There is no doubt in my mind that all of you *log dogs* and *parse people* have done a ton of research on this subject so I rekon that by this evening there could easily be around a MB of data hanging from this thread!!!
I'm trying to find out where the balance point / sweet spot is for 1HS & 1HB & 1HP weapons regarding dmg vs. delay? I am attempting to apply this in terms of dual wield on my ranger, (who with any luck will ding 17 this weekend and will therefore NEED the information!).
It would seem logical (to me) that more damage is better and faster is better but I'm not seeing any weapons that are BIG and FAST... at least none that I think I will ever be able to afford...
So here's the meat and potatoes... Staying within the *real world*, (well, OK the virtual real world then), and assuming an available and affordable selection of weapons, excluding procs, is a fast 5 better than a quick 6... is that quick 6 better than a slow 7? Or an even slower 8? Or is it the the other way around? Is bigger damage at a slower rate the way to go?
I guess my question really boils down to; How do the dmg / delay stats relate to the DPS figure? And which of the two is the dominant stat?
If you can't have it both ways, than it's all about tradeoffs, so given your druthers, which would you rather have? A faster swing or bigger bite?
Let the number crunching begin!!!
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From how I have seen it explained, to train up DW you're going to want to find the lowest delay weapon possible to maximize your swings. Once its maxed up, throw in the highest possible damage weapon because you dont get damage bonus in offhand.
Edited, Fri May 14 12:02:39 2004 by Vlaid
Edited, Fri May 14 12:02:39 2004 by Vlaid
There are several answers to this. The ones that are no doubt going to get quoted have several points which are not relevant to your situation.
In general a ranger would want the best ratio weapon rather than the fastest. So a Wurmslayer 25/40 is better than a Centi Shortsword 12/25. This holds for many levels but not at the lowest and highest.
However:
At level 17 you get dual wield. Like any other skill it needs training. Each time the weapon in your off-hand is due to strike it must pass a "dual-wield test". Initially it will not succeed very often. The lower the delay you can put in your offhand the more often you get the chance to strike and the more often you get the chance to skill up. Hence having a really nice ratio but slow weapon in offhand is the right thing when you have high dual wield skill but not when you are training it.
Also at 17 your general 1HS etc skills are limited and you will miss a lot. Again a good ratio but slow weapon may mean less damage. You notice this most on 2HS where something like an Argent Protector with it's 49 delay will be an age between hits (very nice hits when they land mind you
)
After 28 the benefits of damage bonus start to come into play. many of the weapon pics you see here on Alla show "damage bonus 3" or the like. This is not inherent to the weapon but is a bonus based on the level of the wielder. The damage bonus is added after all other calculations but it does have the effect of raising the average level of damage. When this starts to factor in then fast weapons become very much more attractive.
Against this is the question of your role. If you are not tanking then you do not want aggro. Eventually rangers get some good spells for losing aggro but up to your late 40's you will have to rely on other skills to avoid it. Fast weapons create more aggro. If you are soloing or tanking this is great, if you are there for dps then it can get kind of annoying. While switching to 2HS can solve this it is rather annoying to do this if you just spent a few kpp on nice 1HS weapons.
Rangers tend to have a fascination for suicidally fast weapons, I know, I rez them.
In general a ranger would want the best ratio weapon rather than the fastest. So a Wurmslayer 25/40 is better than a Centi Shortsword 12/25. This holds for many levels but not at the lowest and highest.
However:
At level 17 you get dual wield. Like any other skill it needs training. Each time the weapon in your off-hand is due to strike it must pass a "dual-wield test". Initially it will not succeed very often. The lower the delay you can put in your offhand the more often you get the chance to strike and the more often you get the chance to skill up. Hence having a really nice ratio but slow weapon in offhand is the right thing when you have high dual wield skill but not when you are training it.
Also at 17 your general 1HS etc skills are limited and you will miss a lot. Again a good ratio but slow weapon may mean less damage. You notice this most on 2HS where something like an Argent Protector with it's 49 delay will be an age between hits (very nice hits when they land mind you
) After 28 the benefits of damage bonus start to come into play. many of the weapon pics you see here on Alla show "damage bonus 3" or the like. This is not inherent to the weapon but is a bonus based on the level of the wielder. The damage bonus is added after all other calculations but it does have the effect of raising the average level of damage. When this starts to factor in then fast weapons become very much more attractive.
Against this is the question of your role. If you are not tanking then you do not want aggro. Eventually rangers get some good spells for losing aggro but up to your late 40's you will have to rely on other skills to avoid it. Fast weapons create more aggro. If you are soloing or tanking this is great, if you are there for dps then it can get kind of annoying. While switching to 2HS can solve this it is rather annoying to do this if you just spent a few kpp on nice 1HS weapons.
Rangers tend to have a fascination for suicidally fast weapons, I know, I rez them.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Quote:
Rangers tend to have a fascination for suicidally fast weapons, I know, I rez them.
Cobra, you crack me up!
Quote:
Rangers tend to have a fascination for suicidally fast weapons, I know, I rez them.
OOOk...I thought I would pick a melee so I was not burden with all the prep work for spells. After reading this thread even melee seems complicated if I have to figure out my dmg/del stuff. LOL
Sheesh, why over-analyze? Just get two decent weapons and swing away. Whether one combo gives .5dps more than another probably wont matter.
I will mention here my goal was and is to raise all weapon skills available. Both my monk and bard are max or near max DW for level and the only strategy was to switch in the weapon with the worst skill (h2h, 1hb for monk; 1hs,1hb,pierce for bard) into primary. If one of the 1h skills was lagging too far behind, or the others were max for level, use two of this type. If I ever got into trouble I would switch in the best damage weapon to primary if possible. (Tough to carry all those weapons for an AC weight-penalized monk, so he made frequent bank visits.)
And you will max DW regardless of what you use unless its a 2-hander or a shield.
I will mention here my goal was and is to raise all weapon skills available. Both my monk and bard are max or near max DW for level and the only strategy was to switch in the weapon with the worst skill (h2h, 1hb for monk; 1hs,1hb,pierce for bard) into primary. If one of the 1h skills was lagging too far behind, or the others were max for level, use two of this type. If I ever got into trouble I would switch in the best damage weapon to primary if possible. (Tough to carry all those weapons for an AC weight-penalized monk, so he made frequent bank visits.)
And you will max DW regardless of what you use unless its a 2-hander or a shield.
You don't need to know anything except how to do math to arrive at a solid conclusion on what weapon is better that another.
(damage *2)+1 /(delay/10) = relative damage per second (primary hand)
Wurmslayer 25dmg/40dly => 51/4 = 12.75 dps
Centi SS 12dmg/25dly => 25/2.5 = 10 dps
If you ignore your spikes and troughs while you are fighting, and try to ignore your 'gut' feelings about how fast combat damage spam scrolls your screen, you will always find that over time, you WILL do MORE damage with a wurmslayer than a centi short sword.
Yes, primary hand gets a damage bonus, but for the sake of making a simple comparison, a simple dps calculation tells you which weapon is better. Primary hand damage bonuses get larger as you increase in level and as weapon delay increases for 2 handers (see damage bonus if you are interested.
If you want to get more complicated, factor in 2 procs per minute and recalculate overall dps for things like fleshgrinders.
Your off hand doesn't get a damage bonus per swing. You get a swing check every (secondary weapon delay/10) seconds in your off hand. If you make a dual wield skill 'save' you swing. All you care about in your offhand is the best DPS and not the fastest delay or the highest damage.
If you remember nothing else, remember this:
(damage *2)+1 /(delay/10) = dps
(damage *2)+1 /(delay/10) = relative damage per second (primary hand)
Wurmslayer 25dmg/40dly => 51/4 = 12.75 dps
Centi SS 12dmg/25dly => 25/2.5 = 10 dps
If you ignore your spikes and troughs while you are fighting, and try to ignore your 'gut' feelings about how fast combat damage spam scrolls your screen, you will always find that over time, you WILL do MORE damage with a wurmslayer than a centi short sword.
Yes, primary hand gets a damage bonus, but for the sake of making a simple comparison, a simple dps calculation tells you which weapon is better. Primary hand damage bonuses get larger as you increase in level and as weapon delay increases for 2 handers (see damage bonus if you are interested.
If you want to get more complicated, factor in 2 procs per minute and recalculate overall dps for things like fleshgrinders.
Your off hand doesn't get a damage bonus per swing. You get a swing check every (secondary weapon delay/10) seconds in your off hand. If you make a dual wield skill 'save' you swing. All you care about in your offhand is the best DPS and not the fastest delay or the highest damage.
If you remember nothing else, remember this:
(damage *2)+1 /(delay/10) = dps
Sataman, you have given a good precis of the best way to compare weapon damage, but please don't use the dps term in describing the result. It is just way too misleading.
Perhaps potential dps might be OK, but even then it is not truely representative.
Actual DPS is derived from (yes) weapon damage and delay and, character weapon skill, character offensive skill, character attack, character level versus mob level, mob defensive skill, mob AC, mob parry, riposte, block, dodge and something else we don't know about.
Your formular is a good ready reckoner to make a start in comparing weapons and as it suggests most of the time a Ranger should just get the two best ratio weapons he/she can.
And pick up a couple of "training" weapons that are used to max out skills each time you hit a new level. For dual wielding characters it is quite easy to max your skills early in each level, just put each fast "training" weapon in your offhand in succession until you cap it.
Perhaps potential dps might be OK, but even then it is not truely representative.
Actual DPS is derived from (yes) weapon damage and delay and, character weapon skill, character offensive skill, character attack, character level versus mob level, mob defensive skill, mob AC, mob parry, riposte, block, dodge and something else we don't know about.
Your formular is a good ready reckoner to make a start in comparing weapons and as it suggests most of the time a Ranger should just get the two best ratio weapons he/she can.
And pick up a couple of "training" weapons that are used to max out skills each time you hit a new level. For dual wielding characters it is quite easy to max your skills early in each level, just put each fast "training" weapon in your offhand in succession until you cap it.
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