Granted they can be informative. They can be entertaining. But more and more I am finding people in game who, in their attempt to become better players, read alot of message boards and come away with certain "truths" that they only partly understand.
Examples:
- Don't spam taunt. Now, the way taunt works if what you are doing is attempting to hold agro, yes, spamming taunt isn't really going to help and if it's greyed out from clicking in a tough fight and the wizard gains agro, having to wait for it to refresh may result in the wizzies death. BUT: If you don't "spam" it before 50, it won't max. Hitting it once every other fight when it is needed is NOT going to max it. If it's not maxed, you may as well just /shout insults at the mobs for all the good it's going to do. If you have a taunt button spam that mother until you max it (lvl*5). Especially below 20, the mobs don't hit very hard, you can get hit. If someone complains, tell them I said they suck. Which brings me to...
- Rangers can't tank. Or any variation of anything but warriors or knights getting hit. The problem is you NEED to get hit. Alot. Your AC is based both on what you wear and your defense skill. Your cleric could be wearing 100k in bazaar bought plate, but with a defense of 7 you're going to be hearing that "crunch" noise alot when you get agro. The longer you put it off, the worse its going to get. The mobs will hit harder which makes it more difficult to get your defense skill raised... and the lower it is the harder you get hit... etc etc etc. Give me a cleric who can take a couple smacks if he gets agro over one who has laboriously spent 55 levels perfecting agro control so he never gets hit and now has an AC of 250 at 55. And don't think int casters can get away with no defense skill. If your PC group doesn't want you to get hit ever, tell them I said they suck.
- Clerics should sit and med if not healing. Clerics have a whole line of undead nukes that aren't half bad plus stuns and other utility spells. Had a slaughter LDoN a few weeks ago, we were down to about 2 mins with 2 mobs to go. Pulled one, undead, said "Don't worry about healing, burn this sucker down, I'll live we need to finish!".
A cleric_01 casts a spell, but fizzles!
A cleric_01 casts a spell, but fizzles!
A cleric_01 casts a spell, but fizzles!
A cleric_01 casts a spell, but fizzles!
A cleric_01 casts a spell, but fizzles!
A cleric_01 tells the group "OOM"
You have more skills than just alteration/abjuration. Get that evocation skill up. You have a shield and bash skill. Bash can interupt mobs. That healer mob that has CH itself twice? If tanks are ok on health, smack that sucker with your shield! Cast that stun when it starts casting! You have a mace, swing it! Once you get Yaulp 6 you can actually fight and med at once! If your group complains that you cast a nuke, tell them I said they suck.
- Barrels/Hollow tree/Boxes/Bitten Victims/Whatever are little packages of instant death put in LDoN's by SoE to punish the curious. Christ the way some people freak if you even mention opening/smacking one.
"Oooo... chest! Lets see"
"OMFG Don't touch it!"
"What? I have unlock/untrap and remove curse, let's see..."
"NONONO! Don't touch it! My brothers cousin's nephew opened one once and it summoned Veeshan and killed their group and then logged on their other characters and killed them then gave them a virus and made the cat puke on his keyboard! Don't touch them!"
"Uh... ok... we'll wait till the adventure is over I guess"
.
.
.
"Ok, we won, gonna open these..."
"WAIT WAIT LEMME ZONE OUT!"
"...."
"Ok, I'm out"
<Fiddles around with chest> "Cool, +5 str aug"
"Ok, let's roll on it!"
"..."
The chests can have cool stuff. If your group is pressed for time to complete, ok, wait till it's over. The hollow trees/bitten victime/creaking chests CAN spawn 3 dinky mobs, yes, but you can also get group healed, mana restored or a chanter-type pet for the tank or just flat out exp. Don't attack them during a pull, but geez people don't treat them like anti-personel mines either. If you want to open a barrel and the cleric goes drama-queen, tell him I said he sucks.
Anything to add?
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I am starting to question the value of message boards...Follow
Spamming taunt - like any kind of practising - depends on the group you are in and how hard-pressed they are. If you have solid aggro in a sensible group then by all means spam away.
The one key thing you didn't mention is that your advice is for the MA.
What we definitely don't need is every melee in the group spamming taunt.
The point about defense is a good one. Again it is a case of picking your moments.
If you have a spell that uses a discipline then it should be maxed. END OF STORY.
It is so easy to practise that there is simply no excuse whatsoever for being so bad you fizzle continuously. The cleric in the example evidently never used stun either which is also Evocation.
As for Victims etc, Gbaji made the very sensible observation on the chances of a bad outcome quite recently. Most of the outcomes are beneficial or neutral.
Chests/barrels however are in a different category. They can do serious damage and require large amounts of mana to repair, partly because it is group-wide damage. I would always leave them till after and give enough warning for the cleric to load a group heal/cure. Yes I would get seriouly annoyed if someone opened one mid adventure.
As an example we had one in a lowbie dungeon that cast a curse on the group. We had STR amongst other things reduced to 1 and could not move. Nobody had the remove curse spell (which costs more points than we could have made at that level anyway). If we had done this mid adventure it would have been an automatic fail. Doing it after we had won it didn't matter.
The one key thing you didn't mention is that your advice is for the MA.
What we definitely don't need is every melee in the group spamming taunt.
The point about defense is a good one. Again it is a case of picking your moments.
If you have a spell that uses a discipline then it should be maxed. END OF STORY.
It is so easy to practise that there is simply no excuse whatsoever for being so bad you fizzle continuously. The cleric in the example evidently never used stun either which is also Evocation.
As for Victims etc, Gbaji made the very sensible observation on the chances of a bad outcome quite recently. Most of the outcomes are beneficial or neutral.
Chests/barrels however are in a different category. They can do serious damage and require large amounts of mana to repair, partly because it is group-wide damage. I would always leave them till after and give enough warning for the cleric to load a group heal/cure. Yes I would get seriouly annoyed if someone opened one mid adventure.
As an example we had one in a lowbie dungeon that cast a curse on the group. We had STR amongst other things reduced to 1 and could not move. Nobody had the remove curse spell (which costs more points than we could have made at that level anyway). If we had done this mid adventure it would have been an automatic fail. Doing it after we had won it didn't matter.
Wherever I go - there I am.
I think the majority of information given out on these baords are directed at the 50+ player.
which brings me to your points.
Taunt is not something that would be used every other fight even if it where used as you discribed.
It would be used immediatly on the pull to gain initial aggro and at least twice per fight to ensure a large aggro lead <As it puts you 1 more than the highest aggro even it's you.>
Rangers generally after level 50 cannot tank unless they have far superior armour in comparison to the level of mob they are fighting <I.e a 50 ranger with 1150Ac and 4500 hit points would be an effective tank but most rangers at level 50 would have 800 Ac and 2500 hit point and would be a poor MT>
Choising your Mt is about senciblity, i had a monk tanking my mid 30's LDoN yesterday with a warrior and a pally in the group because he was heavily twinked.
In a tight situation a nuking cleric could get a group wiped, as a rule of thumb i sit unless i can maintain a 80%+ mana situation. My primary purpose is to keep the group alive and that is what i consentrate on. I can work on evoke anytime hell while i wait for group i often nuke passing spiderlings to get my skill up.
Why would a cleric use bash to inturrupt spells when they have the 2nd best stun line in the game?
Victims and the like do not pose any threat, however Barrels, caskets, boxes etc are a quick and easy way to a failure if you want to play with them do it at the end.
Anything to add?
Yes, you suck.
which brings me to your points.
Taunt is not something that would be used every other fight even if it where used as you discribed.
It would be used immediatly on the pull to gain initial aggro and at least twice per fight to ensure a large aggro lead <As it puts you 1 more than the highest aggro even it's you.>
Rangers generally after level 50 cannot tank unless they have far superior armour in comparison to the level of mob they are fighting <I.e a 50 ranger with 1150Ac and 4500 hit points would be an effective tank but most rangers at level 50 would have 800 Ac and 2500 hit point and would be a poor MT>
Choising your Mt is about senciblity, i had a monk tanking my mid 30's LDoN yesterday with a warrior and a pally in the group because he was heavily twinked.
In a tight situation a nuking cleric could get a group wiped, as a rule of thumb i sit unless i can maintain a 80%+ mana situation. My primary purpose is to keep the group alive and that is what i consentrate on. I can work on evoke anytime hell while i wait for group i often nuke passing spiderlings to get my skill up.
Why would a cleric use bash to inturrupt spells when they have the 2nd best stun line in the game?
Victims and the like do not pose any threat, however Barrels, caskets, boxes etc are a quick and easy way to a failure if you want to play with them do it at the end.
Anything to add?
Yes, you suck.
You seem to be missing the point entirely. I'm shocked. Message boards seem to view everything in absolutes. Don't spam taunt. Except to max it, then spam it. But don't spam it if the fights are close. But makes sure you max it before you need it. Back and forth back and forth. Sorry, taunt is not gonna get maxed using it twice per fight. And who the heck lull pulls at low level that would require a taunt to "gain" initial agro?? 9 times out of 10 the tank is the puller anyway. Yes at 50 you need to get taunt from the luller, but by then you'll have maxed it...or not because you're not supposed to spam it.
Why would a cleric bash? Because they don't have space for more than 2 stuns at best? which have recast times of 12-18 seconds? Might as well do something other than pick your nose waiting for the buttons to ungray.
Yeah, rangers can't tank at 50, which was not even CLOSE to the point: "You have to get your defense up" The problem is people listening to people like you, not EVER doing ANYTHING unless they have a "real" tank, which means their defense skill never gets anywhere... because they never get hit because god help us all should the level 30 ranger get agro because rangers can't tank dammit! So at 50 we get healers and rangers that when they do get agro get turned into paste because they are getting hit for max every hit. Standing around a level 30ish LDoN for half an hour because we don't have a "tank"... nevermind that we have a ranger, a cleric, a shaman, a rogue and mage... nobody is going to go until they can get a real tank because everyone "knows" rangers can't do it is the norm nowadays.
How you read "Get that evo up, you might need it" and "bash can help in emergencies" as "Play like a wizard and wipe the group" I have no idea. Yay, you nuke spiders. Dunno what for since apparantly there is never a situation where you shouldn't be healing or sitting. I've played with clerics that have your mentality, they sucked. Either no evo skill or never have stuns/nukes loaded, so they "do their job" and CH the tank 3 times against a healer mob that CHeals itself just as often. 3rd Cheal and the cleric gets agro and splatted because... shock... his defense is 19 and dodge is 4.
The POINT is that people are so worried about "Keeping my group alive" that they completely neglect and ignore any other skills. There are TONS of warriors in the game that have 1H slash only because it's "rude" to train up other weapon skills in a group. Rangers and knights who have no 2H skill for the same reason. Rangers and paladins/SK's who have no taunt skill because it's the warriors are supposed to hold agro, not them. Half the casters have defense skills in the teens because if they ever get hit they either quit the group because the MT sucks or get booted because they suck and over agro. Clerics who are useless if they ever have to think on their feet and do something other than stand/CH/Sit because the only 2 skills they have maxed are alteration/abjuration so they don't even bother memming any evo spells.
Lastly, you all need to grow some nuts when it comes to chests. The curses are not insta kill, the dots can be cured easily. If you have remove curse, it's trivial. As I said, if time is an issue, by all means skip them. A 25 collect with 73 minutes to get 5 more is not a rush, but half the players in the game think chests are trapped with tactical nukes. There has not since LDoN came out been a time after I got all 3 chest spells and remove curse that a chest has been more than a minutes diversion. Never, not a single time. Cursed/dotted? Cure, open, loot, go. But then again I can understand how so many groups have problems opening those chests... you need divination skill, which probably 18 people in EQ have maxed.
Why would a cleric bash? Because they don't have space for more than 2 stuns at best? which have recast times of 12-18 seconds? Might as well do something other than pick your nose waiting for the buttons to ungray.
Yeah, rangers can't tank at 50, which was not even CLOSE to the point: "You have to get your defense up" The problem is people listening to people like you, not EVER doing ANYTHING unless they have a "real" tank, which means their defense skill never gets anywhere... because they never get hit because god help us all should the level 30 ranger get agro because rangers can't tank dammit! So at 50 we get healers and rangers that when they do get agro get turned into paste because they are getting hit for max every hit. Standing around a level 30ish LDoN for half an hour because we don't have a "tank"... nevermind that we have a ranger, a cleric, a shaman, a rogue and mage... nobody is going to go until they can get a real tank because everyone "knows" rangers can't do it is the norm nowadays.
How you read "Get that evo up, you might need it" and "bash can help in emergencies" as "Play like a wizard and wipe the group" I have no idea. Yay, you nuke spiders. Dunno what for since apparantly there is never a situation where you shouldn't be healing or sitting. I've played with clerics that have your mentality, they sucked. Either no evo skill or never have stuns/nukes loaded, so they "do their job" and CH the tank 3 times against a healer mob that CHeals itself just as often. 3rd Cheal and the cleric gets agro and splatted because... shock... his defense is 19 and dodge is 4.
The POINT is that people are so worried about "Keeping my group alive" that they completely neglect and ignore any other skills. There are TONS of warriors in the game that have 1H slash only because it's "rude" to train up other weapon skills in a group. Rangers and knights who have no 2H skill for the same reason. Rangers and paladins/SK's who have no taunt skill because it's the warriors are supposed to hold agro, not them. Half the casters have defense skills in the teens because if they ever get hit they either quit the group because the MT sucks or get booted because they suck and over agro. Clerics who are useless if they ever have to think on their feet and do something other than stand/CH/Sit because the only 2 skills they have maxed are alteration/abjuration so they don't even bother memming any evo spells.
Lastly, you all need to grow some nuts when it comes to chests. The curses are not insta kill, the dots can be cured easily. If you have remove curse, it's trivial. As I said, if time is an issue, by all means skip them. A 25 collect with 73 minutes to get 5 more is not a rush, but half the players in the game think chests are trapped with tactical nukes. There has not since LDoN came out been a time after I got all 3 chest spells and remove curse that a chest has been more than a minutes diversion. Never, not a single time. Cursed/dotted? Cure, open, loot, go. But then again I can understand how so many groups have problems opening those chests... you need divination skill, which probably 18 people in EQ have maxed.
Quote:
Why would a cleric bash? Because they don't have space for more than 2 stuns at best? which have recast times of 12-18 seconds?
Bash interupts about 10% of the time so it's not worth relying on.
How you read my post and say that i don't avocate using other calles to tank in plain bad reading skills, here i will link it again so that you can see it one more time.
Quote:
Choising your Mt is about senciblity, i had a monk tanking my mid 30's LDoN yesterday with a warrior and a pally in the group because he was heavily twinked.
Quote:
warriors in the game that have 1H slash only because it's "rude" to train up other weapon skills in a group. Rangers and knights who have no 2H skill for the same reason. Rangers and paladins/SK's who have no taunt skill because it's the warriors are supposed to hold agro, not them.
1. All the warriors i group with flip weapon constantly to maximise thier effectiveness <pulled a caster switching to weapon with stun proc, doh guard dropped switching to gaurd II proc weapon> Any Warrior that passes up on the opertunity to use a CHoS is plain mad.
2. In my experiance it is more likely that a knight neglects 1 Hand weapon rather than 2 handers since the Dps and mitigation are far higher for a knight using 2 handers so your talking rubbish
3. Any knight will have his Taunt maxed they are after all a TANK class, 90% of rangers have maxed thier taunt 5 mins after dinging because they WANT to be a tank class.
4. A pally or Sk could hold aggro of a warrior without once turning on attack or taunting. EVERYONE in EQ <besides you it seems> knows that Knights hold aggro better than warriors.
Quote:
Lastly, you all need to grow some nuts when it comes to chests. The curses are not insta kill, the dots can be cured easily. If you have remove curse, it's trivial.
It took me untill level 38 to gain the points to obtain remove lesser curse and i doubt that the majority of 65 cleric will spend LDoN points on Gtr remove curse over the 1450 point Nro armour.
Rule 1 of LDoN do not play with chest untill after the sucsess, you might well tell your group they suck but the other five will just never invite you back in the group again and rightly so.
Your attitude stinks to high heaven and you show little or no knowlage of why people say these things.
I will enlighten you, I keeps groups running smoothly and stops idiots like you:
Tanking a 55+ LDoN with 750 AC
Casting nukes on 1m and wondering why the group dies because you can't heal when the roamer adds at the last second.
hitting a chest and causing an otherwise simple mission to be a pain in the butt.
EQ should be about calculated risks to improve game enjoyment.
Having a ranger tank when he has the AC/hit points to do it is a good risk
Nuking a mob when you have the mana to throw 3 heals stright of the bounce afterwards is a good risk
hitting a chest when the cleric is FM and has cure poison, disease and cure curse is a good risk.
Calling your group down because they don't want you to behave like an *** id NOT a good risk
I say again, you suck.
Edited, Sun May 30 15:38:18 2004 by tarv
This thread is a good example of what happens when you don't take your medication.
Edited, Sun May 30 15:45:00 2004 by LONGRIFLE
Edited, Sun May 30 15:45:00 2004 by LONGRIFLE
I especially like the "Your attitude stinks", followed up by "idoiot", and "you suck".
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Dead Horse Replies For Dead Horse Issues:
1 - It's all supposed to be in the name of fun. If you're not having fun, why play it?
2 - Everyone has their own style of playing. It might not be "the best" or "ideal" way of playing, but it's their's, and that's what counts.
3 - Take every type of media with a grain of salt.
1 - It's all supposed to be in the name of fun. If you're not having fun, why play it?
2 - Everyone has their own style of playing. It might not be "the best" or "ideal" way of playing, but it's their's, and that's what counts.
3 - Take every type of media with a grain of salt.
Scholar
18 posts
Quote:
3. Any knight will have his Taunt maxed they are after all a TANK class, 90% of rangers have maxed thier taunt 5 mins after dinging because they WANT to be a tank class.
I don't know about others, but I am positive that this ranger doesn't WANT to be a tank. Unbuffed, my hitpoint total is 2771 and my AC is 1042. Not exactly tanking material. On the other hand my ATK is 1207 unbuffed and over 1400 with the right combination of attack buffs. I do however have my taunt maxxed, but only because there are times when a ranger HAS to tank. That of course is after the warrior, pally, sk, or whoever went down during a battle.
Rangers tend to melee in group situations until they get the "holy grails" Endless Quiver and Archery Mastery because they do more damage in melee situations. Bow damage starts picking up around level 55, but doesn't get impressive till after 59 when these two AA skills are aquired. Just because a ranger is doing melee during this time period doesn't mean he wants to be the tank. It just means he gives a crap and wants to be effective.
Slydogma - Karana Warder of the 60th season (Ayonae Ro)
my only comment is on chests and the like
because there is the potential ( no matter how low you think it is) for everyone in the group to get nailed from the attempt to open them then if your group doesnt want you to open them then it would just be plain rude to do it
because there is the potential ( no matter how low you think it is) for everyone in the group to get nailed from the attempt to open them then if your group doesnt want you to open them then it would just be plain rude to do it
I jump in with my pet time to time to try to raise my skills up. I jump in front of a mob I just nuked the hell out of and tell the mt to step back a sec so the healer can get a good heal in on them. Squishy I am, but take a hit I will.
On my ranger hell yes I will spam taunt. I want the mobs attention permanently the whole fight. I know many tanks that are rangers above 50. I agree much after 50 it gets alot more difficult, but do not think of selling them short on that point.
I know a few battle clerics and am always happy to see them get up and strut their stuff around.
And about chests. I have never been in a group that avoided them like the plague. If anyone even mentions it, it is agreed to get the win first and come back to them after.
Of course you will find misinformation. But unless they are completely braindead and have no sense to try something and learn from experience, people will take some advice and run with it, even if it is not the best.
On my ranger hell yes I will spam taunt. I want the mobs attention permanently the whole fight. I know many tanks that are rangers above 50. I agree much after 50 it gets alot more difficult, but do not think of selling them short on that point.
I know a few battle clerics and am always happy to see them get up and strut their stuff around.
And about chests. I have never been in a group that avoided them like the plague. If anyone even mentions it, it is agreed to get the win first and come back to them after.
Of course you will find misinformation. But unless they are completely braindead and have no sense to try something and learn from experience, people will take some advice and run with it, even if it is not the best.
Ok, I dunno if you are this dense or just like arguing. I will repeat since you just skimmed my first post apprantly:
To spell it out more clearly since that didn't do it: I am not talking about level 60-65's. I am not talking about elemental uber l33t players. I am talking about newer or inexperienced players who don't know the game that well. I am talking about the 20's and 30's and sometimes 40's players who have gimped themselves because they only see "Ranger's can't tank" without understanding what the hell that even means. The clerics who read over and over and over about their job is to sit down and med if they are not standing and healing.
I am not talking about playing a tank mage and throwing nukes around like a wizard, I am talking about the large number who couldn't cast a stun if the groups life depended on it because they keep getting told DON'T NUKE so they have no casting skill to even attempt it. They never get hit because it's a friggin cardinal sin to get agro, they have no weapon skills because they have it drilled into their head how useless it is and when, god help us, they get to 60 and get agro they die in seconds because they have no AC whatsoever.
I'm not talking about how awesome you are and a shining example of an EQ player, I'm talking about giving the wrong message to new players There's more to the game than single lull pulling over and over and over till you hit 65 with the optimum group setup where everyone does their predetermined role in the group. Never faltering from your class "role" means the necessary underlying skills that would even allow you to do something else IF THE NEED AROSE are in the toilet. Only 10% chance to interupt? That's better than 0% chance because the knight/warrior got mezzed or charmed or feared or killed and the mob is casting a heal again while you don't have a stun loaded or are out of mana. Then it can be the difference between pulling it through by the skin of your teeth and wiping because if you have nothing to heal then all you can do is stand there.
Got it? That clear now? Are you going to recount how great of a player you are again?
Quote:
But more and more I am finding people in game who, in their attempt to become better players, read alot of message boards and come away with certain "truths" that they only partly understand.
To spell it out more clearly since that didn't do it: I am not talking about level 60-65's. I am not talking about elemental uber l33t players. I am talking about newer or inexperienced players who don't know the game that well. I am talking about the 20's and 30's and sometimes 40's players who have gimped themselves because they only see "Ranger's can't tank" without understanding what the hell that even means. The clerics who read over and over and over about their job is to sit down and med if they are not standing and healing.
I am not talking about playing a tank mage and throwing nukes around like a wizard, I am talking about the large number who couldn't cast a stun if the groups life depended on it because they keep getting told DON'T NUKE so they have no casting skill to even attempt it. They never get hit because it's a friggin cardinal sin to get agro, they have no weapon skills because they have it drilled into their head how useless it is and when, god help us, they get to 60 and get agro they die in seconds because they have no AC whatsoever.
I'm not talking about how awesome you are and a shining example of an EQ player, I'm talking about giving the wrong message to new players There's more to the game than single lull pulling over and over and over till you hit 65 with the optimum group setup where everyone does their predetermined role in the group. Never faltering from your class "role" means the necessary underlying skills that would even allow you to do something else IF THE NEED AROSE are in the toilet. Only 10% chance to interupt? That's better than 0% chance because the knight/warrior got mezzed or charmed or feared or killed and the mob is casting a heal again while you don't have a stun loaded or are out of mana. Then it can be the difference between pulling it through by the skin of your teeth and wiping because if you have nothing to heal then all you can do is stand there.
Got it? That clear now? Are you going to recount how great of a player you are again?
42 posts
/shrug I dont see any of those problems when I am playing on my twinks. So I dont see what your big problem is. Speaking of which what do you hope to acomplish with this post if you think the boards are bad then why come to one to post it?
I think there is some truth to what Toasticle is saying. A large chunk of whats said on the message boards is intended to make well experienced high level players even better.
Much of the time this advice does not apply to players lvls 1-50. This time is supposed to be a learning time where people experiment and really get to know their class, however, everyone thinks they are an expert on every other class. If you do something strictly outside of the three things that are hammered on for your class on the boards in your all of a sudden you are TeH SuXXorS NewB!!!11 LOLROFMDTSLJF!!!1! U SHULD DO XYZ thats ALL UR CLASS CAN DO!!!11!
It's good advice to try different things as you are learning your class. If something is not working don't do it over and over again but take some time to test the capabilities and boundries of your class.
The boards have done allot of good for EQ but they are also partly responsible for taking much of the versitility from each of the classes. Take some time to learn your toon. Its more than just a race to 65.
Much of the time this advice does not apply to players lvls 1-50. This time is supposed to be a learning time where people experiment and really get to know their class, however, everyone thinks they are an expert on every other class. If you do something strictly outside of the three things that are hammered on for your class on the boards in your all of a sudden you are TeH SuXXorS NewB!!!11 LOLROFMDTSLJF!!!1! U SHULD DO XYZ thats ALL UR CLASS CAN DO!!!11!
It's good advice to try different things as you are learning your class. If something is not working don't do it over and over again but take some time to test the capabilities and boundries of your class.
The boards have done allot of good for EQ but they are also partly responsible for taking much of the versitility from each of the classes. Take some time to learn your toon. Its more than just a race to 65.
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Quote:
No they are instant fail though.
It took me untill level 38 to gain the points to obtain remove lesser curse and i doubt that the majority of 65 cleric will spend LDoN points on Gtr remove curse over the 1450 point Nro armour.
It took me untill level 38 to gain the points to obtain remove lesser curse and i doubt that the majority of 65 cleric will spend LDoN points on Gtr remove curse over the 1450 point Nro armour.
'Cept they took away my floaty ghosts.. grr
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I completely understand your point, Toasticle !!!
let me use your ranger example as evidence:
I have been playing a ranger for 5 years now. I have 100+ aa's all invested in offensive and defensive capabilities. when cleric buffed I have 5k hp's (dang near 6k shammy buffed on top) my ac is 1200+ and my attack without any but self buffage is 1490. Yeah I do have some decent gear, plenty of attack/regen/ac augs but the point is I CAN TANK, and I hate being told I cannot ... more than half the LDoN's I do, I am the MT and someone always questions why we have a ranger mt ... I do find it amusing when they get their 51 points at the end of the adventure followed by an "I told you so" message from me. Boards are great to learn from but until you have actually TRIED something you read about, you will never know the truth behind the words.
let me use your ranger example as evidence:
I have been playing a ranger for 5 years now. I have 100+ aa's all invested in offensive and defensive capabilities. when cleric buffed I have 5k hp's (dang near 6k shammy buffed on top) my ac is 1200+ and my attack without any but self buffage is 1490. Yeah I do have some decent gear, plenty of attack/regen/ac augs but the point is I CAN TANK, and I hate being told I cannot ... more than half the LDoN's I do, I am the MT and someone always questions why we have a ranger mt ... I do find it amusing when they get their 51 points at the end of the adventure followed by an "I told you so" message from me. Boards are great to learn from but until you have actually TRIED something you read about, you will never know the truth behind the words.
Rangers need to keep their defensive skills and taunt abilities fully trained through all levels, not because they are main tanks, but because they are very effective short term offtanks.
This is the role they should be aiming to fill.
When the **** hits the fan and someone has to taunt a mobs(s) off the Chanter or Cleric and hold it for a while if there is not a Paladin available to do the job, then it becomes the Ranger's job.
A ranger has Flame Lick, Tangling Weeds and of course normal snare and taunt, he/she should also have the old standbyes, beg and disarm fully trained. And later he/she will have Weaponshield.
One of the worst things that can happen to a group/raid is to have uncontrolled mobs loose in camp. I'm sure everyone has had the experience where your MA and 2nd MA are holding down a mob and there is still one or two mobs dashing from chanter to cleric to druid interupting and beating the hell out of them. This is where the Ranger becomes invaluable, he/she can grab aggro and get it locked down, pull the mobs clear of the casters and make some time for them to get things back under control.
At the worst the Ranger can hold them with Weaponshield until the cleric has camped.
If as a Ranger you do not have enough AC and defensive skills to fill this role, you are not reaching your full potential. To do this of course you have to practice, which means spending some time tanking and getting hit and mashing the taunt button. (Better make sure that your evoc, channeling and alt skills are maxed as well).
This is the role they should be aiming to fill.
When the **** hits the fan and someone has to taunt a mobs(s) off the Chanter or Cleric and hold it for a while if there is not a Paladin available to do the job, then it becomes the Ranger's job.
A ranger has Flame Lick, Tangling Weeds and of course normal snare and taunt, he/she should also have the old standbyes, beg and disarm fully trained. And later he/she will have Weaponshield.
One of the worst things that can happen to a group/raid is to have uncontrolled mobs loose in camp. I'm sure everyone has had the experience where your MA and 2nd MA are holding down a mob and there is still one or two mobs dashing from chanter to cleric to druid interupting and beating the hell out of them. This is where the Ranger becomes invaluable, he/she can grab aggro and get it locked down, pull the mobs clear of the casters and make some time for them to get things back under control.
At the worst the Ranger can hold them with Weaponshield until the cleric has camped.
If as a Ranger you do not have enough AC and defensive skills to fill this role, you are not reaching your full potential. To do this of course you have to practice, which means spending some time tanking and getting hit and mashing the taunt button. (Better make sure that your evoc, channeling and alt skills are maxed as well).
Toasticle wrote:
Granted they can be informative. They can be entertaining. But more and more I am finding people in game who, in their attempt to become better players, read alot of message boards and come away with certain "truths" that they only partly understand.
I understand your frustration but is it really the fault of the boards(and the regular posters on it) if people "come away with certain "truths" that they only partly understand"?
After all, most of the regular posters here I think would readily admit that there are no absolutes in a game. Circumstances can change a lot of the rules.
Quote:
he/she should also have the old standbyes, beg and disarm fully trained
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
he/she should also have the old standbyes, beg and disarm fully trained
Hehe, some sort of nice catch 22.
So how do I "unlearn" a skill?
Actually, I had always understood it to be a random reaction, not just on a fail, how certain of this are you Jophiel?
Not especially. Just a factoid picked up from Steel Warriors. Or rather from people quoting from Steel Warriors. So it's about as reputable as me saying my cousin's friend's babysitter once bought a dog in Mexico that turned out to be a giant rat 
Seriously though, the theory is sound. I imagine (note qualifier) that Beg works kind of like Lull or Pickpocket:
(1) Did you succeed? If not go, to 2
(2) If you failed, check against some variable (be it DEX, CHA or random chance) to see if you aggro
I've only played with Beg a little, but my responses are always Get money, Get Nothing or Get Nothing & Get Aggro. I've never, ever gotten money and gotten pounded. So it stands to reason that the higher the skill, the more you suceed (get money) and the lower your chance of getting pounded.
Edited, Mon May 31 03:39:41 2004 by Jophiel
Seriously though, the theory is sound. I imagine (note qualifier) that Beg works kind of like Lull or Pickpocket:
(1) Did you succeed? If not go, to 2
(2) If you failed, check against some variable (be it DEX, CHA or random chance) to see if you aggro
I've only played with Beg a little, but my responses are always Get money, Get Nothing or Get Nothing & Get Aggro. I've never, ever gotten money and gotten pounded. So it stands to reason that the higher the skill, the more you suceed (get money) and the lower your chance of getting pounded.
Edited, Mon May 31 03:39:41 2004 by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
A bit late coming in this but I have my thoughts on those issues brought up by the original poster.
This is absolute not true. I have had many a LDoN adventures as well as BoT encounters at higher level with not only Ranger tanking, I had a Rogue tanking as well. Granted, you don't go in to a raid situation and expect Rangers to tank. However, given I had to wait another 30 mins waiting for a tank or we can do an easy LDoN with Ranger tanking, I would choose the latter. With a proper slower and a good cleric, you can do that with a ranger. I have done this a few time. I even had to have a Rogue tank, granted he was level 65 with over 150 AAs, when our tank went LD and didn't come back for 15 mins. He survived as a tank the whole time.
Again, this is highly debatable. I have fair size mana pool, over 4500, and FT15. With any mind buffs, usually encounter I rarely go below 80m the entire time. When we get a bad pull with multiple mobs, that's the only time I get challenged for mana. I usually start off with Mark of King on the mob. I use stuns and roots if no other CCs are available. When we have a mob almost down and puller pulls another a bit fast, I use nuke to finish off the first mob so we can go on to the next one. There is no reason why Clerics should sit down and only heal or med. Absolutely you should have everything maxed as much as you can so you don't fizzle often.
My thoughts.
Taushar
Quote:
Rangers can't tank.
This is absolute not true. I have had many a LDoN adventures as well as BoT encounters at higher level with not only Ranger tanking, I had a Rogue tanking as well. Granted, you don't go in to a raid situation and expect Rangers to tank. However, given I had to wait another 30 mins waiting for a tank or we can do an easy LDoN with Ranger tanking, I would choose the latter. With a proper slower and a good cleric, you can do that with a ranger. I have done this a few time. I even had to have a Rogue tank, granted he was level 65 with over 150 AAs, when our tank went LD and didn't come back for 15 mins. He survived as a tank the whole time.
Quote:
Clerics should sit and med if not healing.
Again, this is highly debatable. I have fair size mana pool, over 4500, and FT15. With any mind buffs, usually encounter I rarely go below 80m the entire time. When we get a bad pull with multiple mobs, that's the only time I get challenged for mana. I usually start off with Mark of King on the mob. I use stuns and roots if no other CCs are available. When we have a mob almost down and puller pulls another a bit fast, I use nuke to finish off the first mob so we can go on to the next one. There is no reason why Clerics should sit down and only heal or med. Absolutely you should have everything maxed as much as you can so you don't fizzle often.
My thoughts.
Taushar
I'll add something as well (since I've been incomunicado all weekend):
As to the chests in LDoNs. I still say that any group that messes with them during the adventure is nuts. Even if you have the right classes, it's still a danger that shouldn't be taken IMO.
I've seen chests explode and kill half the group instantly. No amount of having remove curse on hand will help with that.
The worst is the "drunk bomb", and you'll get hit with on occasion. Basically, it affects you with drunkeness. This is not a curse, or poison, or any other kind of effect that can be removed. Only time will fix it. Having half your group weaving around and unable to see, move, or cast spells for 20+ minutes is a pretty big dealbreaker for an LDoN.
While I agree in principle that sometimes advice is overly rigid in nature, the fact is that a new player simply is not going to have the experience with the game to be able to figure out when the right time is to do something. In the real world, everything is dependant on the situation. The whole point of the "hard and fast rules" is that if you follow them to the letter, you wont hurt anything. Learning when to break those rules is something that takes experience with the game. Until then, learning to med when not casting, and use tank classes to tank, and avoid chests in LDoNs are all still valid advice. You wont *fail* at EQ if you follow them.
As to the chests in LDoNs. I still say that any group that messes with them during the adventure is nuts. Even if you have the right classes, it's still a danger that shouldn't be taken IMO.
I've seen chests explode and kill half the group instantly. No amount of having remove curse on hand will help with that.
The worst is the "drunk bomb", and you'll get hit with on occasion. Basically, it affects you with drunkeness. This is not a curse, or poison, or any other kind of effect that can be removed. Only time will fix it. Having half your group weaving around and unable to see, move, or cast spells for 20+ minutes is a pretty big dealbreaker for an LDoN.
While I agree in principle that sometimes advice is overly rigid in nature, the fact is that a new player simply is not going to have the experience with the game to be able to figure out when the right time is to do something. In the real world, everything is dependant on the situation. The whole point of the "hard and fast rules" is that if you follow them to the letter, you wont hurt anything. Learning when to break those rules is something that takes experience with the game. Until then, learning to med when not casting, and use tank classes to tank, and avoid chests in LDoNs are all still valid advice. You wont *fail* at EQ if you follow them.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
On the Rangers can't tank thing, it is absolutely gear and skill dependant.
I too have tanked in HoH and Tactics when the MA has gone LD for a period or we had multiples arrive in camp, with 1250 AC and 4500 HP it is just doable, I also have Combat Agility 3.
However, compared to our usual tank you would think that it was a Druid tanking, I hate the old "mana sponge" tag as much as any other ranger but the fact is we soak up mana faster than a lizard drinking
It seems that on "average" Rangers now handle damage about as well as a Monk, perhaps a little better, our regular Monk is equipped at about the same level as me and two levels higher, we each seem to need about the same amount of healing.
I too have tanked in HoH and Tactics when the MA has gone LD for a period or we had multiples arrive in camp, with 1250 AC and 4500 HP it is just doable, I also have Combat Agility 3.
However, compared to our usual tank you would think that it was a Druid tanking, I hate the old "mana sponge" tag as much as any other ranger but the fact is we soak up mana faster than a lizard drinking
It seems that on "average" Rangers now handle damage about as well as a Monk, perhaps a little better, our regular Monk is equipped at about the same level as me and two levels higher, we each seem to need about the same amount of healing.
There's another issue to consider with the "ranger tanking" bit. This is just something I've observed. I can't say it's 100% true, since I've hardly done a detailed study. However, my observations seem to bear this out. Um... This has nothing to do with the OP, but is kind of interesting when we discuss ranger tanking.
With each of the last several releases, there have been "sets" of armor and gear, generally divided into different types based on the base type of armor (cloth, leather, chain, plate). What I've noticed is that armors are more expensive/rare as you go up in type (cloth easier/cheaper then leather, leather easier/cheaper then chain, chain easier/cheaper then plate).
What gets really interesting is that as each expansion comes out, there are both single bits and sets that are a step above what was in the last expansion, usually at several "levels" (general relative difficulty within that particular expansion). What often happens is that the chain from one expansion is easier to get then the plate from the previous expansion(s). And in many cases it's *better* then that harder-to-get earlier plate.
I've seen this on several occasions. I've seen raid drops that were chain class armor, that is better then the plate I've got, but we're not yet "good enough" to kill the mobs that drop the plate armor of the same level as the chain. The end result is that often rangers can and will have *better* armor at a particular level then the plate classes. It's more then a bit discouraging actually. Um... and it's made worse because often armor that can be worn by both plate and chain classes will be awarded to a chain wearer first with the idea that "plate classes get to wear better armor". Um... Yeah. So in a month, when we get all our rangers, shamans, and rogues geared up, we can go get plate for our tanks... (semi tounge in cheek, but it really does seem that way sometimes).
Do this experiment if you're interested: Go to the bazaar. Go through each armor slot location. Plug in paladin first, then ranger. Compare what you can get for the same prices on each location. I'll bet you anything that while the absolute *top* of each catagory is better for the paladin, if you compare price ranges (say: 1-5k, then 5-10k, then 10-50k, etc), you'll find that you can always find a more cost effective armor in the ranger armor then the paladin.
Just something I noticed while doing some bazaar shopping a couple weeks ago. For someone on any kind of budget, it's actually easier and cheaper IMO to gear up a ranger then a paladin (haven't checked other plate classes, but I assume they are similar).
Not that this still makes a ranger "better". Just explaining that levels of gear can make a huge difference, and it's a bit easier to hit that with some classes then others. Rangers still lag behind in defense and parry skills, and will generally have fewer HPs (although again, it's *easier* to find nice +hp chain then plate right now. Go figure).
With each of the last several releases, there have been "sets" of armor and gear, generally divided into different types based on the base type of armor (cloth, leather, chain, plate). What I've noticed is that armors are more expensive/rare as you go up in type (cloth easier/cheaper then leather, leather easier/cheaper then chain, chain easier/cheaper then plate).
What gets really interesting is that as each expansion comes out, there are both single bits and sets that are a step above what was in the last expansion, usually at several "levels" (general relative difficulty within that particular expansion). What often happens is that the chain from one expansion is easier to get then the plate from the previous expansion(s). And in many cases it's *better* then that harder-to-get earlier plate.
I've seen this on several occasions. I've seen raid drops that were chain class armor, that is better then the plate I've got, but we're not yet "good enough" to kill the mobs that drop the plate armor of the same level as the chain. The end result is that often rangers can and will have *better* armor at a particular level then the plate classes. It's more then a bit discouraging actually. Um... and it's made worse because often armor that can be worn by both plate and chain classes will be awarded to a chain wearer first with the idea that "plate classes get to wear better armor". Um... Yeah. So in a month, when we get all our rangers, shamans, and rogues geared up, we can go get plate for our tanks... (semi tounge in cheek, but it really does seem that way sometimes).
Do this experiment if you're interested: Go to the bazaar. Go through each armor slot location. Plug in paladin first, then ranger. Compare what you can get for the same prices on each location. I'll bet you anything that while the absolute *top* of each catagory is better for the paladin, if you compare price ranges (say: 1-5k, then 5-10k, then 10-50k, etc), you'll find that you can always find a more cost effective armor in the ranger armor then the paladin.
Just something I noticed while doing some bazaar shopping a couple weeks ago. For someone on any kind of budget, it's actually easier and cheaper IMO to gear up a ranger then a paladin (haven't checked other plate classes, but I assume they are similar).
Not that this still makes a ranger "better". Just explaining that levels of gear can make a huge difference, and it's a bit easier to hit that with some classes then others. Rangers still lag behind in defense and parry skills, and will generally have fewer HPs (although again, it's *easier* to find nice +hp chain then plate right now. Go figure).
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Yes, you are probably right Gbaji, I regularly see very strange anomalies with chain armor. For example, people seem to consider the Veksar Dark Mail chain tunic as trash, yet for the ease of getting and the stats, it is a superb piece and to replace it for my cleric I had to go to the level of Blessed full Mithril Breastplate, and 10 times the price!
In fact the pricing is so ridiculous I never bothered trying to sell it, just stuck it on my level 1 Rogue mule, a terrible waste really.
In fact the pricing is so ridiculous I never bothered trying to sell it, just stuck it on my level 1 Rogue mule, a terrible waste really.
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