The recent thread on charecter death got me to thinking. My main is a 53 Cleric and all my deaths in the last 5 or so levels have been caused by adds. I'm not one to sit around waiting for the "perfect" group, so I tend to go with what's available. In these situations there is not a C C type class (chanter or bard) with us.
Normally what happens is the puller will get two or will pick up an add on the way back. So he gets and everyone assists. Now 5 charecters are focused on the one toon and both mobs are beating on the tank. He is dropping fast so I need to heal him. And then I get aggro from the 2nd mob. Normally, if no one tries to get it off me, I'll try and root and back up. But that doesn't always work anymore. Some of these mobs are hitting pretty hard and after I get stunned, interrupted and all, sometimes I'm down around 20-25%. Then if I get DA off, the mob leaves me alone for 18 secs, then comes back and turns me into a spot. All the while the other 5 members of my party are obliviously beating on mob 1.
Anyway, do you guys have any other suggestions or tactics that I can use to help survive these situations? The only thing I haven't tried yet, is channeling through a gate. I don't wan't to do that, cause normally I'm bound in PoK, and it's not always a quick trip back. I'ld really like things that I can do myself, because I'm running into more people now that are just a bit unreliable.
Thanks
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How do you handle adds?Follow
If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Then find someone that life has given vodka and have party.
This establishment does not serve women. You must bring your own.
This establishment does not serve women. You must bring your own.
Well, first, don't gate unless everyone is dead. You don't want to get that reputation.
Second, take control of the adds BEFORE you have to heal. Root the add, preferably off from the group, then heal. If the add isn't rootable, well, at least you have that information before you get crazy heal aggro.
Stun is your friend. Have a stun loaded pretty much all the time (after buffs are done).
Talk to your group. Tell the tank you're under attack, ask him to come taunt it off you. If you have to kite a mob, let the group know that you're not pointlessly running around but kiting until they're ready. Since this kind of communication doesn't lend itself to battle conditions, talk it up ahead of time and see how they want to handle adds.
EQ is not a hard game. A lot of times people have no idea what to do without being told; once they're told, though, most people can perform adequately.
Second, take control of the adds BEFORE you have to heal. Root the add, preferably off from the group, then heal. If the add isn't rootable, well, at least you have that information before you get crazy heal aggro.
Stun is your friend. Have a stun loaded pretty much all the time (after buffs are done).
Talk to your group. Tell the tank you're under attack, ask him to come taunt it off you. If you have to kite a mob, let the group know that you're not pointlessly running around but kiting until they're ready. Since this kind of communication doesn't lend itself to battle conditions, talk it up ahead of time and see how they want to handle adds.
EQ is not a hard game. A lot of times people have no idea what to do without being told; once they're told, though, most people can perform adequately.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
35 posts
With 2 or 3 adds if you don't have a chanter someone should root them and keep them there possibly. One way to not get aggro straight away is to use immediately on inc an over time heal on MT. They have much lower aggro and give everyone time to deal with adds. In case you need to use a big heal that will cause you aggro, heal MT quickly then DA and give them time to root, then click DA off et voila'! If they don't help with adds and try and peel u...don't group with them again....
Usually what I do if there is another tank in the group is I'll just turn around , taunt the mob and then smack it. Depending on the situation I'll get a stun off which usually gets me enough aggro that it will leave the cleric alone. I'll go back and step in on mob 1 again and let mob 2 whack away at me until mob 1 goes down, then I chain stun mob 2 while we finish it off. It's not exactly mana efficient, but everyone is still alive afterwards.
Edit- I read the original message again to realize I missed some key words such as what do *I* do and the like. Therefore this post of mine doesn't fit here at all! Here's to me not posting in the mornings anymore until I'm fully awake.
Edited, Mon May 3 12:08:29 2004 by Mulamen
Edit- I read the original message again to realize I missed some key words such as what do *I* do and the like. Therefore this post of mine doesn't fit here at all! Here's to me not posting in the mornings anymore until I'm fully awake.
Edited, Mon May 3 12:08:29 2004 by Mulamen
Samira has spoken, and said exactly what I would say. I am going to repeat some of it so it sinks in. It is important to have root/instill and a stun or two up at all times. It is important to have a hotkey that states you are under attack and need help. As a cleric I dont normally heal a person in a fight untill they get below 60 percent, and now that I have Ch its even lower.
If you are the only one in the group with root then indeed use the heal over time spells. They use more manna to cast but its a trade off for not using manna to root and heal yourself.
Other than that when we get adds we die. If I call Oom and zone you need to know that im getting out so I can rezz my fallen comrades.
If you are the only one in the group with root then indeed use the heal over time spells. They use more manna to cast but its a trade off for not using manna to root and heal yourself.
Other than that when we get adds we die. If I call Oom and zone you need to know that im getting out so I can rezz my fallen comrades.
There are many classes capable of crowd control.
Mez classes: Enchanter, Bard, Necro(vs undead)
Root classes: Pally, Druid, Wizzie, Cleric, Shaman, Ranger
Pet Classes: Beastlord, Mage
Mez is the most common CC technique, but as you point out, you often will not have a mez class. Root involves someone rooting mobs out of melee range of the main force. Pet CC involves sticking a pet on an add.
All of these techniques work, you just need to talk about how you are going to CC beforehand. It would be a very strange group indeed where you had none of the above classes.
As a cleric, you are the least ideal class to be in charge of CC, so always try and assign that job to someone else. You can do it in a pinch though with root.
Rangers are a good choice, might as well make them useful somehow .
Mez classes: Enchanter, Bard, Necro(vs undead)
Root classes: Pally, Druid, Wizzie, Cleric, Shaman, Ranger
Pet Classes: Beastlord, Mage
Mez is the most common CC technique, but as you point out, you often will not have a mez class. Root involves someone rooting mobs out of melee range of the main force. Pet CC involves sticking a pet on an add.
All of these techniques work, you just need to talk about how you are going to CC beforehand. It would be a very strange group indeed where you had none of the above classes.
As a cleric, you are the least ideal class to be in charge of CC, so always try and assign that job to someone else. You can do it in a pinch though with root.
Rangers are a good choice, might as well make them useful somehow .
With regard to this problem when you have no Chanter or bard to mez; plan ahead! Since the group knows prior to getting the adventure that they are short in this department, you need to be talking about how to handle adds - i.e. off tank will switch, pet class will take, someone will root, etc, the critical thing is to have someone other than MT desiginated to handle this task.
Pickup groups always have a mix, but a little talkining in advance will improve chances for success. As previous posters have stated, if there are adds, then rooting them should occur prior to healing (especially when you have complete heal).
With regard to your being beaten on by adds while everyone else is still assisting on mobs, this shouldnt happen in a good group but most Clcs have a hotkey made up for this circumstances like "Help, get this mob off the cleric or there won't be anyone around to heal if I die".
Gating out is not an option IMHO, Clc needs to be hanging in there keeping the group alive and not bailing, you will build a good rep by hanging in there - had a recent fail in LDON where everyone died twice except for one DPS who actually ran off both times after chanter (myself) went down but clc and MT and rest were still up and fighting a close battle. All of us put him on our ignore list.
Finally, pulling is an art and a critical part of determining success (agree that most fails are a result of overpulls not being handled well or letting LDON mobs flee to get friends), your puller knew your were without CC, and you probably should have been pacifying unless the puller was a paly. Played a great LDON last night where the puller was a pally with 3,900 hp buffed and MT was War with over 5,000 but we went with the pally pulling due to pacify (did a great job with only a few adds in clearing the dugeon). If your group did not have CC or a puller able to pacify, you really need to take a little more time in putting group together - don't be impaient to fill the last spot if you are missing a key class.
Pickup groups always have a mix, but a little talkining in advance will improve chances for success. As previous posters have stated, if there are adds, then rooting them should occur prior to healing (especially when you have complete heal).
With regard to your being beaten on by adds while everyone else is still assisting on mobs, this shouldnt happen in a good group but most Clcs have a hotkey made up for this circumstances like "Help, get this mob off the cleric or there won't be anyone around to heal if I die".
Gating out is not an option IMHO, Clc needs to be hanging in there keeping the group alive and not bailing, you will build a good rep by hanging in there - had a recent fail in LDON where everyone died twice except for one DPS who actually ran off both times after chanter (myself) went down but clc and MT and rest were still up and fighting a close battle. All of us put him on our ignore list.
Finally, pulling is an art and a critical part of determining success (agree that most fails are a result of overpulls not being handled well or letting LDON mobs flee to get friends), your puller knew your were without CC, and you probably should have been pacifying unless the puller was a paly. Played a great LDON last night where the puller was a pally with 3,900 hp buffed and MT was War with over 5,000 but we went with the pally pulling due to pacify (did a great job with only a few adds in clearing the dugeon). If your group did not have CC or a puller able to pacify, you really need to take a little more time in putting group together - don't be impaient to fill the last spot if you are missing a key class.
35 posts
I have to be honest here, as a cleric I only ever had root up if I am the ONLY one capable to root (which is rare). I don't really have enough slots *hint sony* to spare. Usually CC gets sorted out before we start so everyone knows their job. Over time heals cause very little aggro and it has always worked for me. As far as stuns go uhm stuns=aggro and also I found I get resisted a lot especially in ldon. Always sort out your jobs before and generally it works out fine.
Usually:
1) HoT on tank
2) Root Add
3) CH tank
4) Atone Add
Usually works fine. May double cast Atone if it's a mob that could kill me fast, only costs 60 mana. If anyone in the group has a DS that can be cast on the MT, it helps a ton.
As to not gating out: Don't worry about it. If you get a bad rep from a group of players who can't be bothered to pay attention to whether the extra mob or two is beating on the only healer, would you really care? If it's a pickup group that can't seem to find their /assist macro with both hands and a map or can't seem to comprehend that breaking mez=bad, there is no way I'm taking a death for them.
1) HoT on tank
2) Root Add
3) CH tank
4) Atone Add
Usually works fine. May double cast Atone if it's a mob that could kill me fast, only costs 60 mana. If anyone in the group has a DS that can be cast on the MT, it helps a ton.
As to not gating out: Don't worry about it. If you get a bad rep from a group of players who can't be bothered to pay attention to whether the extra mob or two is beating on the only healer, would you really care? If it's a pickup group that can't seem to find their /assist macro with both hands and a map or can't seem to comprehend that breaking mez=bad, there is no way I'm taking a death for them.
I pull a lot in ldons. I like to do ldons without a bard or chanter, it is more fun and hectic 
If I pull a busy room, I will root pull. I will then tanglings weeds one add before the rest reach me. I run back to group. Tangling weeds mobs will be lagging behind any others. I root the nearest one. let other(s) come in. Once the tank has control of the one free to move mob I will re-root and snare the adds.
There is a rarely a problem with this and I do not take much damage as my actual contact with the mobs is not long
CC with snare and root can be done. But you have to do it before the mobs reach the group IMHO
If I pull a busy room, I will root pull. I will then tanglings weeds one add before the rest reach me. I run back to group. Tangling weeds mobs will be lagging behind any others. I root the nearest one. let other(s) come in. Once the tank has control of the one free to move mob I will re-root and snare the adds.
There is a rarely a problem with this and I do not take much damage as my actual contact with the mobs is not long
CC with snare and root can be done. But you have to do it before the mobs reach the group IMHO
37 posts
Ok, let me preface this by saying my main is a chanter, so this isnt a problem for me most of the time.
But by the same token, I understand adds and how best to deal with the a bit with other characters. My warrior, if he knows hes going to get an add, will peg the 'add' first with the provoke discipline, then switch to the real target and get agro on that, the ammount of agro provoke gives is huge for keeping the adds on the tank. Paladins and SKs have even better tools for keeping adds on them. If your main tank isnt maintaining agro on an add or even 2, thats a problem you should talk to them about.
To make this easier as my cleric, I love my HoT, it keeps me alive, it keeps the tank alive till he has more solid agro, its your friend use it, its often one of your more efficient spells too. Hot agro is way lower than normal heal agro. even at level 25, the difference of your heal over time versus your superior heal is about 50 points of healing, and a world of agro. By the time you are throwing Cheal around its even more noticeable.
Finally, if you are someplace where you deal with 2-3 adds every fight, you will need to tankmez them, either with another melee or a pet class. If you dont have a bard or a chanter, you probably have at least two such classes, tho beastlords are ideal for this, as they can keep the pets alive nicely while you deal with the main fight.
As an aside, a shaman is also a boon in these circumstances, not only for backup healing, but for slowing the one on you, giving you plenty of time to stun / root / survive till the first mob is done / whatever.
As far as root control works, it sucks unless its a druid. As my chanter knows, if it isnt mezzable, root is a poor crowd control option. Better than nothing, but not much. Druid roots are the only ones that hold up at all well.
-Moongleam
I play a cleric as well. I typically will root the add and have the group back away. If all goes well, they handle the first mob quickly enough.
If there is a pet class, they can have their pet tank the add as well. This can still cause agro, because you will still need to heal the MA and maybe the pet...depends. But, better the pet die than a group member.
I have a hotkey set up that says "HEALER UNDER ATTACK". Nothing more. Do not get too wordy "May Brell protect me! This beast is causing me much inconvenience Can someone please come and rescue me so that I may heal you" is not going to get you help. Hell, they may let you die just for doing that!
Also, do not overuse your under attack message. When I get attacked, I wait that split second to see if I am being helped. If I am I do not yell out. They know it and are doing something about it. I only use the key when they do not seem to know it is happening. I want it to get their attantion. If I shout it all of the time they may stop looking for it.
But, when all is said and done, adds are without question the number one cause of death in Norrath...well that and newbies jumping into the Hole. Sometimes there is no exact way to handle it. I think not panicing is the best advice of all. Keep calm and take care of business or go down trying. I find the idea of a cleric gating out and leaving his party members to die as wrong wrong wrong. Now, if everyone else is dead and there is nothing I can do for them, I will gate, but only if I am the last...which usually means those big mobs are gonna have something to say about my ability to cast a spell anyway!
If there is a pet class, they can have their pet tank the add as well. This can still cause agro, because you will still need to heal the MA and maybe the pet...depends. But, better the pet die than a group member.
I have a hotkey set up that says "HEALER UNDER ATTACK". Nothing more. Do not get too wordy "May Brell protect me! This beast is causing me much inconvenience Can someone please come and rescue me so that I may heal you" is not going to get you help. Hell, they may let you die just for doing that!
Also, do not overuse your under attack message. When I get attacked, I wait that split second to see if I am being helped. If I am I do not yell out. They know it and are doing something about it. I only use the key when they do not seem to know it is happening. I want it to get their attantion. If I shout it all of the time they may stop looking for it.
But, when all is said and done, adds are without question the number one cause of death in Norrath...well that and newbies jumping into the Hole. Sometimes there is no exact way to handle it. I think not panicing is the best advice of all. Keep calm and take care of business or go down trying. I find the idea of a cleric gating out and leaving his party members to die as wrong wrong wrong. Now, if everyone else is dead and there is nothing I can do for them, I will gate, but only if I am the last...which usually means those big mobs are gonna have something to say about my ability to cast a spell anyway!
Doing Ldons, If there are multiple mobs incomming, typically we will have an off-tank. Basically this could either be a pet or another plate class -minus cleric/bard. In the end this tends to work better then root, cuz you never know when root is going to break. If there are more then 2 then people tend to bring out the root spell to get the last add.
Basically with normal ldons, creatures do not last that long if you lose a tank to off-tanking and in the end may be just as mana effecient as any other cc.
With ldons the other concern is time, most groups that you do a ldon with should be able to handle 2 mobs without any problem. So if people insist on pacifying everything, you can really start running out of time quickly.
Basically with normal ldons, creatures do not last that long if you lose a tank to off-tanking and in the end may be just as mana effecient as any other cc.
With ldons the other concern is time, most groups that you do a ldon with should be able to handle 2 mobs without any problem. So if people insist on pacifying everything, you can really start running out of time quickly.
25 posts
Hm I'm a cleric too and we get pretty good cc spells. But you can really only efficently take care of one add at a time. What i do is stun a mob, wait for him to hobble over to me away from the group...and stun him again...then root em and its all good. Be careful not all mobs can be rooted, so remember the ones that can't because it'll just be more healing for you if you have to keep healing yourself.
I don't normally have these problms doing LDoNs. It seems when forming the group that these issues get sorted out before heading in. Lately, when I die, it's in a planes camp. Everything starts out good, but then someone has to go, someone comes in to replace them, that happens a couple of times, and pretty soon ..... Loading, Please Wait.
Now, it doesn't happen often, but when it does, that's why. I'll try the HoT, Root, CH, Atone suggestion next time. That should help some. I forgot about Atone. I've been using /y to yell for help. I figure the red yells for help message would get someones attention. But, I'll make a Hotkey, I suppose I should be less subtle.
Now, it doesn't happen often, but when it does, that's why. I'll try the HoT, Root, CH, Atone suggestion next time. That should help some. I forgot about Atone. I've been using /y to yell for help. I figure the red yells for help message would get someones attention. But, I'll make a Hotkey, I suppose I should be less subtle.
If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Then find someone that life has given vodka and have party.
This establishment does not serve women. You must bring your own.
This establishment does not serve women. You must bring your own.
Adds in Planes can be very hard to handle. Unlike LDoN where your whole back-trail is available for root-parking/kiting you may be pushed for space. Also the adds may not be yours but fallout from a train or failed kite.
I find Cleric root increasingly unreliable as a means of controlling mobs. And I never have enough slots to have Atone loaded when I'm fighting. I load it for travel occasionally but it gives very poor mileage. Sometimes you can hit a mob with it 4 times and it still aggroes.
The other problem with rooting for CC is getting the twits to move away from a rooted mob. If space doesn't permit kiting it off and rooting then you can guarantee that the MA will position where he isn't getting hit but I am a rogue sandwich.
I find Cleric root increasingly unreliable as a means of controlling mobs. And I never have enough slots to have Atone loaded when I'm fighting. I load it for travel occasionally but it gives very poor mileage. Sometimes you can hit a mob with it 4 times and it still aggroes.
The other problem with rooting for CC is getting the twits to move away from a rooted mob. If space doesn't permit kiting it off and rooting then you can guarantee that the MA will position where he isn't getting hit but I am a rogue sandwich.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Quote:
The other problem with rooting for CC is getting the twits to move away from a rooted mob. If space doesn't permit kiting it off and rooting then you can guarantee that the MA will position where he isn't getting hit but I am a rogue sandwich.
This just means people are sucking though. Communication = problem solved. I often use root CC quite successfully in the Planes - had a 4 pull in PoV the other day, no chanter, we survived quite comfortably. Pallies get a great root, reliable and very fast cast. I usually have all adds rooted by the time I am back at group if pulling.
Quote:
I load it for travel occasionally but it gives very poor mileage. Sometimes you can hit a mob with it 4 times and it still aggroes.
I'm going to assume I'm just not understanding what you mean, or that you mean something else by aggro. Atone wipes hate lists, it does not affect whether a mob attacks you if you are within its aggresive range. If you run by a mob that aggros you and you cast atone on it, if you are still within range nothing usefull is going to happen.
What you described is lull/soothe.
Edit to add: That said, it's success is no less than any other CC spell I've used. If I stopped memming mez or root or snare based on the amount of resists/immediate breaks, I'd have all 8 gems free.
Edited, Tue May 4 14:50:45 2004 by Toasticle
Edited, Tue May 4 14:53:37 2004 by Toasticle
Patrician wrote:
There are many classes capable of crowd control.
Mez classes: Enchanter, Bard, Necro(vs undead)
Mez classes: Enchanter, Bard, Necro(vs undead)
The necromancer mez, screaming terror, works on any mob Pat. It's their charm line that's undead only.
My main is a Chanter, but before I played a Chanter, I played a Ranger. As a Ranger, when their was no crowd control, generally we had 1 melee(usually me) who would cover the casters when an add went after one of them. It was usually my job to keep aggro off the casters. I still recommend this tactic when needed and even if you HAVE a control person. Usually it's the Enchanter's job to control the mobs, but sometimes the control person just can't stop a critter(due to being stunned or immunity to control spells) and someone HAS to take the aggro!
As a Ranger my best means of gaining aggro was chain casting snare, I could usually quickly remove 2 critters off a caster without too much problem and before their death happens. Other classes have their own tactics for gaining aggro, but that worked pretty well for me.
As a Ranger my best means of gaining aggro was chain casting snare, I could usually quickly remove 2 critters off a caster without too much problem and before their death happens. Other classes have their own tactics for gaining aggro, but that worked pretty well for me.
Apologies Dan, I stand corrected, you are right. I tend to talk in terms of mobs higher level than 55. I never really talk of Paladins pacify pulling for example.
HeresJohnny wrote:
I don't normally have these problms doing LDoNs. It seems when forming the group that these issues get sorted out before heading in. Lately, when I die, it's in a planes camp. Everything starts out good, but then someone has to go, someone comes in to replace them, that happens a couple of times, and pretty soon ..... Loading, Please Wait.
But, I'll make a Hotkey, I suppose I should be less subtle.
But, I'll make a Hotkey, I suppose I should be less subtle.
It is these "rolling groups" where you get the most difficult problems. Actually because of these I will not join PoJ "exit" and PoI "entrance" type groups any more. I am fairly tolerant and prepared to give people a bit of time to prove themselves, but there is just no fun in these types of group.
As you say, they usually start out quite well, and on the rare occasion you can have a good run and get a string of "replacements" that good players. But most of the time the quality just deteriorates, untill you know you have drawn the short straw and are stuck with the people that no-one else on the server ever wants to group with.
In these situations the only tactic that seems to have penetrated is the "run to exit ploy", I prefer to go work on my tradeskills if these are the only alternatives open.
PS. To answer your question, in this type of group there is simply no tatcic that a Cleric can use that will work. You could have six mobs root parked and yell your head off and the puller is still more than likely going to run off and pull another mob.
If you have inexhaustable patience and a great love of mankind, you could try to teach them about group tactics, or you could just DA and head for the exit yourself
Quote:
I'm going to assume I'm just not understanding what you mean, or that you mean something else by aggro. Atone wipes hate lists
Not very well it doesn't.
How does this sound?
Root mob, stand at maximum casting distance (tried standing further away but somehow it wouldn't work), cast Atone 4 times, "Your Root has worn off", Hello mob.
If you can travel beyond aggroed-pursuit range (ie the range at which a mob stops following rather than the range at which it will aggro) before your root breaks then guess what? The mob doesn't follow. Wow - must have Atoned it.
It should also work close range on non-aggro mobs that are accidentally aggroed since once mem-blurred they will no longer be KoS. No luck there either. It seems more like a Jolt than a Mem-blur, reducing hate by an amount but not wiping it.
When I first got it I was overjoyed, here was the solution to cleric travelling problems. "Just Root and Atone" people said - they weren't clerics.
To be honest I don't find it a useful spell. If it was so great people would be using it as an alternative to chanter mem-blur and I don't see that.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Hmmm, maybe it's a class thing but I've had very few problems using atone spells with my enchanter. They work great and have saved me many times.
Could it be that atone for clerics is like pacify for paladins, in that the highest available is actually a lower spell in the line and they just stop being effective after a certain level?
Could it be that atone for clerics is like pacify for paladins, in that the highest available is actually a lower spell in the line and they just stop being effective after a certain level?
Enchanters don't get "Atone"
Their first mem-blur is Mem Blur at 16 which is described as "memory blur 10%". From then on the percentage goes up to things like Mind Wipe (30%) and so on. The cleric Atone spell is described as "memory blur 1%".
So at 34 we get something one tenth as effective as your level 16 spell.
Their first mem-blur is Mem Blur at 16 which is described as "memory blur 10%". From then on the percentage goes up to things like Mind Wipe (30%) and so on. The cleric Atone spell is described as "memory blur 1%".
So at 34 we get something one tenth as effective as your level 16 spell.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Quote:
Well, first, don't gate unless everyone is dead. You don't want to get that reputation.
everyone would gate if they could, if the war could gate it would, if any caster that hadnt been aggroed could gate they would, you dont get a reputation for that stuff, maybe you get a reputation for swearing at newbs and training without shouting, and anyway its sooo hard to get a bad reputation, i donate 10pp for every kei i get, others pay 50 and some 500, i dont have a bad rep, i have been playing 2 years and been paying 10pp for kei the whole time, i have never heard a /ooc dont give dracoid kei, last time i cast it on him he wasnt as generous as others, even if i didnt pay,and ran away without even a thank you, it would be no harder to find kei, people dont write lists about who they should and shouldnt group with because of what happened last time
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