can to solve the problems that we have to make our experience the best it can be.
To Yanari the Puissant: I'm not, nor have I ever defended SoE's devteam or it's shoddy work. And not once did I ever try and belittle ANYONE who would not defend them. That is a complete untruth but that's okay. As I said i may have been unclear so I am here again to rectify.
When I mentioned the Test server as being a very small portion of the EQ community. I was meaning that there are problems that are going to go on in Everquest in general that may not happen to but a select few. They may not even, or ever, happen on the test server. (I mentioned test because it is after all the "test" server) I would, and did assume however that the developers would have their fingers on the pulse of that particular nation and are sorely mistaken to target all their research their. If you are right and they are selectively ignoring bug reports then shame on them. However, I am, to quote you, belittleing those who do nothing but repeat over and over "it's broke make it go." To be honest I have nothing against these people. They do not get in my face, or ruin my day in any way. I am happy to let them play the way they do until the game has run its course and the servers are shut down.
My message here is a cry out for all of us on every server to rise above the discordant cries of "it's broke. make it go!" Let us all step up and acutally take a tiny bit of responsibility in our hands and acutally try and help out!
I'm not, nor will I ever say it's your job. You don't have to and nobody is expecting you to. Things would probably go much more smoothly if we all did. Take part in the community that you all work so hard to build. There are more players than there are developers. We can all do a very small part.
So.
In closing.
Ralston: I've noticed you're on prexus. My server. I've probably seen you because the second I noticed your name I had that familiar feeling I'd seen it. And not on the side of a box of catfood. I don't mean to, nor have I ever meant, to step on your toes, put you down, or just plain shoot down your opinions. They're all valid and I do believe we all reserve the right to speak our piece to the powers that reign above the game we all play and pay for. I'm merely saying that we all shouldn't be so passive-agressive about it. For the umpteenth time I'll reiterate that saying "Fix it or i'll quit." really doesn't solve anything. Merely telling someone something is wrong is hardly as good as telling them why you've noticed it happening.
I'm sure you've had the privaledge of having your significant other become angry with you and refuse to tell you why. "If you don't know I'm not telling you" is a classic. But it doesn't help you clear up the problem, and it doesn't really make you feel any better about yourself, him/her, or the relationship in general. It's better to communicate your problems. And on that bit or rhetoric I will say thank you for reading my post and if it's all the same I hope to see you in game sometime soon.
To Yanari the Puissant: Ours was a simple case of misunderanding which can happen to anyone and it's all good. Like I said above. I don't put down those who don't defend, or ask anyone to just mire in mediocrity and accept what they pay for. It wouldn't be fair of me. Especially since you in the end run do have to pay for it, same as I. Thank you for reading my post. Stay safe and have fun out there.
Quote:
No where else in the computer world do you find people who defend the programmers for releasing completely broken code. Using only the DX9 patch as an example, could anyone possibly imagine that the collision issues weren't noticed during code testing? Would any other producer of software ever send code from test to production in such a state?
I tested the DX9 patch on the Test Server. I also /bugged everything. None of the things I bugged, nor the people in the same zone ******** about the same thing, were fixed. Every single one of them went into live. Sad.
Grady
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machin ery of night.
We all know they have a test server. We know the Dx 9 patch introduced bad issues. I don't see a need to "prove" SOE ignored valid complains from test: even if not a single player petitioned from test, SOE is responsible for testing their own stuff (free player testing is just free frosting on the cake).
Just like the free CS the players were (are) willing to offer in the guide program, SOE manages to misuse the free labor the community offers to the point we may as well not do it at all.
The Dx 9 stuff just makes SOE look bad because it lends itself to conspiracy theories that SOE is forcing us to upgrade to make us "ready" for some other product. I don't beleve this, but it shouldn't even be an issue: if SOE makes an upgrade it should actually improve something. This Dx 9 patch has introduced major problems for relatively minor benefits. Why didn't they catch this on test? Obviously, they knew. If they didn't their testing is extremely poor. Why then did they go implement this anyhow?
If we are complaining, I would just like an answer on elf beard color. Since Luclin, I have had a beard color bar on my /facepick command but it does nothing (always remains white). I petition from time to time to see if (a) I am, indeed, supposed to be able to color my beard, it is a bug, and hope they fix it or (b) it is not ment to be colored and the existance of the beard color selector itself is the bug.
Although this is minor, they have had years and I've never gotten a reply of any kind. I'm not demanding they fix this: they have plenty of other stuff to worry about, but it wouldn't take much effort to just make this decision. If there has been an official word on this one way or another, I'd like to know. Over the years, I have tried /petition, the SOE website feedback to the developers, I even posted a question on this board (this is way back on the old boards) about this. I never recieved a reply nor did anyone on this board say they had heard anything.
This isn't a product that is barely turning a profit - Eq is insanely profitable. That is why everybody and their brother are jumping into the MMORPG arena. Eventually, SOE is going to have to turn more of that profit back into supporting their game or else some competetor will. That's capitalism. Yes, people are loyal because they have alot personally invested in the game, so there will be a lag between when people should leave and when they do. SOE has gotten more second chances then any other game ever will. SOE has some chances left. Do the right thing.
Just like the free CS the players were (are) willing to offer in the guide program, SOE manages to misuse the free labor the community offers to the point we may as well not do it at all.
The Dx 9 stuff just makes SOE look bad because it lends itself to conspiracy theories that SOE is forcing us to upgrade to make us "ready" for some other product. I don't beleve this, but it shouldn't even be an issue: if SOE makes an upgrade it should actually improve something. This Dx 9 patch has introduced major problems for relatively minor benefits. Why didn't they catch this on test? Obviously, they knew. If they didn't their testing is extremely poor. Why then did they go implement this anyhow?
If we are complaining, I would just like an answer on elf beard color. Since Luclin, I have had a beard color bar on my /facepick command but it does nothing (always remains white). I petition from time to time to see if (a) I am, indeed, supposed to be able to color my beard, it is a bug, and hope they fix it or (b) it is not ment to be colored and the existance of the beard color selector itself is the bug.
Although this is minor, they have had years and I've never gotten a reply of any kind. I'm not demanding they fix this: they have plenty of other stuff to worry about, but it wouldn't take much effort to just make this decision. If there has been an official word on this one way or another, I'd like to know. Over the years, I have tried /petition, the SOE website feedback to the developers, I even posted a question on this board (this is way back on the old boards) about this. I never recieved a reply nor did anyone on this board say they had heard anything.
This isn't a product that is barely turning a profit - Eq is insanely profitable. That is why everybody and their brother are jumping into the MMORPG arena. Eventually, SOE is going to have to turn more of that profit back into supporting their game or else some competetor will. That's capitalism. Yes, people are loyal because they have alot personally invested in the game, so there will be a lag between when people should leave and when they do. SOE has gotten more second chances then any other game ever will. SOE has some chances left. Do the right thing.
So, has anyone read the reports from the "summit"?
Can we bury the "will EQ2 kill off EQ1?" question once and for all?
Epics will be upgraded, and there will be also be new super epics to come.
Augments willbecome reusable.
There will be LDoN type missions for soloers.
Elemental+ level items will be obtainable via LDoN merchants.
The need for backflagging will be "replaced somehow".
Calymir runs a guild full of superheros! (We already knew that
Go to eqlive and follow the links and read the reports for your self, its worth the time and effort.
Go here folow the links.
Edited, Tue Jun 8 01:31:46 2004 by Iluien
Can we bury the "will EQ2 kill off EQ1?" question once and for all?
Epics will be upgraded, and there will be also be new super epics to come.
Augments willbecome reusable.
There will be LDoN type missions for soloers.
Elemental+ level items will be obtainable via LDoN merchants.
The need for backflagging will be "replaced somehow".
Calymir runs a guild full of superheros! (We already knew that
Go to eqlive and follow the links and read the reports for your self, its worth the time and effort.
Go here folow the links.
Edited, Tue Jun 8 01:31:46 2004 by Iluien
Very informative. Thanks for the links.
Sobakor..
I wasn't trying to insult you. I was just saying that I disagreed with the idea that it's okay to let issues that affect mass use of a product not be fixed in a timely manner or properly QA'd in the first place just because it's a good bargain.
And by all means.. If you see me in game, gimme a shout :)
I wasn't trying to insult you. I was just saying that I disagreed with the idea that it's okay to let issues that affect mass use of a product not be fixed in a timely manner or properly QA'd in the first place just because it's a good bargain.
And by all means.. If you see me in game, gimme a shout :)
Quote:
Please quote your source for this statement
The last post on this thread talks about Development and Testing as told to a TCH poster at the Fan Faire. You're welcome to dismiss it as gossip or to call her a liar, but if you're waiting for SOE to publish a press release saying "We undertest our patches", you're taking a pretty naive view of things.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
ok this thread is too long so i didnt read the whole thing but from what i saw i get this
there were people ******** that the new expansion was coming out too soon and soe needed to fix the current bugs
so they say the are going to do that
instead of being happy ( or at least quiet) people start ******** about that
wow
there were people ******** that the new expansion was coming out too soon and soe needed to fix the current bugs
so they say the are going to do that
instead of being happy ( or at least quiet) people start ******** about that
wow
sorry had to comment on this part too
wow you must have real bad problems with eq if you are paying 3 times the normal amount for a months fee just to play for a day and 80% of the time you are having problems
wow id quit
and yes i know you were exagerating but come on lets keep it in perspective
and this is the best statement in the whole thread ( at least what i read)
i think all should read it and think about it for a minute or 2
Quote:
pay your $35 and then they tell you 8 of the 10 rides are broken,
wow you must have real bad problems with eq if you are paying 3 times the normal amount for a months fee just to play for a day and 80% of the time you are having problems
wow id quit
and yes i know you were exagerating but come on lets keep it in perspective
and this is the best statement in the whole thread ( at least what i read)
i think all should read it and think about it for a minute or 2
Quote:
Samatman wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everquest isn't some kind of mystical exception to a rule. If you pay to see a movie in the theater, and the film is cut 20 minutes before the end, you would complain. If you go to an amusement park, pay your $35 and then they tell you 8 of the 10 rides are broken, you would head right to the manager and ask for a refund. If a plumber comes to install a sink, then you have trouble with the pipes leaking for a month after the job, you would ask for it to be fixed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. But your analogy isn't really correct. It's more like you purchased a year pass to the local amusement park, only to find out that on some days the park is closed, or on some days, some of the rides wont be open. That's pretty normal if you've ever purchased one of those passes btw.
You're looking at particular instances and comparing them to an ongoing product and expecting the same level of quality. Sure. If I pay my 7.50 at a particular time for a particular film, I expect that the film will start reasonably on time and will be fully intact and the sound will be good, etc... And certainly, if that one time those expectations were not met, I would expect my money back. However, I do not expect that there will *never* be problems with that theatre. If I pay for a years worth of tickets, I understand that on occasion, something will go wrong. That's just the way the real world works.
Again. You pay a ludicrously low amount of money to play EQ. If I'm paying 7.50 for 2 hours in a theatre, those two hours better be worth my money. If I'm paying $13 for the ability to log onto a service at any time for any length of time over the course of a month, I really don't have the same expectation. I expect to get $13 worth of enjoyment out of it. If we were to equate that to a moviegoing experience, then if I get more then 4 hours of good entertainment per month out of EQ, then my money was as well spent as it would have been going to the movies. I'm willing to bet that no one ******** about EQ has *ever* gotten less then 4 hours of good EQ playing out of any given month.
You always have to make a relative value assessment. And in that assessment, EQ is pretty darn good for what you get for you money. If you really think you'll get better elsewhere then by all means go buy your online fun somewhere else.
Having said that, I do agree that recently EQ has had more then it's "normal" rate of problems (primarily the result of DX9). But why then ***** when they say they're going to focus on fixing the problems? I just find it amusing that some people manage to find the dark cloud in any silver lining...
I also find it doubly amusing when people accuse SOE of pushing new prouct when they haven't fixed all the bugs in the existing ones, yet are still ******** now the SOE has pushed back Omens to fix bugs. You just can't please everyone and sometimes you just have to ignore the people who perma-***** about everything.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everquest isn't some kind of mystical exception to a rule. If you pay to see a movie in the theater, and the film is cut 20 minutes before the end, you would complain. If you go to an amusement park, pay your $35 and then they tell you 8 of the 10 rides are broken, you would head right to the manager and ask for a refund. If a plumber comes to install a sink, then you have trouble with the pipes leaking for a month after the job, you would ask for it to be fixed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. But your analogy isn't really correct. It's more like you purchased a year pass to the local amusement park, only to find out that on some days the park is closed, or on some days, some of the rides wont be open. That's pretty normal if you've ever purchased one of those passes btw.
You're looking at particular instances and comparing them to an ongoing product and expecting the same level of quality. Sure. If I pay my 7.50 at a particular time for a particular film, I expect that the film will start reasonably on time and will be fully intact and the sound will be good, etc... And certainly, if that one time those expectations were not met, I would expect my money back. However, I do not expect that there will *never* be problems with that theatre. If I pay for a years worth of tickets, I understand that on occasion, something will go wrong. That's just the way the real world works.
Again. You pay a ludicrously low amount of money to play EQ. If I'm paying 7.50 for 2 hours in a theatre, those two hours better be worth my money. If I'm paying $13 for the ability to log onto a service at any time for any length of time over the course of a month, I really don't have the same expectation. I expect to get $13 worth of enjoyment out of it. If we were to equate that to a moviegoing experience, then if I get more then 4 hours of good entertainment per month out of EQ, then my money was as well spent as it would have been going to the movies. I'm willing to bet that no one ******** about EQ has *ever* gotten less then 4 hours of good EQ playing out of any given month.
You always have to make a relative value assessment. And in that assessment, EQ is pretty darn good for what you get for you money. If you really think you'll get better elsewhere then by all means go buy your online fun somewhere else.
Having said that, I do agree that recently EQ has had more then it's "normal" rate of problems (primarily the result of DX9). But why then ***** when they say they're going to focus on fixing the problems? I just find it amusing that some people manage to find the dark cloud in any silver lining...
I also find it doubly amusing when people accuse SOE of pushing new prouct when they haven't fixed all the bugs in the existing ones, yet are still ******** now the SOE has pushed back Omens to fix bugs. You just can't please everyone and sometimes you just have to ignore the people who perma-***** about everything.
Sticking to the original topic of this post, I have to say....
Many people from the EQ community are only too glad to help EQ be a better game by spending time on the test server to help try out new code. This service is provided by the player FREE to SOE(if you don't count the fact that they are paying to play EQ(which kind of implies they are actually PAYING SOE to help test code)).
In light of this fact, NO ONE needs to accept the bugs of the released code we are currently having to deal with. SOE has MORE than enough resources to have properly test the code before it went live.
Lastly, to those defending SOE on this issue......
You don't have the right to decide what is acceptable to ME! By all means, feel free to speak for yourself and share your opinion even if it contradicts anything I or anyone else says, but don't tell other people what they should accept. Most people work hard for their money and an extra $12-$15 dollars a month(assuming only one account is owned) can be a lot. Especially when you realize you're paying between $144-$180 a year to play that game(without figuring the cost of any expansions). If you own more than one account, you realize you are paying HUNDREDS of dollars a year to play this game.
Given the amount of money people spend to play this game, I think they have the right to be heard without someone belittling them.
I see people telling them to play other games. People are upset because THIS is the game they want to play and it was working well until this improperly tested code was released. People have put something much more valuable into this game than their money, they put their time and effort.
Everyone knows bugs will happen, that is just something everyone understands. This goes well beyond the slip of a little bug that needs to be fixed though and people are justifiably angry.
Many people from the EQ community are only too glad to help EQ be a better game by spending time on the test server to help try out new code. This service is provided by the player FREE to SOE(if you don't count the fact that they are paying to play EQ(which kind of implies they are actually PAYING SOE to help test code)).
In light of this fact, NO ONE needs to accept the bugs of the released code we are currently having to deal with. SOE has MORE than enough resources to have properly test the code before it went live.
Lastly, to those defending SOE on this issue......
You don't have the right to decide what is acceptable to ME! By all means, feel free to speak for yourself and share your opinion even if it contradicts anything I or anyone else says, but don't tell other people what they should accept. Most people work hard for their money and an extra $12-$15 dollars a month(assuming only one account is owned) can be a lot. Especially when you realize you're paying between $144-$180 a year to play that game(without figuring the cost of any expansions). If you own more than one account, you realize you are paying HUNDREDS of dollars a year to play this game.
Given the amount of money people spend to play this game, I think they have the right to be heard without someone belittling them.
I see people telling them to play other games. People are upset because THIS is the game they want to play and it was working well until this improperly tested code was released. People have put something much more valuable into this game than their money, they put their time and effort.
Everyone knows bugs will happen, that is just something everyone understands. This goes well beyond the slip of a little bug that needs to be fixed though and people are justifiably angry.
KerikDaven wrote:
You don't have the right to decide what is acceptable to ME! By all means, feel free to speak for yourself and share your opinion even if it contradicts anything I or anyone else says, but don't tell other people what they should accept. Most people work hard for their money and an extra $12-$15 dollars a month(assuming only one account is owned) can be a lot. Especially when you realize you're paying between $144-$180 a year to play that game(without figuring the cost of any expansions). If you own more than one account, you realize you are paying HUNDREDS of dollars a year to play this game.
Given the amount of money people spend to play this game, I think they have the right to be heard without someone belittling them.
Yes, however, if your "expectations" are completely unrealistic and your endless ******** clearly demonstrate your lack of undertsanding of the issues and reality of the matter, I will continue to point out your deficiencies.
I wonder if the people who continue to carry on actually read any of the links?
The original comment was "hey, look, SOE have come clean and are seemingly making some genuine effort to turn things around"!
My follow up post was to provide a means for any one interested in the facts of the matter to read for themselves what SOE have undertaken to do and and their explanation of how things got to the stage they had reached.
Now, if any of you people that have ******* incessantly about these matters have any real life experience at all, you would realise that the instance of a CEO of a corporation holding an open meeting with his customers and admitting his errors, asking for forgiveness and publicly committing himself to a program of "making it right" is completely unheard of.
In terms of management accountability and transparency it can not be faulted. As I said at the begining.
PS.. Your silly $188 per year argument has me sorely tempted to quote an old post from Patrician.
The cost of playing EQ is a pitance, it is the best value entertainment to be found anywhere in the world. If you are busting your budget to pay for it then you have your priorities in life upside dowm.
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
Please quote your source for this statement
The last post on this thread talks about Development and Testing as told to a TCH poster at the Fan Faire. You're welcome to dismiss it as gossip or to call her a liar, but if you're waiting for SOE to publish a press release saying "We undertest our patches", you're taking a pretty naive view of things.
You have me a bit puzzled here Jophiel?
Where did I call her a liar?
I simply asked for verifacation of a statement that implied first hand knowlege of the inner workings of SOE.
I then answered my own question by posting the link(s) to the reports from the "summit" which more or less admitted to the issue.
If yoiu want to duke it out over something you need to find something a bit more meaty
IIuien wrote:
Now, if any of you people that have ******* incessantly about these matters have any real life experience at all, you would realise that the instance of a CEO of a corporation holding an open meeting with his customers and admitting his errors, asking for forgiveness and publicly committing himself to a program of "making it right" is completely unheard of.
Look, I think its great that they are doing something about this (finally) - but I'm not gonna put them on a silver plated pedestal for finally coming clean after their own poor practices landed them in a world of $h!t.
Quote:
there were people ******** that the new expansion was coming out too soon and soe needed to fix the current bugs
so they say the are going to do that
instead of being happy ( or at least quiet) people start ******** about that
so they say the are going to do that
instead of being happy ( or at least quiet) people start ******** about that
As has been said by a few people on the forums, and I think largely ignored, it doesn't matter what SOE does. People will always find something to ***** about. Even when people get what they want, it's just never good enough. But then, it's easier for a person to be critical and captious rather than judicious and hopeful, so this is no surprise.
"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and
the value of nothing." -Oscar Wilde
Iluien the Silent wrote:
You have me a bit puzzled here Jophiel?
Where did I call her a liar?
I simply asked for verifacation of a statement that implied first hand knowlege of the inner workings of SOE.
I then answered my own question by posting the link(s) to the reports from the "summit" which more or less admitted to the issue.
If yoiu want to duke it out over something you need to find something a bit more meaty
I wrote what I did poorly. I simply meant that you had the option of refusing to accept my second-hand source because it was admittably second-hand. It was more of a measure against the usual "ppfftt.. your source sucks" remarks heard on forums than any sort of personal commentary.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I singled out no-one in my comment about SOE defenders belittling SOE critics. The truth is I've seen this discussion play out on numerous forums, and they all play out the same way.
As to the source of my statement that SOE made a conscious decision to ignore or underplay the bugs that were reported on test. I have no first hand knowledge of the inner workings of SOE. There are times, however, when the information available is sufficient to extrapolate a course of events with some degree of confidence.
This isn't the only EQ related forum I read. This is certainly not the only thread I've read complaining about the quality of gameplay, especially since the Dx9 engine went live. On the various forums are multiple posts from people who say that they do play on the test server. Those people say they did repeatedly report bugs, and now those same bugs are on the production servers.
Perhaps all those posters were lying and they actually play on the production servers and not the test server at all. It's entirely possible. As it doesn't seem to be the most reasonable explanation I tend to dismiss it.
If your claim is that I have made assumptions, you're absolutely correct. From the information in front of me I assume one of two things has happened/is happening.
1. SOE is in way over their head with the programming or coding of their own product and does not know how to repair it.
2. SOE did not consider the bugs and malfunctions to be of sufficient import to devote the resources needed to correct those bugs and malfunctions before the changes went live.
I hope this clears up an confusion regarding the content of my earlier post.
As to the source of my statement that SOE made a conscious decision to ignore or underplay the bugs that were reported on test. I have no first hand knowledge of the inner workings of SOE. There are times, however, when the information available is sufficient to extrapolate a course of events with some degree of confidence.
This isn't the only EQ related forum I read. This is certainly not the only thread I've read complaining about the quality of gameplay, especially since the Dx9 engine went live. On the various forums are multiple posts from people who say that they do play on the test server. Those people say they did repeatedly report bugs, and now those same bugs are on the production servers.
Perhaps all those posters were lying and they actually play on the production servers and not the test server at all. It's entirely possible. As it doesn't seem to be the most reasonable explanation I tend to dismiss it.
If your claim is that I have made assumptions, you're absolutely correct. From the information in front of me I assume one of two things has happened/is happening.
1. SOE is in way over their head with the programming or coding of their own product and does not know how to repair it.
2. SOE did not consider the bugs and malfunctions to be of sufficient import to devote the resources needed to correct those bugs and malfunctions before the changes went live.
I hope this clears up an confusion regarding the content of my earlier post.
I'm disappointed by your response to my post Iluien, I generally find your posts informative and even enlightened in content. Anyway, be that as it may I'll address your points......
You wrote...
I hardly consider expecting SOE to properly test code before submitting it to the live server an unrealistic expectation. This also being the very FIRST post I've made on the issue, I'd like to know how you can claim me to be "endlessly *************** Lastly, please be a little more specific as to how I show a lack of understanding of the issues. Quote me word for word and please explain where I am mistaken, I'm big enough to admit I am wrong when I've made a mistake, but I don't happen to see where that is.SOE shouldn't have to come clean, the effort should have been shown from the beginning. This coming clean is merely their way of trying to salvage an already bad situation while trying to retain it's customer base. I can't blame them for doing it, it's a smart move from a P.R. standpoint.They got to the stage they reached by being sloppy and releasing the code before proper testing was done. Anyone with a brain can read between the lines and see they are simply trying to cover their a$$es at this point.
Samatman did a great job of addressing that so I'll just let that stand.
By all means, link it. That figure is only the monthly fee and doesn't take into account the cost of the software or additional expansions. Let's call it an even $200 a year for the sake of numbers. You can buy a lot for $200, games that you can play online as much as you want without ever paying a monthly fee.
"Best value in entertainment to be found anywhere in the world"?? You're kidding right? If you want to stick to role-playing games, we can start with Morrowind. It's not online but it's epic in size and you can buy it with BOTH it's expansions for $30, that's a value with HUNDREDS of hours of play possible without adding any other mods which are available. Then there is Dungeon Siege which can be played online and off and is one of the most mod-friendly games out. With mods there are endless possibilities and the game was made with modding encouraged and expected. Neverwinter Nights comes to mind also which is a great single-player game and also cool multi-player tools for making your own adventures or the ability to add other people's. In the roleplaying "lite" arena there is Diablo which can be played alone or with others online. Many people have played that game for months at a time to well over a year without ever paying a single monthly fee.
Now if you want to talk about other genre of games there isn't enough space to list them all here. Age of Empires II is one of my personal favorites. How old is AoE now? I don't know how long I've had it but once I start a game I can just keep playing, and I've never paid any fees to play it.
So I guess you're calling it a value because you only pay $14 a month and can play any time you like as often as you like? But I can play any of those other games without playing a monthly fee. Are you going to counter by saying how much extra content is added while those are basically static? That would be a good argument if we didn't pay extra for expansions. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they charge for that content, but make no mistake, we are paying for everything.
Want real value? Buy an X-box! For $50 a year(that's just over $4 a month) you can play EVERY X-box Live enabled game as often as you want any time you want. That's EVERY Live game for about $4 a month, not $4 per game, for ALL the Live games you own! (Disclaimer: A few certain downloads have fees to them and a game like Star Wars Galaxies(which is supposed to be coming to X-box) will have monthly fees not included in the Live service) To me that is value. Buy a PS2 and you can play just about everything online for free, but honestly Microsoft has the far superior online service.
Lastly, who are you to decide what $14 a month means to someone? To some people it's nothing. To others it might be a lot to spare. I'm 33 years old and married with a 3 year old daughter. My wife is permanently disabled and I'm the only one in the family who works. Money is tight and I need to pick and choose what I can spare money for. I just paid $80 for custom made ear-plugs for my daughter because she had tubes put in her ears to stop her from getting all the ear infections she's been getting the past 5 months. Once again I ask, who the hell are you to tell anyone what they can afford. I spend $1,250 a month on rent, $80 for electric, $130 for my cable service(TV and internet), $45 for phone service, $300 car payment, $200 for car insurance(2 cars), $50 a week on gas(again 2 cars), and $120 a week on food. That right there is $2,685 in just regular monthly expenses not counting actually DOING anything. That also doesn't account for car repairs or other things that are needed outside of those basic expenses.
I'm not some snot-nosed kid living with mommy and daddy, I'm a man supporting a family, so DO NOT think to tell me that an extra $14 dollars a month is a "pittance". $200 a year to play Everquest is a VERY real expense. Make that $600 a year for me since I run 3 accounts on 2 computers. The $42 dollars a month I pay could easily be a new game a month so if I'm upset that the game I've invest so much time and money in isn't working as it should(and for a very stupid reason I might add(reason being a lack of proper testing(testing which is actually FREE thanks to the people who help out on the test server))), I damn well have a reason to be upset.
Excuse the length of my post but now you honestly pi$$ed me off! Probably not just me, but a lot of people who work hard for their money and don't consider ANY of it a "pittance". People who have to pick and choose what they can and can't do based on what they can afford that specific month. Some people don't have that problem, but these days most do. Usually I enjoy reading your posts as they show you to be a person of insight. The statements in the post I am responding to shows none of that.
You wrote...
Quote:
Yes, however, if your "expectations" are completely unrealistic and your endless ******** clearly demonstrate your lack of understanding of the issues and reality of the matter, I will continue to point out your deficiencies.
Quote:
The original comment was "hey, look, SOE have come clean and are seemingly making some genuine effort to turn things around"!
Quote:
My follow up post was to provide a means for any one interested in the facts of the matter to read for themselves what SOE have undertaken to do and and their explanation of how things got to the stage they had reached.
Quote:
Now, if any of you people that have ******* incessantly about these matters have any real life experience at all, you would realize that the instance of a CEO of a corporation holding an open meeting with his customers and admitting his errors, asking for forgiveness and publicly committing himself to a program of "making it right" is completely unheard of.
Quote:
PS.. Your silly $188 per year argument has me sorely tempted to quote an old post from Patrician.
The cost of playing EQ is a pitance, it is the best value entertainment to be found anywhere in the world. If you are busting your budget to pay for it then you have your priorities in life upside dowm.
The cost of playing EQ is a pitance, it is the best value entertainment to be found anywhere in the world. If you are busting your budget to pay for it then you have your priorities in life upside dowm.
By all means, link it. That figure is only the monthly fee and doesn't take into account the cost of the software or additional expansions. Let's call it an even $200 a year for the sake of numbers. You can buy a lot for $200, games that you can play online as much as you want without ever paying a monthly fee.
"Best value in entertainment to be found anywhere in the world"?? You're kidding right? If you want to stick to role-playing games, we can start with Morrowind. It's not online but it's epic in size and you can buy it with BOTH it's expansions for $30, that's a value with HUNDREDS of hours of play possible without adding any other mods which are available. Then there is Dungeon Siege which can be played online and off and is one of the most mod-friendly games out. With mods there are endless possibilities and the game was made with modding encouraged and expected. Neverwinter Nights comes to mind also which is a great single-player game and also cool multi-player tools for making your own adventures or the ability to add other people's. In the roleplaying "lite" arena there is Diablo which can be played alone or with others online. Many people have played that game for months at a time to well over a year without ever paying a single monthly fee.
Now if you want to talk about other genre of games there isn't enough space to list them all here. Age of Empires II is one of my personal favorites. How old is AoE now? I don't know how long I've had it but once I start a game I can just keep playing, and I've never paid any fees to play it.
So I guess you're calling it a value because you only pay $14 a month and can play any time you like as often as you like? But I can play any of those other games without playing a monthly fee. Are you going to counter by saying how much extra content is added while those are basically static? That would be a good argument if we didn't pay extra for expansions. Don't get me wrong, I understand why they charge for that content, but make no mistake, we are paying for everything.
Want real value? Buy an X-box! For $50 a year(that's just over $4 a month) you can play EVERY X-box Live enabled game as often as you want any time you want. That's EVERY Live game for about $4 a month, not $4 per game, for ALL the Live games you own! (Disclaimer: A few certain downloads have fees to them and a game like Star Wars Galaxies(which is supposed to be coming to X-box) will have monthly fees not included in the Live service) To me that is value. Buy a PS2 and you can play just about everything online for free, but honestly Microsoft has the far superior online service.
Lastly, who are you to decide what $14 a month means to someone? To some people it's nothing. To others it might be a lot to spare. I'm 33 years old and married with a 3 year old daughter. My wife is permanently disabled and I'm the only one in the family who works. Money is tight and I need to pick and choose what I can spare money for. I just paid $80 for custom made ear-plugs for my daughter because she had tubes put in her ears to stop her from getting all the ear infections she's been getting the past 5 months. Once again I ask, who the hell are you to tell anyone what they can afford. I spend $1,250 a month on rent, $80 for electric, $130 for my cable service(TV and internet), $45 for phone service, $300 car payment, $200 for car insurance(2 cars), $50 a week on gas(again 2 cars), and $120 a week on food. That right there is $2,685 in just regular monthly expenses not counting actually DOING anything. That also doesn't account for car repairs or other things that are needed outside of those basic expenses.
I'm not some snot-nosed kid living with mommy and daddy, I'm a man supporting a family, so DO NOT think to tell me that an extra $14 dollars a month is a "pittance". $200 a year to play Everquest is a VERY real expense. Make that $600 a year for me since I run 3 accounts on 2 computers. The $42 dollars a month I pay could easily be a new game a month so if I'm upset that the game I've invest so much time and money in isn't working as it should(and for a very stupid reason I might add(reason being a lack of proper testing(testing which is actually FREE thanks to the people who help out on the test server))), I damn well have a reason to be upset.
Excuse the length of my post but now you honestly pi$$ed me off! Probably not just me, but a lot of people who work hard for their money and don't consider ANY of it a "pittance". People who have to pick and choose what they can and can't do based on what they can afford that specific month. Some people don't have that problem, but these days most do. Usually I enjoy reading your posts as they show you to be a person of insight. The statements in the post I am responding to shows none of that.
If you really cant afford it you shouldn't waste the money, its as simple as that.
Yanari the Puissant wrote:
As to the source of my statement that SOE made a conscious decision to ignore or underplay the bugs that were reported on test. I have no first hand knowledge of the inner workings of SOE. There are times, however, when the information available is sufficient to extrapolate a course of events with some degree of confidence.
Like another poster I only skimmed this thread for a time as it had all the attributes of a hate SOE post. But then I saw so many posts I decided to do a little more in-depth reading and wasted a lot of time proving myself correct. Does anyone owe me any plat or cash for this? Personally, I do not believe so; I, of course, took the time myself to read it. /em shudders
But I believe this last statement won out of my top 10 reasons for not reading this to begin with, having a feeling of what was coming.
I shall now give many of you a good laugh I am sure, and I would like to say to some that you might as well hold your tongue, unless you think you have buddies here that will enjoy your "wit" then please feel free, would not want to impair any folks freedom of speech.
I have played EQ for well over 2 and half years now on a part-time basis. My main is now 38, my second is 28. I spend a lot of time just goofing off, and since I play other games off and on also I do not level fast to say the least. This is intentional, I have enjoyed coming back off and on to see the places SOE has created and do not wish to level so fast I that may never enjoy them. I sometimes spend weeks in Norrath, then disappear for months. Occasionally I check forums for news of the game.
The news usually sounds the same. Some hate the problems that have been caused, some defend the game they love to play, some just look for some help and run fast, and the list goes on but the ideas never change. Which, to me, begs the question, Who is more accurate in their description of the ongoing struggle?
Because after watching and playing for years, game after game, I have discovered that, just like life, nothing is ever perfect at all times, and some things are best left to fade away. I, myself, shall play EQ2 next, but my characters will not drop here unless I am sure it can hold my attention for many more years. My back-up plan is to play EQ yet a while longer (and of course take the sideroads to other places, as usual). I will also continue to watch where technology and the Devs move next. And it can be counted on I will try many other games meanwhile, not to metion continuing to GET A LIFE meanwhile.
Quote:
I would like to say to some that you might as well hold your tongue
Maybe you should stop letting it bother you, since you can't stop them.
You don't have to agree with them.
You don't have to sympathize with them.
You certainly don't have to read their posts.
But really, you're approach is obviously the superior one. Belittling those posters and telling them to hold their tongues.
Quote:
If you really cant afford it you shouldn't waste the money, its as simple as that.
I don't recall ONCE saying I couldn't afford it so I'm really not sure where you came to that conclusion. I do recall saying that it's not your place to tell me or other people what the value of money is to them though.
It was worth the expenditure to me because EQ was my escape to another time and place where I could get away from the common burdens of life and just have fun doing something I couldn't do in everyday life. I felt is was a fair value for the money spent.
Is that really the best response you could make though? I was hoping you'd point out my deficiencies, or how I fail to understand the situation, or show how I have been endlessly ********* or how my expectations have been unrealistic. I'd even like to see how you can call Everquest "the best entertainment value in the world". I'll admit it's a GOOD value for the money, but that's certainly a far cry from your claims.
If you want to have a discussion, then lets, but let's not make wild claims or hyperbole. Raise valid points with comments that make sense rather than trying to win an argument by belittling other people's opinions without a shred of fact or evidence to back up your claims. Currently you're only succeeding in making yourself look foolish.
BTW, SOE has made the improvements to EQ that you have seen over the years since its gone live based on the feedback of customers on the messageboards. Many/most games make their changes this way so telling people to hold their tongues doesn't help in the least. It's people's displeasure with certain things(like having to sit with the spellbook open to be considered 'medding') that have brought about the positive changes people now take for granted. Yes, their will always people who complain no matter what is done, but most companies have the foresight to be able to tell the difference between petty bickering and valid points. Right now people have valid reason to complain.
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