Now that i am at a level where my role seems to be primarily Tanking <pac no longer effective> i was thinking about switching to 1hs and shielg to maximise my HP/AC.
I have narrowed it down to 3 choises
Wind-worn Handblade
Sword of the Bloodsworn
Adjutents saber
All are within my budget.
i favour the windworn due to the AC but am i pushing the delay to low and risking reposte damage?
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On the Paladin's of Norrath board this is a hotly debated topic. Overall most people seem to agree that using a fast 1h and a shield is BAD for tanking but good for of tanking/dps from behind. Yes it doesn't make any sense but they 50-200hp you gain are easily negated by 1) Your lower dps=longer fights and 2) increased riposte due to increased frequency of attacks from the front.
Sadly right now, 2h is really the way to go if tanking (you want dmg> dly but if you can get that dly over 40 is will help with riposte and dmg bonus). If you are behind the monster then shields help alot more and you dont have to worry about riposte- so a 1h/shield is useful.
Sadly right now, 2h is really the way to go if tanking (you want dmg> dly but if you can get that dly over 40 is will help with riposte and dmg bonus). If you are behind the monster then shields help alot more and you dont have to worry about riposte- so a 1h/shield is useful.
Oh i have a good 2 hander Narandi's lance but my AC is jumping by 45 when i switch to shield and it seems to be making a difference in the LDoN that i am doing.
but i am a little puzzled by your arguement on DPS.
My DPS with my 2 hander is much higher than using a 1 hander, better damage/delay ratio and high damage bonus.
*edit for typo's.
Edited, Sat May 22 02:55:41 2004 by tarv
but i am a little puzzled by your arguement on DPS.
My DPS with my 2 hander is much higher than using a 1 hander, better damage/delay ratio and high damage bonus.
*edit for typo's.
Edited, Sat May 22 02:55:41 2004 by tarv
Can't really comment on pally tanking to much, but from a warrior's perspective, and comparing those 3 weapons...
The Sword of the Bloodsworn holds nice aggro. It's fast enough (1 delay off from Wind-worn) to swing often, the ratio is decent for your damage doing purposes, but most importantly is the proc (compared to these 3 weapons). 75DD + stun = good aggro. (Which is why the pallies I've seen tank, use their stuns to aggro lock).
Compared to a very close ratio on the Wind-Worn, the difference in procs will make the deal. (SotBS tends to be a bit cheaper too). (Wind-Worn proc is a 60DD no stun).
Don't get Adjundant's if you want to tank ;)
Effect: Ethereal Stun
2: Stun(1.00 sec/65)
3: Decrease Hate by 200
The proc on it is probably not what you want...even with a stun, decreasing hate is bad for tanking.
Again, take this with a grain of salt, coming from a warrior's perspective on the three weapons on their own. Pally tanking is notably different than warrior tanking.
The Sword of the Bloodsworn holds nice aggro. It's fast enough (1 delay off from Wind-worn) to swing often, the ratio is decent for your damage doing purposes, but most importantly is the proc (compared to these 3 weapons). 75DD + stun = good aggro. (Which is why the pallies I've seen tank, use their stuns to aggro lock).
Compared to a very close ratio on the Wind-Worn, the difference in procs will make the deal. (SotBS tends to be a bit cheaper too). (Wind-Worn proc is a 60DD no stun).
Don't get Adjundant's if you want to tank ;)
Effect: Ethereal Stun
2: Stun(1.00 sec/65)
3: Decrease Hate by 200
The proc on it is probably not what you want...even with a stun, decreasing hate is bad for tanking.
Again, take this with a grain of salt, coming from a warrior's perspective on the three weapons on their own. Pally tanking is notably different than warrior tanking.
Hoestly, there really isn't much reason for a paladin to use a 1h+sheild, especially at the higher levels. If you are behind a mob (not tanking), then a 2h weapon will do more damage, and the extra AC/HP you might have from the 1h+shield is irrelevant anyway. If you are in front of the mob (tanking), then the extra ripostes you'll take from a faster weapon will generally counteract any benefit you gain from the extra AC/HP of the 1h+shield combo.
Using the 1h+shield combo when tanking likely just reduces the amount of damage you are doing, and not much else. I know if *feels* like you are better at tanking with the sheild, but parses have consistently shown that you really aren't. I actually suspect that's mob dependant though. Theoretically, if you are fighting mobs with a wide damage range, the extra mitigation from the shield AC should make up for riposte damage (and probably does), it's just that figuring out which mobs you should use a shield against just isn't worth the trouble IMO.
If you really want to use a 1h+shield combo, don't worry about ratio too much (you've already decided to reduce your damage by equiping a 1h weapon, right?). Just use a slow 1h weapon and a big beefy shield. After all, if you job is just to tank, then your damage really isn't that important. Unfortunately, it's hard to find really slow 1h weapons...
About the only reason I ever equip a shield is if I'm fighting mobs with AEs, and I really need that extra slot for resists. Other then that, I just keep a big beefy 2h weapon and go to town.
Using the 1h+shield combo when tanking likely just reduces the amount of damage you are doing, and not much else. I know if *feels* like you are better at tanking with the sheild, but parses have consistently shown that you really aren't. I actually suspect that's mob dependant though. Theoretically, if you are fighting mobs with a wide damage range, the extra mitigation from the shield AC should make up for riposte damage (and probably does), it's just that figuring out which mobs you should use a shield against just isn't worth the trouble IMO.
If you really want to use a 1h+shield combo, don't worry about ratio too much (you've already decided to reduce your damage by equiping a 1h weapon, right?). Just use a slow 1h weapon and a big beefy shield. After all, if you job is just to tank, then your damage really isn't that important. Unfortunately, it's hard to find really slow 1h weapons...
About the only reason I ever equip a shield is if I'm fighting mobs with AEs, and I really need that extra slot for resists. Other then that, I just keep a big beefy 2h weapon and go to town.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Why on earth would a Paladin be bothering with warrior/ranger crappy swords like these?
Don't you guys get the very best one handers in the game? Stuff like;
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17039
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17160
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=11927
PS... Of the ones you have listed, the Adjutents Saber would clearly be the best.
Edited, Sun May 23 20:39:14 2004 by Iluien
Don't you guys get the very best one handers in the game? Stuff like;
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17039
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=17160
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=11927
PS... Of the ones you have listed, the Adjutents Saber would clearly be the best.
Edited, Sun May 23 20:39:14 2004 by Iluien
adjutants is stilla net positive haste
I agree with Iluien, as a knight, dump those ranger weapons. Longblade of Vitality, Specter of Lightning (300pp on my server) , both good ratio and not really that 'fast' so you don't need to worry about excessive (spell?) riposit with them.
I like 1h + shield for the look and the ability to bash. Plus, the AC / HP gain from them can't be ignored if you are tanking mobs close to or above your level, or without a high % slow. Unless you have 1700+ AC and 8k+ hp, I say every little bit of AC/HP helps.
2h weapons do more damage thus shorten the fight. True, but how much dmg we are talking about here? Let's take a very common weapon, War Marshell's Blade for example, 34 / 28, do about what, 60 dps from front? Longblade of vitality, 28 / 25 + shield bash do about 50 dps if I remember right. (read some parsing long time agro, I may not have the exact figure here but shouldn't be too far off). Yes, there is a dps difference but very little with a good 1h knight weapon.
It is more of a personal preference to choose between 1h + shield, or 2h stytle. They are pretty balanced.
Edited, Mon May 24 06:18:21 2004 by Assailant
I like 1h + shield for the look and the ability to bash. Plus, the AC / HP gain from them can't be ignored if you are tanking mobs close to or above your level, or without a high % slow. Unless you have 1700+ AC and 8k+ hp, I say every little bit of AC/HP helps.
2h weapons do more damage thus shorten the fight. True, but how much dmg we are talking about here? Let's take a very common weapon, War Marshell's Blade for example, 34 / 28, do about what, 60 dps from front? Longblade of vitality, 28 / 25 + shield bash do about 50 dps if I remember right. (read some parsing long time agro, I may not have the exact figure here but shouldn't be too far off). Yes, there is a dps difference but very little with a good 1h knight weapon.
It is more of a personal preference to choose between 1h + shield, or 2h stytle. They are pretty balanced.
Edited, Mon May 24 06:18:21 2004 by Assailant
Quote:
Overall most people seem to agree that using a fast 1h and a shield is BAD for tanking but good for of tanking/dps from behind.
could we have that in english please?
I think what he is trying to say is using 1HS + Bash from the front gives the mob (via the bash attack) another opportunity for a riposite. When attacking from behind the mob doesn't get the opportunity to riposite (to my understanding).
People have become way to worried about repost damage. Unless the damage that you are taking from repost is more that 15% of your HP, you should be ok with using whatever weapon setup gives you the best dps/aggro
Ok for some reason DPS seems to be mentioned alot here, let me make it clear for everyone.
I DO NOT CARE WHAT MY DPS IS.
i am a tank, DPS is to me irrelevant.
I have borrowed a Wind-worn Handblade from a friend and it makes a 50 AC and 60 hit point difference. i used it for a LDoN and i got reposted twice in a fight on 2 occasions and generally once for 70-170 damage, the cleric said the he had to heal less using the 1HS/Shield combo so that is the weapon i will use now. <bought one for 10k>
I will continue to use 2HP in tier 2+ as the reposte are more frequent and for more damage.
I DO NOT CARE WHAT MY DPS IS.
i am a tank, DPS is to me irrelevant.
I have borrowed a Wind-worn Handblade from a friend and it makes a 50 AC and 60 hit point difference. i used it for a LDoN and i got reposted twice in a fight on 2 occasions and generally once for 70-170 damage, the cleric said the he had to heal less using the 1HS/Shield combo so that is the weapon i will use now. <bought one for 10k>
I will continue to use 2HP in tier 2+ as the reposte are more frequent and for more damage.
Quote:
People have become way to worried about repost damage. Unless the damage that you are taking from riposte is more that 15% of your HP, you should be ok with using whatever weapon setup gives you the best dps/aggro
I am VERY worried about riposte damage at my stage in the game. I am running 7400 hp raid buffed and fighting stuff that max hits 500 up to 900 (with proc!) and the ONLY reason I die while tanking is damage spikes due to ripostes. If a 900 hitter gets a lucky quad that drops 1/2 my hp THEN adds another riposte (maybe with a bonus proc!) then I am in deep do do. Riposte damage in Tier 3+ is VERY significant.
I agree that prior to mobs hitting for 500+ it is not as important.
And you should always optimize DPS the best you can. It is definatly not your main job, but faster kills= less healing.
I used a 1h/shield combo for a while and it did not help at all, even with the 100 more hp and 50 more ac. One riposte from the faster weapon/shield bash would negate any & all bonus (and it is very likely you will get more than 1 riposte/fight using fast 1h + shield). When using a 1h/shield from the REAR though (off tanking/2nd tank) it is useful to stun/interrupt.
But that is just the numbers. Remember it is a GAME and do what you want to have fun 8)
In my opinion (that of someone who has never played a tanking class, unless you count my ranger!) if you're not worried about DPS (as you of course have stated) and at a stage where your LDoN mobs stil go down very quickly, then a good shield with plenty of HP/AC would help. I always thought it would be nice for the two knight classes to get extra AC bonuses for using shields, since it seems to be more in character with the heavily-armored knight stereotype.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
If you really dig this topic, it has been covered most comprehensively here
In summary, and in general: For knight classes, up until level 55 or so, a 1hander plus shield is a viable set-up, assuming similar ratio weapons.
Post 55, a 2 hander is more effective - do more damage AND take less damage.
In summary, and in general: For knight classes, up until level 55 or so, a 1hander plus shield is a viable set-up, assuming similar ratio weapons.
Post 55, a 2 hander is more effective - do more damage AND take less damage.
Has anyone actually tested the adjutent's saber to see if the proc information on the website is correct?
I've noticed that the saber has a pretty strong snap aggro effect, and over the course of a fight actually builds a rather large amount of aggro(with the sword I can usually hold aggro just fine with few cast stuns thrown in).
Could it be that maybe the effect should be listed as INCREASE hate by 200, rather than decrease? After all that does seem to fit more with a stun proc.
I've noticed that the saber has a pretty strong snap aggro effect, and over the course of a fight actually builds a rather large amount of aggro(with the sword I can usually hold aggro just fine with few cast stuns thrown in).
Could it be that maybe the effect should be listed as INCREASE hate by 200, rather than decrease? After all that does seem to fit more with a stun proc.
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