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...In fact the pricing is so ridiculous I never bothered trying to sell it, just stuck it on my level 1 Rogue mule, a terrible waste really.
Ummmm... Errr... Illuien... can I have your mule's stuff???
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Ummmm... Errr... Illuien... can I have your mule's stuff???
Just as an illustration of what is possible:
Last night in the LFG tool there was a ranger LFG with message "5900hp/1600ac(unbuffed)". I've grouped with him once and not only is he very good but when the tank went afk he took far less damage tanking than the plate tank we had.
Last night in the LFG tool there was a ranger LFG with message "5900hp/1600ac(unbuffed)". I've grouped with him once and not only is he very good but when the tank went afk he took far less damage tanking than the plate tank we had.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Cobra101 wrote:
Just as an illustration of what is possible:
Last night in the LFG tool there was a ranger LFG with message "5900hp/1600ac(unbuffed)". I've grouped with him once and not only is he very good but when the tank went afk he took far less damage tanking than the plate tank we had.
Last night in the LFG tool there was a ranger LFG with message "5900hp/1600ac(unbuffed)". I've grouped with him once and not only is he very good but when the tank went afk he took far less damage tanking than the plate tank we had.
Good grief!
How on earth does he get to 1600 AC unbuffed?
And Old Blue, yep no worries, move the Vazaelle and promise to play in 3 AM PST time slot (for the rest of your life) and its yours
Message boards are chock-full of useful information, but they appear in snippets (i.e.: If I were a newbie reading quickly, all of tarv of the Seven Sea's first post could be taken out of context). It's too bad that there isn't a general disclaimer, "Hey! If you read something here about your class that you didn't know, read up about it on your class boards" :). In general, these boards do much more good than bad, IMO.
Admittedly, the faults that Toasticle brings up are the "invisible" ones that can cripple your character in the later game, and that your party members aren't going to see and be able to comment on. In a hard LDoN, having a ranger without max taunt and defensive skills is a serious weakness, since a 3-MOB pull can easily take out a non-Time MA when you only have 1 healer to "spread out" the agro (especially if the last 2-pull used up Divine Arb, DA, and Riposte since the chanter pet broke mid-pull :)). Sadly, this is one that is not easily correctable.
Admittedly, the faults that Toasticle brings up are the "invisible" ones that can cripple your character in the later game, and that your party members aren't going to see and be able to comment on. In a hard LDoN, having a ranger without max taunt and defensive skills is a serious weakness, since a 3-MOB pull can easily take out a non-Time MA when you only have 1 healer to "spread out" the agro (especially if the last 2-pull used up Divine Arb, DA, and Riposte since the chanter pet broke mid-pull :)). Sadly, this is one that is not easily correctable.
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As to the chests in LDoNs. I still say that any group that messes with them during the adventure is nuts. Even if you have the right classes, it's still a danger that shouldn't be taken IMO
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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Clerics should sit and med if not healing.
Hard to describe the actual circumstance but I was LOM to start and the silly tank wanted to finish the LDON (time was a factor). He is nowhere near full HP, wades in and gets an add. I throw one heal and I am OOM. On the other hand I have 100%HP. I jump in to help finish off the weaker of the two mobs. The tank dies. We end up winning the adventure but I get a ration for not medding. I believe the quote was "What kind of cleric fights when he is OOM?" to which I say there are two times I will melee: A. when FM, and B. When I'm OOM and FULL HP. There is no hope of medding up enough to throw more than one heal before the tank will die anyway. Might as well use my HP for something, even if it just lets the tank get in a few more hits while the MOB attacks me.
My clerics also have EVOC maxxed for their level. (Still need to work on DIV and CONJ though hehe.)
Oh yeah, and I did tell them they sucked!
I am a cleric and I will tell you that I take pride in what I do. Therefore, I make sure that all of my skills that would help a group are high enough to avoid the fizzle-oom crap that you said before.
That being said, the job of a cleric is to heal....you are asked to join a group because you can nuke....ummm...no wait...heal. If you want to nuke, sit, camp and start a wizard. I don't care if there are undead mobs that you can blow up. If you have a tank that is doing his job, you do yours and heal him when he needs it. If I have to call OOM because I was busy nuking, I would not be invited back to that group, simple.
Stun line of spells....I have 5 healing spells and 3 stuns ready in a LDoN. Reason...healing is more important than nuking or stunning. Stunning occurs when you have a cleric mob that heals themselves or getting attacked. You stun the mob to interupt the casting or give the tank time to regain aggro.
If you want to be a battle-cleric, that's not a bad choice but don't be mad when people don't want a fighting cleric. You have a specific job and that is what you get invited for.
Chests in LDoN - I hate them. Can't tell you the number of times that I have DIED because someone thought they could get something cool. A +5 str aug is not enough incentive for me to risk my party's lives over. Not to mention, if I do manage to keep everyone alive and if I am able to cure everyone before death, now I have to med and spend more time waiting to get back to the adventure.
And it's more mana efficient to rez the ranger instead of healing....especially after nuking. :)
My 2 cents.
Edited, Wed Jun 2 13:32:19 2004 by Thorric
That being said, the job of a cleric is to heal....you are asked to join a group because you can nuke....ummm...no wait...heal. If you want to nuke, sit, camp and start a wizard. I don't care if there are undead mobs that you can blow up. If you have a tank that is doing his job, you do yours and heal him when he needs it. If I have to call OOM because I was busy nuking, I would not be invited back to that group, simple.
Stun line of spells....I have 5 healing spells and 3 stuns ready in a LDoN. Reason...healing is more important than nuking or stunning. Stunning occurs when you have a cleric mob that heals themselves or getting attacked. You stun the mob to interupt the casting or give the tank time to regain aggro.
If you want to be a battle-cleric, that's not a bad choice but don't be mad when people don't want a fighting cleric. You have a specific job and that is what you get invited for.
Chests in LDoN - I hate them. Can't tell you the number of times that I have DIED because someone thought they could get something cool. A +5 str aug is not enough incentive for me to risk my party's lives over. Not to mention, if I do manage to keep everyone alive and if I am able to cure everyone before death, now I have to med and spend more time waiting to get back to the adventure.
And it's more mana efficient to rez the ranger instead of healing....especially after nuking. :)
My 2 cents.
Edited, Wed Jun 2 13:32:19 2004 by Thorric
Although Toasticle raises some interesting points, IMHO the running debate with the back and forth points out the value of the message board which is opposite to the original post.
Remember this is a forum to allow people who play to share their thoughts on EQ, not a SOE site where there is only one right way.
With regard to the original points brought up:
Getting taunt skills up for melee classes, defense for clerics so they can take some hits, spell skills outside your main casting lines are all valid. Have learned the hardway the cost of not doing that. But taunting when you are not MT can be counterproductive to group.
Rangers can't tank, etc. - probably a dead horse, rangers (and rogues, etc) can tank if given the right circumstances and gear - once had a successful 4 person mid 30s LDOn with 3 clerics and twinked rogue for tank. But overall, warriors and pally/Sk are more designed to be the tank.
Battle Clerics - no one minds a battle cleric as long as they keep mana up for healing, but while the group can get bye without extra melee damage from the battle cleric, your warrior or chanter can't heal. Agree that stun line is great on healer mob (best use of mana if it stops CH), but I dont remember my cleric ever stunning in combat - use stun. Undead damage nukes (and other nukes) can be critical at the end of the LDON where you are racing the clock for that last collect or mob, but only if clc has mana.
Chests - totally disagree with your point here, my main (chanter) has 127 wins and 17 losses in LDON and 5 of the losses were chest related (including 1 where we 75% through a collect with 40 minutes left before chest trap hit us with drunkeness and no one could move for 30 mins). Even if it works out well, you eat up too much time. On the other hand, I always come back afterwards to try them.
Victims/trees - agree that these should be tried, a lot of positive things can happen, just wait until mobs are dead and no pulls coming. Best way is to have MT say, I will hit vicitims/trees after we clear room.
Final point, telling people who disagree with your point of you that they suck is a bad way to win an arguement and distracts from what you are trying to achieve.
Remember this is a forum to allow people who play to share their thoughts on EQ, not a SOE site where there is only one right way.
With regard to the original points brought up:
Getting taunt skills up for melee classes, defense for clerics so they can take some hits, spell skills outside your main casting lines are all valid. Have learned the hardway the cost of not doing that. But taunting when you are not MT can be counterproductive to group.
Rangers can't tank, etc. - probably a dead horse, rangers (and rogues, etc) can tank if given the right circumstances and gear - once had a successful 4 person mid 30s LDOn with 3 clerics and twinked rogue for tank. But overall, warriors and pally/Sk are more designed to be the tank.
Battle Clerics - no one minds a battle cleric as long as they keep mana up for healing, but while the group can get bye without extra melee damage from the battle cleric, your warrior or chanter can't heal. Agree that stun line is great on healer mob (best use of mana if it stops CH), but I dont remember my cleric ever stunning in combat - use stun. Undead damage nukes (and other nukes) can be critical at the end of the LDON where you are racing the clock for that last collect or mob, but only if clc has mana.
Chests - totally disagree with your point here, my main (chanter) has 127 wins and 17 losses in LDON and 5 of the losses were chest related (including 1 where we 75% through a collect with 40 minutes left before chest trap hit us with drunkeness and no one could move for 30 mins). Even if it works out well, you eat up too much time. On the other hand, I always come back afterwards to try them.
Victims/trees - agree that these should be tried, a lot of positive things can happen, just wait until mobs are dead and no pulls coming. Best way is to have MT say, I will hit vicitims/trees after we clear room.
Final point, telling people who disagree with your point of you that they suck is a bad way to win an arguement and distracts from what you are trying to achieve.
Last night I did an interesting LDoN. All 65, everyone at least on the second AA tier, everyone but me in an EP or Time guild (or equipped that way but currently unguilded). Warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, and 2 beastlords. We did a normal risk LDoN, and it was of course massive overkill. The warrior would pull 4 at a time, the other beastlord and I would usually each pull one to offtank, and the cleric would never go below 90% mana. The warrior decided to make the cleric work...he clicked off every single one of his buffs. That made her get down to 80% mana. We won, easily, the Tak kill 54 in 35 minutes...and then one of the extra mobs on the final pull decided to run away, very quickly. Pulled 10 back onto us...the warrior AE taunted in order to give us all a chance to run away (he told us to), although most of us stuck around a bit...but the shaman and cleric died so the rest of us took off. Came back to drag corpses afterwards of course (except for the other beastlord, who used a gate potion and disbanded or /q without a word).
So, what's the point of this story (besides that I think it's kind of interesting)? The tactics that you might use at higher levels can be very different from those you use at lower levels. This has been brought up before, but I think it's important to realize that the cleric's mana pool (and mana regen) can vary quite a bit from lower level to higher level. Not every cleric is massively twinked or geared, or is able to even get KEI every time. I never saw a battle cleric (or even would have thought that they existed) until I hit the 60's...until then the cleric's mana pool just wasn't big enough in the situations I was in (I remember seeing a cleric tank wonderfully in PoV and my jaw just dropped). So, telling a new player with a cleric that they should be nuking is doing them a disservice...they probably do have to sit and met at that stage. For sure they should keep all their spell skills up, for when/if they do reach this stage...but that's something that might be better done in PoK during downtime.
I won't get into the other issues brought up here...I have my own opinions but I don't have much to add on the "what should we be teaching new players" aspect for those issues.
Game on,
The Oneiromancer
So, what's the point of this story (besides that I think it's kind of interesting)? The tactics that you might use at higher levels can be very different from those you use at lower levels. This has been brought up before, but I think it's important to realize that the cleric's mana pool (and mana regen) can vary quite a bit from lower level to higher level. Not every cleric is massively twinked or geared, or is able to even get KEI every time. I never saw a battle cleric (or even would have thought that they existed) until I hit the 60's...until then the cleric's mana pool just wasn't big enough in the situations I was in (I remember seeing a cleric tank wonderfully in PoV and my jaw just dropped). So, telling a new player with a cleric that they should be nuking is doing them a disservice...they probably do have to sit and met at that stage. For sure they should keep all their spell skills up, for when/if they do reach this stage...but that's something that might be better done in PoK during downtime.
I won't get into the other issues brought up here...I have my own opinions but I don't have much to add on the "what should we be teaching new players" aspect for those issues.
Game on,
The Oneiromancer
People are freaking about chests for just cause. I've seen 5 chests opened in about 50 LDoN adventures. 4 times the group wiped, the fifth time we got a plus 4 INT augment.
What you have to realize about the traps is that SoE did not put a lot of thought into tuning the nasty trap effects to the lower level groups. At lower levels the trap effects can kill casters outright. In each of the wipes the cleric in the group had plenty of mana, but the group still wiped. Why? Beause the clerics were not yet 45, and thus did not have KEI. Group heals are mana intensive and the cleric quickly goes OOM and all die.
But this does validate the point of this thread, which is do not generalize too much.
What you have to realize about the traps is that SoE did not put a lot of thought into tuning the nasty trap effects to the lower level groups. At lower levels the trap effects can kill casters outright. In each of the wipes the cleric in the group had plenty of mana, but the group still wiped. Why? Beause the clerics were not yet 45, and thus did not have KEI. Group heals are mana intensive and the cleric quickly goes OOM and all die.
But this does validate the point of this thread, which is do not generalize too much.
No offense, but what sort of retarded rogues and bards are you running with? The only way I could see wiping on 80% of chests is if:
(a) The bard/rogue has a sense/disarm of 0 or there-abouts
(b) People don't know how to "read" chests and are trying to disarm a rune/curse trap mechanically
(c) People are just smacking chests with axes and maces
My bard, with caps on Sense/Disarm well below the rogue levels still had no problem on mechanical traps in lvl 65s. My rogue, in her 40's, has no issues on chests in lvl 45-50 LDoNs. If you're wiping on four out of five chests, you're doing something seriously wrong.
(a) The bard/rogue has a sense/disarm of 0 or there-abouts
(b) People don't know how to "read" chests and are trying to disarm a rune/curse trap mechanically
(c) People are just smacking chests with axes and maces
My bard, with caps on Sense/Disarm well below the rogue levels still had no problem on mechanical traps in lvl 65s. My rogue, in her 40's, has no issues on chests in lvl 45-50 LDoNs. If you're wiping on four out of five chests, you're doing something seriously wrong.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Joph. I think he was pretty specifically talking about lower level groups and how the chests/traps were not adequately scaled to those lower levels. Responding with how at level 65, chests are no big deal really doesn't address his issue.
He's probably right too (Heh. I have no idea since I've never done a low level LDoN). The traps may very well be harder to disarm at those levels. Certainly, getting the spells needed to disarm them will be more costly in relative terms. Remove curse will be almost unheard of at those levels as well. Healing ability over time is also notically reduced when in the sub-45 crowd (due to the aformentioned lack of KEI primarily).
Details of difficulty aside (I do agree that an 80% wipe rate on chests is pretty ridiculous, but then I don't play at that level either), I think the general concensus is that no matter what level you are at, chests should be left until the end of the adventure. I will comment that I have run into lots of *really* paranoid people in LDoNs. I would say that about 90% of the time, when the group passes up chests in the dungeon, you end up in an argument when you ask people to go back and try opening them. That actually does tick me off. We've got 30 more minutes in the dungeon. Let's use them to see if we can get some loot. It's amazing to me how often people would rather just run out immediately (or port out), and just start another adventure.
He's probably right too (Heh. I have no idea since I've never done a low level LDoN). The traps may very well be harder to disarm at those levels. Certainly, getting the spells needed to disarm them will be more costly in relative terms. Remove curse will be almost unheard of at those levels as well. Healing ability over time is also notically reduced when in the sub-45 crowd (due to the aformentioned lack of KEI primarily).
Details of difficulty aside (I do agree that an 80% wipe rate on chests is pretty ridiculous, but then I don't play at that level either), I think the general concensus is that no matter what level you are at, chests should be left until the end of the adventure. I will comment that I have run into lots of *really* paranoid people in LDoNs. I would say that about 90% of the time, when the group passes up chests in the dungeon, you end up in an argument when you ask people to go back and try opening them. That actually does tick me off. We've got 30 more minutes in the dungeon. Let's use them to see if we can get some loot. It's amazing to me how often people would rather just run out immediately (or port out), and just start another adventure.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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Joph. I think he was pretty specifically talking about lower level groups and how the chests/traps were not adequately scaled to those lower levels
I'm not debating is the effects are scaled, I'm asking how you can ***** up on 80% of the chests unless you're doing something completely wrong.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I think the "doing something wrong" consists of people folowing the OP's advice.
The silly idea that it is somehow macho to smack the chest when you find it definitely exists.
At even at 65 you find people nuking them. It happened to me last night. Luckily nobody died.
At lower levels the spells cost a significant number of points compared to the points awarded and most casters just don't have them.
The silly idea that it is somehow macho to smack the chest when you find it definitely exists.
At even at 65 you find people nuking them. It happened to me last night. Luckily nobody died.
At lower levels the spells cost a significant number of points compared to the points awarded and most casters just don't have them.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Just a quick response to Jophiel's question on chest failures - while I would totally agree that I havent seen 80% failures from rogues or bards on mechanical traps (though it does happen once in a while), I have definitely seen rates as high as that on caster traps (magical/cursed).
My chanter was 23 when LDON came out and most of her levels (55 now with 2 1/2 AAs) were from LDON adventures. I got the lesser line of chest spells almost before anything else too, but I still have had a failure rate of 40% or so. I have traps go off when I cast detect traps, also had times where I detected trap successfully but it took 3 trys to disarm trap (each fail having a chance to set it off). You also have the problem of having a mechanical trap but no rogue/bard in group or cursed when clc doesnt have spell line (common in the 20s and 30 group due to cost) and so on.
Getting hit at those 20s to 30s levels (before CLC get CH)with a trap poison or acid will often wipe the group since cleric cant heal/cure fast enough - I remember one EF LDON where it took my cleric 4 cure poison casts PER PERSON to remove, 3 people died waiting for me to get to them. Also it may wipe if clc is LOM which is another reason to avoid them in the middle of an adventure.
Along the same lines, very few players at that level have remove curse yet, and that can really tank an adventure. Had one where mage failed a disarm trap spell and curse made it impossible for him to move at all (did not wear off until 30 minute timer wore off since he gated out to bind point and couldnt find anyone to cure him and we had to wait around for him to start another).
I agree that traps seem to be less of a problem at the mid 50 to 60 level that I have been playing at, however, this is not the case for the new LDON (20 and up) players.
My chanter was 23 when LDON came out and most of her levels (55 now with 2 1/2 AAs) were from LDON adventures. I got the lesser line of chest spells almost before anything else too, but I still have had a failure rate of 40% or so. I have traps go off when I cast detect traps, also had times where I detected trap successfully but it took 3 trys to disarm trap (each fail having a chance to set it off). You also have the problem of having a mechanical trap but no rogue/bard in group or cursed when clc doesnt have spell line (common in the 20s and 30 group due to cost) and so on.
Getting hit at those 20s to 30s levels (before CLC get CH)with a trap poison or acid will often wipe the group since cleric cant heal/cure fast enough - I remember one EF LDON where it took my cleric 4 cure poison casts PER PERSON to remove, 3 people died waiting for me to get to them. Also it may wipe if clc is LOM which is another reason to avoid them in the middle of an adventure.
Along the same lines, very few players at that level have remove curse yet, and that can really tank an adventure. Had one where mage failed a disarm trap spell and curse made it impossible for him to move at all (did not wear off until 30 minute timer wore off since he gated out to bind point and couldnt find anyone to cure him and we had to wait around for him to start another).
I agree that traps seem to be less of a problem at the mid 50 to 60 level that I have been playing at, however, this is not the case for the new LDON (20 and up) players.
Jophiel wrote:
No offense, but what sort of retarded rogues and bards are you running with?
Actually, if you go back and take another look at his post jophiel, you'll see that he never mentioned that it was a bard or rogue failing 4 out of 5 times.
The caster line of disarm spells fail a significant amount of time, especially at lower levels. And there's always the odd melee who says "Don't worry, I can just bash it open, and we can heal ourselves from the trap". Yes, there are some fighters out there who will say that(I guess you have to kind of be a bit of a ********* to accept the role of tank in the first place anyways
). And the traps at low levels are NASTY! Especially for casters who have next to no hit points. I remember doing an adventure on my baby enchanter(level 20 something at the time) when ldon first came out. Someone set off a trap and the initial DD from it knocked me from full HP to about 30%. Then of course the DoT aspect started hitting me, needless to say I was getting that free port to my bind spot VERY quickly
Wow, thought for sure this would be dead by now, heh.
"Tell them you suck" was supposed to be a joke. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Message boards are not completely worthless, but tossing out catchphrases like "If you want to nuke make a wizard" or "Rangers can't tank" or "melee skill is useless on a healer" as if they were absolutes is the problem. 9 times out of 10, yes. Otherwise, hell no.
For example: Clerics can't nuke is patently false, there are times when they do it very very well. Against undead, clerics are second only to wizards for many level ranges. At 44, clerics get an undead nuke that hits for 585 for 225 mana while Magicians do 600 for 250, at 65 its 1200 damage for 300 mana for clerics vs undead, 1860 for 474 for magicians, the ratios are almost exactly the same mana/damage-wise and the cleric one casts faster. When magicians get bolts they can pull ahead, but clerics vs undead is very strong. 2 clerics in a group fighting undead means you have a nuker who can take agro far better than someone wearing cloth, and who can take over if the main healer dies or gets agro or mezzed or goes oom or whatever. I have done LDoN's and unrest and other hunts where the majority of the mobs were undead with a cleric as nuker, if they have the evo they do the job amazingly well. Same with druids and summoned mobs. More often than not we can't even try because the cleric doesn't have evo skill so can't do it at all. Once you hit 200+ AA's, yeah magicians will pull ahead, but before that it's close.
Bash? Yes, stuns are "better" The also get resisted. They also fizzle. They cost mana. There are lots of mobs that are immune to magic stuns. When we have a gating or CHealing mob, any and all chance to stop it give the best chance for success. Assuming there are not other unmezzed mobs around, a mob attempting to gate or heal is not attacking anyone, so healing is not needed. Bash that sucker. The one time your stuns got resisted or were all greyed out and you see that "You bash mob for 5. Mob's casting is interuppted" makes it all worth it.
And anyone who blows up chests: Whats your div skill? All the chest spells are div based, and the lower your skill the lower your chance of succeeding. Hell, even I don't always follow my own advice and my magicians div skill sucked. Attempting to open a chest with really low div skill was setting them off more often than not, so I stopped long enough to work on div. Once it maxed, maybe 1 out of 100 pop the trap. The failure I have seen usually involved a bard/rogue trying to open a chest without checking to see if its mechanical, or a caster barely pushing out a detect/remove because once they could get invis off they stopped bothering raising div. Have to agree on the spells though, anything before the greater version is a waste of points.
Lastly: GET YOUR DEFENSE UP BEFORE YOU HIT 50 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. Had yet ANOTHER cleric on Monday that fell like a stuffed animal when he got agro. His AC, depsite uber roxxoring gear, was like 217 or something less than 1/4 of the tank. Of course he wouldn't accept that that was the problem, since as he was wearing plate he should be fine, right? He also, at 46, had never ever cast a lull spell so we wasted 20 minutes trying to find a "puller". Sigh.
"Tell them you suck" was supposed to be a joke. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
Message boards are not completely worthless, but tossing out catchphrases like "If you want to nuke make a wizard" or "Rangers can't tank" or "melee skill is useless on a healer" as if they were absolutes is the problem. 9 times out of 10, yes. Otherwise, hell no.
For example: Clerics can't nuke is patently false, there are times when they do it very very well. Against undead, clerics are second only to wizards for many level ranges. At 44, clerics get an undead nuke that hits for 585 for 225 mana while Magicians do 600 for 250, at 65 its 1200 damage for 300 mana for clerics vs undead, 1860 for 474 for magicians, the ratios are almost exactly the same mana/damage-wise and the cleric one casts faster. When magicians get bolts they can pull ahead, but clerics vs undead is very strong. 2 clerics in a group fighting undead means you have a nuker who can take agro far better than someone wearing cloth, and who can take over if the main healer dies or gets agro or mezzed or goes oom or whatever. I have done LDoN's and unrest and other hunts where the majority of the mobs were undead with a cleric as nuker, if they have the evo they do the job amazingly well. Same with druids and summoned mobs. More often than not we can't even try because the cleric doesn't have evo skill so can't do it at all. Once you hit 200+ AA's, yeah magicians will pull ahead, but before that it's close.
Bash? Yes, stuns are "better" The also get resisted. They also fizzle. They cost mana. There are lots of mobs that are immune to magic stuns. When we have a gating or CHealing mob, any and all chance to stop it give the best chance for success. Assuming there are not other unmezzed mobs around, a mob attempting to gate or heal is not attacking anyone, so healing is not needed. Bash that sucker. The one time your stuns got resisted or were all greyed out and you see that "You bash mob for 5. Mob's casting is interuppted" makes it all worth it.
And anyone who blows up chests: Whats your div skill? All the chest spells are div based, and the lower your skill the lower your chance of succeeding. Hell, even I don't always follow my own advice and my magicians div skill sucked. Attempting to open a chest with really low div skill was setting them off more often than not, so I stopped long enough to work on div. Once it maxed, maybe 1 out of 100 pop the trap. The failure I have seen usually involved a bard/rogue trying to open a chest without checking to see if its mechanical, or a caster barely pushing out a detect/remove because once they could get invis off they stopped bothering raising div. Have to agree on the spells though, anything before the greater version is a waste of points.
Lastly: GET YOUR DEFENSE UP BEFORE YOU HIT 50 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. Had yet ANOTHER cleric on Monday that fell like a stuffed animal when he got agro. His AC, depsite uber roxxoring gear, was like 217 or something less than 1/4 of the tank. Of course he wouldn't accept that that was the problem, since as he was wearing plate he should be fine, right? He also, at 46, had never ever cast a lull spell so we wasted 20 minutes trying to find a "puller". Sigh.
I had a trap go off this past weekend that wound up poisoning the whole group. Fortunately only one person died and that was due to him completely panicing. Some simple advice when deciding to engage a possibly trapped chest:
1) Cast resistance buffs on the group before playing around with the trap. This may or may not have any effect, but any chance to resist the effect is worth spending the time and mana.
2) Have your cures memorized. As silly as this sounds I can't tell you the number of times a trap went off and no one had the counter memorized...doh! Anyone that has any counter should memorize it, this shouldn't just be the responsibility of the cleric. The cleric may have a stronger chance of actually removing the trap effect, but doing the entire party at once may be a timing problem. Anyone that can help with the removing of the effect should. (Had a pallly and druid countering poison this weekend and did a very effective job).
3) Don't run! If the trap does go off and you are not far enough away from it, you certainly are going to have problems countering the effect when everyone is running amok through the dungeon. Stick together. It makes curing people easier and corpse recovery far more effective when you KNOW where the corspe is.
1) Cast resistance buffs on the group before playing around with the trap. This may or may not have any effect, but any chance to resist the effect is worth spending the time and mana.
2) Have your cures memorized. As silly as this sounds I can't tell you the number of times a trap went off and no one had the counter memorized...doh! Anyone that has any counter should memorize it, this shouldn't just be the responsibility of the cleric. The cleric may have a stronger chance of actually removing the trap effect, but doing the entire party at once may be a timing problem. Anyone that can help with the removing of the effect should. (Had a pallly and druid countering poison this weekend and did a very effective job).
3) Don't run! If the trap does go off and you are not far enough away from it, you certainly are going to have problems countering the effect when everyone is running amok through the dungeon. Stick together. It makes curing people easier and corpse recovery far more effective when you KNOW where the corspe is.
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"Tell them you suck" was supposed to be a joke. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
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"If you want to nuke make a wizard" or "Rangers can't tank" or "melee skill is useless on a healer" as if they were absolutes is the problem. 9 times out of 10, yes. Otherwise, hell no.
As i noted above i still use the sit and med if below 80% mana as a rule of thumb and most <good> clerics i know do. Yes if you are 65, 100+ AA, FT 15, Yaulp VI and time gear you will be capable of fighting for a full LDoN, i don't have aproblem with that BUT what 65 cleric is going to be looking for advice on a board unless he is an Ebay'er?
at 44 my chanter has no defence but i doubt anyone would say i am a bad chanter <especailly after i mezz the 4 adds and have all of them slowed before the 1st one drops> i have a dmg absorb spell to keep me from taking the initail beats from aggro and i would hope the tank can take the aggro back after that.
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Clerics can't nuke is patently false, there are times when they do it very very well. Against undead, clerics are second only to wizards for many level ranges. At 44, clerics get an undead nuke that hits for 585 for 225 mana while Magicians do 600 for 250, at 65 its 1200 damage for 300 mana for clerics vs undead, 1860 for 474 for magicians, the ratios are almost exactly the same mana/damage-wise and the cleric one casts faster.
I doubt very much if a warrior is going to throw a wobbly at a cleric because they didn't nuke a mob, i am ABSOLUTLY sure that they would if they didn't heal him. That is the core of the matter and absolves all nuking responcibilities, sure it's a nice thing to have but necessary? required? sort after? no not at all.
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Have to agree on the spells though, anything before the greater version is a waste of points.
I admit to not being all too knowledgeable about rune/curse traps and usually assume mechanical traps unless I'm explictly told otherwise. Due to the "reward won't be worth the component cost" mindset, I almost never travel with anyone who actually bought the spells and carries components. Though, if the chance for a misfire is based off Divination skill, shame on you if you haven't maxxed it 
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Toasticle wrote:
And anyone who blows up chests: Whats your div skill? All the chest spells are div based, and the lower your skill the lower your chance of succeeding.
My enchanter's divination skill is maxxed at level 58, I use only the greater version of the trap spells, and I still set the traps off about 25% of the time when I cast on chests.
tarv of the Seven Seas wrote:
at 44 my chanter has no defence but i doubt anyone would say i am a bad chanter <especailly after i mezz the 4 adds and have all of them slowed before the 1st one drops
I wouldn't say you're a bad enchanter, but you certainly are wasting a lot of mana if you're slowing 4 mezzed mobs while the party is beating on a fifth.
Enchanter slows last in the 2 minute range. Unless you're in an incredible DPS group you're going to end up having to re-cast slow because it will wear off on the last mobs before the group has gotten to them.
A better way to do it is to slow the next mob you want the group to go after when the current one is under 50% HP, then when the mob dies, ask the MT to assist you and attack your target next please(always add the please, it helps keep the tanks from thinking you're telling them how to do their job
). That will save you from having to re slow late in the fight, and it will also allow you to time your mezzes so that you don't have to cast as much, thus saving even more mana.
I'm not gonna join the debate on the specific things Toasticle posted but I understand acutely what he's getting at.
Went on a Fear raid 2 weeks ago. Mostly my guild. I SHOULD have recognized a problem when I told the guys which way to run after break-in and was promptly "corrected" by the raid leader.
Long story short. 30 people in raid. 27 of them (including the raid leader) had never even DONE a Fear raid. I was one of the 3 who had.
After the second wipe, I saw something or other from the raid leader saying ot the effect, "well that's how they said to do it on the message boards".
Maybe he misread a post. Or misunderstood it. I had assumed all along that these guys had at least DONE a Fear raid. I shoulda asked. LOL
Moral of the story (and a pet peeve with MB's) is that message boards are great but don't take them for the complete and total truth. They are a tool. Not a Bible and if you have someone in your group or raid who has actual in zone experience, it would behoove you to listen to him.
Edited, Thu Jun 3 14:37:15 2004 by Ralston
Went on a Fear raid 2 weeks ago. Mostly my guild. I SHOULD have recognized a problem when I told the guys which way to run after break-in and was promptly "corrected" by the raid leader.
Long story short. 30 people in raid. 27 of them (including the raid leader) had never even DONE a Fear raid. I was one of the 3 who had.
After the second wipe, I saw something or other from the raid leader saying ot the effect, "well that's how they said to do it on the message boards".
Maybe he misread a post. Or misunderstood it. I had assumed all along that these guys had at least DONE a Fear raid. I shoulda asked. LOL
Moral of the story (and a pet peeve with MB's) is that message boards are great but don't take them for the complete and total truth. They are a tool. Not a Bible and if you have someone in your group or raid who has actual in zone experience, it would behoove you to listen to him.
Edited, Thu Jun 3 14:37:15 2004 by Ralston
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I wouldn't say you're a bad enchanter, but you certainly are wasting a lot of mana if you're slowing 4 mezzed mobs while the party is beating on a fifth.
You are right of course Dan that is the more mana effective method.
Appologies for not being clear.
On that note:
Rangers Can tank if they have the right gear, most Rangers do not have the right gear.
Clerics can Nuke if they have the correct mana regen and/or the tank is uber, most don't have the required mana regen and most tanks aren't uber.
If you plan correctly and have the correct spells chests are safe to open, most people can not afford the spells and even then it takes up valuable time mid adv and it is best to leave untill completeion.
If on completion people do not want to play with said chest they should leave the zone and not be aloud to roll on any rewards.
Casters can max out defence by level 50, but most will be more conserned with leveling and the melees will get pissed off by the said casters taking thier aggro <Us tanks are very protective of our aggro it's ours and we wants it>
and in total good humour and jest
Toastie you suck...
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clerics are not in the group for DPS, sorry but they aren't i can't grasp why you find that a hard consept to understand.
Probably stems from your constant habit of ignoring the entire point and just nitpicking stuff out of context. Had you taken the time to finish the paragraph you partially quoted, you would found this part:
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2 clerics in a group fighting undead means you have a nuker who can take agro far better than someone wearing cloth, and who can take over if the main healer dies or gets agro or mezzed or goes oom or whatever.
I bolded the most important part to help you out. Not once have I ever said that the ONLY healer should play wizard. Never have I said that the healer should nuke INSTEAD of healing. All I have said is that nuking can help in some situations, and being prepared to be able to do it by keeping your skills maxed is important, and that clerics can play the role of DPS in certain specific situations (Against undead). I don't know how you consistantly read completely opposite points.
Edit: What the hell
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at 44 my chanter has no defence but i doubt anyone would say i am a bad chanter
I'll say it: Your chanter sucks. No joking, no ribbing, if you have no defense, you are a liability because you die far faster than a chanter who has maxed his defense and dodge skills. Some really hard fights can be decided in seconds, and if the chanters defense is "hoping" the MA can taunt something off you before you get crushed doesn't work. ESPECIALLY enchanters. The really good ones don't need to hope for anything, they can cast through the hits and get a stun off, then remezz. Because of that, enchanters get hit more than any other int caster, you need to be able to take the hits without folding. How hard you get hit depends on your AC. Whether you can cast through a hit depends on how hard you are getting hit. Channeling through a hit is not that hard when you are getting hit for 3-4%, but when you hear that "crunch" noise every hit and your health drops 15%, you're not going to get the spell off.
Edited, Thu Jun 3 17:46:17 2004 by Toasticle
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