I'm fairly new to EQ, my main is lvl39 necro, more and more often I'm getting guild invites, and raiding always comes somewhere in the offer...
Could someone sum up what a raid consists of for me? Some questions you might adress...
Do they take place in instanced zones like LDoN?
What lvl does one need to be to go on a raid?
Can you choose raids of different lvls (similar to LDoNs)?
I understand that they consist of large numbers of people, but how does it differ from an LDoN?
Are the mobs just that much harder? Do multiple mobs come from multiple directions? If there are multiple groups, how is there coordination between the groups?
...and anything else you can think of pros or cons about the whole experience...
I've heard a number of negative things about raiding in general, most commonly that only a certain number of individuals will benefit from the raid, i.e. the guild leaders...Is there good experience to be gained from raids or are they primarily for the loot?
Thanks in advance
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Well. The simple answer is that a raid is anytime more then one group forms up in order to defeat an opponent in the game. This is usually accomplished via the raid window in which case one group leader uses /raidinvite on another, thus forming the raid. From there, additional group can be added. Everyone in the raid can be viewed in the raid window (alt-r). Also, looters can be designated by the raidleader as desired (although that system is pretty poor IMO, there should be a way for the raid leader to target a mob and then select one or more members of the raid who are allowed to loot it *after* the mob is dead...).
Raids are generally formed to go after content that a single group cannot accomplish. They can be anything. Maybe you want to take out all of LGuk? Maybe you want to take out a dungeon mob with a much lower level group of people (like FoS used to do against the spider chick in CC IIRC). More often, raids are going to be a bit higher level then you are currently. Typically, the earliest you really start doing raids is somewhere around level 50 (ok. 46 plus just to get to the planes anyway). Most planes have boss mobs and "mini-bosses" that are significantly harder to kill then the normal level mobs in the area. You would want to form a raid to take them out.
LDoN is a bad example for raiding really. They normal dungeons are instanced, so not only can you not take more then one group into them, nothing in those zones requires more then one group anyway. There are raids for LDoN, but they're scaled specifically at a much higher level then you are (don't even think about it at this point!).
I would not avoid guilding just to avoid raids. Yes. There are abuses when it comes to raiding. After all, often the reason you want to hit that boss mob in a zone is because it drops really nice loot. While the general rule in EQ, is that you can't get loot drops with a single group that will be worth wearin, that is not true for raiding (since it's not a single group effort). The "best stuff" in the game can only be obtained by raiding. It's well worth it, and the earlier you start learning how to raid, the better. Sure, there are some guilds where the leadership assembles members to raid just so they can get good stuff for themselves. But you should be able to figure that out pretty quickly. Most guilds wont be like that. Find people you like to play with, and don't worry about the raids. They'll come up all by themselves, and you'll have a much better EQ experience growing into raiding rather then doing it because you think it's something you should be doing.
Raids are generally formed to go after content that a single group cannot accomplish. They can be anything. Maybe you want to take out all of LGuk? Maybe you want to take out a dungeon mob with a much lower level group of people (like FoS used to do against the spider chick in CC IIRC). More often, raids are going to be a bit higher level then you are currently. Typically, the earliest you really start doing raids is somewhere around level 50 (ok. 46 plus just to get to the planes anyway). Most planes have boss mobs and "mini-bosses" that are significantly harder to kill then the normal level mobs in the area. You would want to form a raid to take them out.
LDoN is a bad example for raiding really. They normal dungeons are instanced, so not only can you not take more then one group into them, nothing in those zones requires more then one group anyway. There are raids for LDoN, but they're scaled specifically at a much higher level then you are (don't even think about it at this point!).
I would not avoid guilding just to avoid raids. Yes. There are abuses when it comes to raiding. After all, often the reason you want to hit that boss mob in a zone is because it drops really nice loot. While the general rule in EQ, is that you can't get loot drops with a single group that will be worth wearin, that is not true for raiding (since it's not a single group effort). The "best stuff" in the game can only be obtained by raiding. It's well worth it, and the earlier you start learning how to raid, the better. Sure, there are some guilds where the leadership assembles members to raid just so they can get good stuff for themselves. But you should be able to figure that out pretty quickly. Most guilds wont be like that. Find people you like to play with, and don't worry about the raids. They'll come up all by themselves, and you'll have a much better EQ experience growing into raiding rather then doing it because you think it's something you should be doing.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Missed a couple bits.
Coordination between groups is handled by using channels. When you all join a raid (using the raid window and commands), then the /rs (raidsay) channel will automatically work for everyone in that raid. You can also create and join any channels you want as well. Often, just having the raid channel is fine. Sometimes, you'll create a second main channel for the raid when you're forming up (folks join that channel first, then raid is formed, and you can check the numbers in each to verify that everyone is grouped). My guild also uses a "raidleader" channel, which everyone sets to a different color (like gold) so that the raidleader(s) can get important information out there withou it getting lost in the spam. Other channels often include ones for healing, and sometimes a pull team channel (or CC team) as well.
Again. There are LDoN instanced raids, but those are not level selectable. They are all high level, and you wont be anywhere near able to handle those for a long time. Raids will generally just be to get to and kill a specific target. Some raids are "events" (like some of the scripted PoP encounters), in which there is an NPC doing certain actions and the raid must follow along and do certain things at the right times (hedge events in PoN, and Xanamech in PoI are great examples of this type of raid). Most will just be a target raid. Whether there are lots of mobs coming from many directions or not is entirely dependant on the raid. Your raid leaders should research what they are doing, and know the particulars. All you need to do is follow directions.
Raiding is a lot of fun really, and is probably the "goal" of EQ. If you ever find yourself asking: "Why am I spending hour after hour killing mobs to gain exp and loot just so I can gain levels and spend more time killing higher level mobs so I can gain more exp and loot so I can kill even higher level mobs...", raiding may be an answer. It's so you can get high enough to do something "different". Something in which you get to accomplish something more then just killing the 600th orc. That's not to say you can't get bored of raiding, but most players don't. There's always a higher level/nastier mob that you haven't killed yet just waiting for you...
Coordination between groups is handled by using channels. When you all join a raid (using the raid window and commands), then the /rs (raidsay) channel will automatically work for everyone in that raid. You can also create and join any channels you want as well. Often, just having the raid channel is fine. Sometimes, you'll create a second main channel for the raid when you're forming up (folks join that channel first, then raid is formed, and you can check the numbers in each to verify that everyone is grouped). My guild also uses a "raidleader" channel, which everyone sets to a different color (like gold) so that the raidleader(s) can get important information out there withou it getting lost in the spam. Other channels often include ones for healing, and sometimes a pull team channel (or CC team) as well.
Again. There are LDoN instanced raids, but those are not level selectable. They are all high level, and you wont be anywhere near able to handle those for a long time. Raids will generally just be to get to and kill a specific target. Some raids are "events" (like some of the scripted PoP encounters), in which there is an NPC doing certain actions and the raid must follow along and do certain things at the right times (hedge events in PoN, and Xanamech in PoI are great examples of this type of raid). Most will just be a target raid. Whether there are lots of mobs coming from many directions or not is entirely dependant on the raid. Your raid leaders should research what they are doing, and know the particulars. All you need to do is follow directions.
Raiding is a lot of fun really, and is probably the "goal" of EQ. If you ever find yourself asking: "Why am I spending hour after hour killing mobs to gain exp and loot just so I can gain levels and spend more time killing higher level mobs so I can gain more exp and loot so I can kill even higher level mobs...", raiding may be an answer. It's so you can get high enough to do something "different". Something in which you get to accomplish something more then just killing the 600th orc. That's not to say you can't get bored of raiding, but most players don't. There's always a higher level/nastier mob that you haven't killed yet just waiting for you...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Raiding is a large part of EQ, more especially as you enter the high level game.
At the very basics, a raid consists of more than 1 group of players going after the same goal. This can happen in many places, a few instanced zones (mainly at the very high level), most not.
As far as level required, this will be all up to the raid leader, and will depend on where the raid is going. At level 39, you will most likely be raiding places like The Tower of Frozen Shadow (ToFS), Kaesora, and other simliar level zones. (Can probably squeeze yourself into a Kael raid too, if there are enough higher levels around). As you (and your guild) grows, you will start going to higher level places. Once you hit 46 (plus some extra exp) you can enter the planes for raids (old ones...hate, fear, sky, growth). Overall however, with the exception of the hard-coded minimum level to get in zone zones, it will be fully up to the raid leader as far as levels. (Keys may play a part in some raids too...Seb and Charasis are the most common ones that come to mind).
The raid is not given out by an npc at all, so there is no "choosing the difficulty" that you see in LDoN adventures (of course, this is with the exception of the high end LDoN and GoD raids). The difficulty is set by the strength of your force, the place you go, and the goal of the raid.
The number of people will vary, personally I've done everything from 7 person raids (raid as use used the PoP raid tool) up to 72 people. Most commonly my guild will field 15-20 people. It differs from LDoN as described above. These are not given by NPCs, nor are they instanced. Furthermore, you will have to take respawns into account as you progress forward. (Something that doesn't happen at all in LDoNs).
The mobs will depend on your goal. If you are just "raiding a zone", then you'll be fighting normal level mobs, with the occasional possible named (if applicable). If you are going after a particular mob, then yes, they can be very difficult and require the full team effort.
Coordination of groups is done through the PoP raiding tool. This acts as a communications and organization tool for the raid leader. Commonly the RL (raid leader) will also have a few people that help him direct the raid. A good raid leader will always communicate with the team in one form or another.
Honestly, I love raiding with my team. We're not uber or anything, but we have a blast getting stuff done together. That (as it should be) is the main goal of raiding. Getting a group of friends together to have fun and accomplish something. Other pros include: access to loot that you will not get any other way, the making of friends from a large group of people, and (most importantly) the experience of accomplishing a task where several groups of people have to work together.
The negatives (at least in my perspective) are few. They can sometimes get a bit boring, especially from an enchanter's point of view (we tend to have 2 or 3 tanks...so there's few adds to mez, and if there's nothing to charm around I just play buffbot and wizzy). They can also get frustrating, mainly when people aren't paying attention and causing trouble. If you have a good RL/GL then the raid/guild leader getting all the loot won't be an issue.
Primarly, raids are for loot and fun. With the PoP raid tool you do get experience...but it's minimal (think of killing a mob around your level, and splitting the experience 20 ways :))
I'm sure you'll get other views from other knowledgeable people around here as well. Best advice is, go one a couple, try them out. If you don't like to raid, then you don't have to :), if you like it, there's one more thing you can do.
Good luck whichever way you go!
(edited to say...
I really started typing this before anyone responded :( I just type too slow..and it's not the easiest thing in the world to explain ;))
Edited, Tue May 4 20:21:19 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
At the very basics, a raid consists of more than 1 group of players going after the same goal. This can happen in many places, a few instanced zones (mainly at the very high level), most not.
As far as level required, this will be all up to the raid leader, and will depend on where the raid is going. At level 39, you will most likely be raiding places like The Tower of Frozen Shadow (ToFS), Kaesora, and other simliar level zones. (Can probably squeeze yourself into a Kael raid too, if there are enough higher levels around). As you (and your guild) grows, you will start going to higher level places. Once you hit 46 (plus some extra exp) you can enter the planes for raids (old ones...hate, fear, sky, growth). Overall however, with the exception of the hard-coded minimum level to get in zone zones, it will be fully up to the raid leader as far as levels. (Keys may play a part in some raids too...Seb and Charasis are the most common ones that come to mind).
The raid is not given out by an npc at all, so there is no "choosing the difficulty" that you see in LDoN adventures (of course, this is with the exception of the high end LDoN and GoD raids). The difficulty is set by the strength of your force, the place you go, and the goal of the raid.
The number of people will vary, personally I've done everything from 7 person raids (raid as use used the PoP raid tool) up to 72 people. Most commonly my guild will field 15-20 people. It differs from LDoN as described above. These are not given by NPCs, nor are they instanced. Furthermore, you will have to take respawns into account as you progress forward. (Something that doesn't happen at all in LDoNs).
The mobs will depend on your goal. If you are just "raiding a zone", then you'll be fighting normal level mobs, with the occasional possible named (if applicable). If you are going after a particular mob, then yes, they can be very difficult and require the full team effort.
Coordination of groups is done through the PoP raiding tool. This acts as a communications and organization tool for the raid leader. Commonly the RL (raid leader) will also have a few people that help him direct the raid. A good raid leader will always communicate with the team in one form or another.
Honestly, I love raiding with my team. We're not uber or anything, but we have a blast getting stuff done together. That (as it should be) is the main goal of raiding. Getting a group of friends together to have fun and accomplish something. Other pros include: access to loot that you will not get any other way, the making of friends from a large group of people, and (most importantly) the experience of accomplishing a task where several groups of people have to work together.
The negatives (at least in my perspective) are few. They can sometimes get a bit boring, especially from an enchanter's point of view (we tend to have 2 or 3 tanks...so there's few adds to mez, and if there's nothing to charm around I just play buffbot and wizzy). They can also get frustrating, mainly when people aren't paying attention and causing trouble. If you have a good RL/GL then the raid/guild leader getting all the loot won't be an issue.
Primarly, raids are for loot and fun. With the PoP raid tool you do get experience...but it's minimal (think of killing a mob around your level, and splitting the experience 20 ways :))
I'm sure you'll get other views from other knowledgeable people around here as well. Best advice is, go one a couple, try them out. If you don't like to raid, then you don't have to :), if you like it, there's one more thing you can do.
Good luck whichever way you go!
(edited to say...
I really started typing this before anyone responded :( I just type too slow..and it's not the easiest thing in the world to explain ;))
Edited, Tue May 4 20:21:19 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
Thanks alot for the very informative replys fellas...
I really like the idea of a small group of us working together similar to what you explained, cafeen, as most enjoyable for yourself...That's what I'm lookin for , I've just got this image though of these huge guilds, with hundreds of members, pre-set macros to shoot at potential members, you're encouraged to recruit new members, etc. etc...I suppose I'll eventually come accross a small guild like this, but it seems most of the members that I've grouped with are in these huge guilds, they have no clue who the top members are, don't even know but a fraction of the members, and their only purpose is basically to have the guild tag and to tag along to guild events and maybe have a higher level guy feed them some uber, but ultimately useless gear...
I probably have a negative view on guilds because I've ran into a couple people that I'm sure were sending me pre-made macro tells to persuade me to join their guild, that's just annoying, and I've ran into enough people with guild tags who were horrible group members, plus I had bad experiences with guilds when I played the PS2 version...
I really like the idea of a small group of us working together similar to what you explained, cafeen, as most enjoyable for yourself...That's what I'm lookin for , I've just got this image though of these huge guilds, with hundreds of members, pre-set macros to shoot at potential members, you're encouraged to recruit new members, etc. etc...I suppose I'll eventually come accross a small guild like this, but it seems most of the members that I've grouped with are in these huge guilds, they have no clue who the top members are, don't even know but a fraction of the members, and their only purpose is basically to have the guild tag and to tag along to guild events and maybe have a higher level guy feed them some uber, but ultimately useless gear...
I probably have a negative view on guilds because I've ran into a couple people that I'm sure were sending me pre-made macro tells to persuade me to join their guild, that's just annoying, and I've ran into enough people with guild tags who were horrible group members, plus I had bad experiences with guilds when I played the PS2 version...
You'll find one that fits you Blackthane :) keep up the hope.
I got lucky with mine, as it was a core of RL friends of mine who played. Been in this guild since level 8 (65 +60AA now...roughly 2 1/2 years).
Best thing is...if you find some group members who are fun to play with, and are guilded, ask them about their guild. Visit their website or MB if they have one. See what they think of the guild, and how often the guild does stuff together. I am a big fan of guilds for the reasons I explained above. Even without raiding they are a large asset (if you get a good one).
The big hundred people raids aren't very common. Generally open dragon raids (naggy and vox) or open/backflagging PoP raids really have turnouts that large.
Just keep in mind, most good guilds do not mass invite or advertise. (Most mind you, some do when their numbers are hurting). Find a good group of people you like being around, and you'll never want to be without them :)
One last thing. There are mainly 2 types of guild in EQ. Raiding and Family. A Raiding guild is one that is around for one reason...to kill stuff. They are generally a bit rough around the edges and expect a high level of attendence and skill on raids. They also tend to be mainly high level guilds (55+ is the lowest on Luclin, most are 60+ or 65 only). Family guilds are pretty much the ones I described, as my own guild is a "Family guild that raids". Generally they are more laid back and around to have fun. Some may have level requirements (46+ for Azure Storm), but many do not. Their goals are commonly working together to do stuff, having fun as a group, and just helping each other out.
Well, I'm feeling rather verbose tonight :( sorry for lengthy replies. To recap the main point, if you find good group members that are tagged, talk to them about their guild and look them up :). (You could very well be talking to an officer or the leader as well, I've talked to a few in my time while playing tagged alts.) That is probably the best way to find a good guild that will fit your playing style. Good luck with it :)
I got lucky with mine, as it was a core of RL friends of mine who played. Been in this guild since level 8 (65 +60AA now...roughly 2 1/2 years).
Best thing is...if you find some group members who are fun to play with, and are guilded, ask them about their guild. Visit their website or MB if they have one. See what they think of the guild, and how often the guild does stuff together. I am a big fan of guilds for the reasons I explained above. Even without raiding they are a large asset (if you get a good one).
The big hundred people raids aren't very common. Generally open dragon raids (naggy and vox) or open/backflagging PoP raids really have turnouts that large.
Just keep in mind, most good guilds do not mass invite or advertise. (Most mind you, some do when their numbers are hurting). Find a good group of people you like being around, and you'll never want to be without them :)
One last thing. There are mainly 2 types of guild in EQ. Raiding and Family. A Raiding guild is one that is around for one reason...to kill stuff. They are generally a bit rough around the edges and expect a high level of attendence and skill on raids. They also tend to be mainly high level guilds (55+ is the lowest on Luclin, most are 60+ or 65 only). Family guilds are pretty much the ones I described, as my own guild is a "Family guild that raids". Generally they are more laid back and around to have fun. Some may have level requirements (46+ for Azure Storm), but many do not. Their goals are commonly working together to do stuff, having fun as a group, and just helping each other out.
Well, I'm feeling rather verbose tonight :( sorry for lengthy replies. To recap the main point, if you find good group members that are tagged, talk to them about their guild and look them up :). (You could very well be talking to an officer or the leader as well, I've talked to a few in my time while playing tagged alts.) That is probably the best way to find a good guild that will fit your playing style. Good luck with it :)
Blacktharne wrote:
I've just got this image though of these huge guilds, with hundreds of members, pre-set macros to shoot at potential members, you're encouraged to recruit new members, etc. etc...I suppose I'll eventually come accross a small guild like this, but it seems most of the members that I've grouped with are in these huge guilds, they have no clue who the top members are, don't even know but a fraction of the members, and their only purpose is basically to have the guild tag and to tag along to guild events and maybe have a higher level guy feed them some uber, but ultimately useless gear...
Feen and Gbaji have covered it pretty well, but it is interesting to see things from a newer players perspective. (Sorry to use that term, I'm begining to really dislike this new/old player thing.)
As Gbaji suggested, guilds exist basically becuase the game is designed around the concept that anything worthwhile needs to be achieved by a group, which has translated more or less to mean that the bigger the reward you are chasing the bigger the group of people you need to get it.
In in the early days of the game many people banded together and formed guilds or joined guilds primarily in order to complete their epics.
Even now, as was mentioned in a recent post about weapons, once you get to the stage of wanting/needing a sub 1.4 ratio sword, you will have to be able to take down "raid target" mobs, because these mobs are rarely conveniently sitting alone out in the middle of a nice clear zone, you need to capability of conducting what amounts to a major battle, dealing with multiple defenders and even waves of defenders.
To succeed with these types of battle takes a high degree of coordination of your forces and skilled "battle field commanders".
Blacktharne is quite right in his observation that there will be plenty of people around who are members of guilds capable of the sort of encounters I mentioned and who are literaly on the fringes, and may well have turned up and participated in this sort of raid, but never been anywhere the "real action", and probably would not know who the various group leaders were or what they were doing. This is the unfortunate aspect of the "FoH" syndrome.
But this is not what a really good raiding guild is about. There are others who post on this board who know much more about it than me, but the essence of a good guild and especially a good raiding guild is its leadership. And the same qualities that are needed in real life leadership are those needed in game.
Sadly, this is a skill set that is in rather short supply.
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