Last night we headed to the Oasis for a Takish LDON. Our cleric is working for his group temp points. Tak thus far has been one of the harder LDON's due to the confined areas with so many adds and at time just confusion of chaos. We started with a Chanter, Mage, Cleric, Druid, Necro and Paladin. Typically the Pally that plays with us is just killer with crowd control and can tank as well as any melee tank class. We lost him due to computer issues enroute and were forced to start the LDON without him. We completed one of the most organized and successfull LDON's I have ever participated in. We were mid to high 50's and did not experience the adds that we do with pullers and tanks. The Chanter was able to single pull with a direct healer on him. Necro's pet and Mage pet completely tanked the whole LDON without needing to be healed much and not one lost pet to death. I have to say it was the most fun we have ever had watching caster's prevail. So often in a group it seems the melee classes are looked at as the only class conquering the situation.
All that said I do have one question because I know so little about Chanters. My last three LDON's ended up the Chanter pulling due to computer issues or deaths to the melee class. I have seen excellent Chanter's and I have seen some very poor Chanter's. Fortunately the last three times they have been top class!!!! After each successful LDON they always insist we need a tank to pull. Each of those LDON's went better with them pulling than any melee class pulling. Why are Chanter's so hesitant to take the front role in a group?
- Forums
- EverQuest
- General Discussion
- Caster's LDON
Caster's LDONFollow
I'm don't play a chanter, but a couple possible reasons spring to mind:
(a) They're afraid the mana spent lulling will take away from what they need for CC, buffs, etc.
(b) They're afraid that, in the event of a critically failed lull, they'll get pounded into a bloody sack of robe by five adds before the cleric can heal them.
(c) They've rarely ever pulled, feel they don't know how, and are trying to avoid embarassment on their part.
(d) Along with (c), they may have "always" had tanks pull and they always played a back-up role as crowd control. They're not used to being on the "front lines".
Obviously any of those reasons can be refuted, but I bet it's one of those four going through their head. Especially in the 50's where lull resists are low, paladins can still lull pull, etc.
(a) They're afraid the mana spent lulling will take away from what they need for CC, buffs, etc.
(b) They're afraid that, in the event of a critically failed lull, they'll get pounded into a bloody sack of robe by five adds before the cleric can heal them.
(c) They've rarely ever pulled, feel they don't know how, and are trying to avoid embarassment on their part.
(d) Along with (c), they may have "always" had tanks pull and they always played a back-up role as crowd control. They're not used to being on the "front lines".
Obviously any of those reasons can be refuted, but I bet it's one of those four going through their head. Especially in the 50's where lull resists are low, paladins can still lull pull, etc.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Hi
As a Chanter i love to pull, the only problem i get is when the Tanks don't Taunt and i find when a tank dont want to pull hes the none taunting kind.
Blur its a top line of spells use them now :)
I am only 49th so i dont know about the high end side but i also find that mana dont last forever while i pull, in general i get asked to pull busy areas and the tanks will pull low population areas while i med. KEI and i can pull all the time and Rack and Stack the mobs which seems to annoy the tanks no end :) i love it.
I generally end up in pickup groups so you get allsorts of planks "sometimes" also grouped with some fantastic players.
The more you do it the better you get
Enusnu 49th
As a Chanter i love to pull, the only problem i get is when the Tanks don't Taunt and i find when a tank dont want to pull hes the none taunting kind.
Blur its a top line of spells use them now :)
I am only 49th so i dont know about the high end side but i also find that mana dont last forever while i pull, in general i get asked to pull busy areas and the tanks will pull low population areas while i med. KEI and i can pull all the time and Rack and Stack the mobs which seems to annoy the tanks no end :) i love it.
I generally end up in pickup groups so you get allsorts of planks "sometimes" also grouped with some fantastic players.
The more you do it the better you get
Enusnu 49th
I will say we were all buffed. C3 and virtue, along with Pet's temped. Our pets took agro fast only problem was targeting at times but we all know SOE has issues with that. Chanter's pets get confused in battle a lot but mem blur handled that quick enough. Being a Nec I know the front line feeling. When I use screaming terror it is a roll of the dice if it sticks then if the recasts hold. I do have FD if that works. Liching puts me at a lower health level but more often then not those things save a bad LDON. I just think Chanter's may sell themselves very short and see themselves more for buffs then true valued members of a group. In our guild everytime we get a chanter they end up making another toon because they feel they really are of no use fighting. I think learning some skills outside of buffing would give them a bit of confidence now that I have seen some good ones in action.
When LDoN came out, I quickly took the role of the groups' puller. (Many many times I even pulled rather than the bard.) Most likely Joph is correct on all accounts. Tough to tell without getting into the heads of those particular encs.
The biggest issues with chanter pulling is...
When doing LDoNs (well, at least when I used to do them on my enc...it's been awhile) I rarely would be above 15-20m. Thus if someone loses C or Haste, it gets rough. (Paci takes a good bit of mana.) Critical failures on lull happen, albeit rarely with enc cha. With a pickup group this is something to consider as you don't know what the group is capable of handling. This can be less of an issue with a good guild group or group that you've been with a few times.
Overall, enc's can pull an LDoN second to none, IF they know what they are doing. (ie. Pull with the lvl 8 dispell, use blur or boggle, keep self runed, etc). If they don't know what they're doing, it can be catastrophic.
The biggest issues with chanter pulling is...
Quote:
(a) They're afraid the mana spent lulling will take away from what they need for CC, buffs, etc.
(b) They're afraid that, in the event of a critically failed lull, they'll get pounded into a bloody sack of robe by five adds before the cleric can heal them.
(b) They're afraid that, in the event of a critically failed lull, they'll get pounded into a bloody sack of robe by five adds before the cleric can heal them.
When doing LDoNs (well, at least when I used to do them on my enc...it's been awhile) I rarely would be above 15-20m. Thus if someone loses C or Haste, it gets rough. (Paci takes a good bit of mana.) Critical failures on lull happen, albeit rarely with enc cha. With a pickup group this is something to consider as you don't know what the group is capable of handling. This can be less of an issue with a good guild group or group that you've been with a few times.
Overall, enc's can pull an LDoN second to none, IF they know what they are doing. (ie. Pull with the lvl 8 dispell, use blur or boggle, keep self runed, etc). If they don't know what they're doing, it can be catastrophic.
I've pulled as monk, cleric, bard and SK in ldons.
I've played main healer as druid and cleric.
I've tanked as sk, ranger, magician (pet tank) and bard.
I've played crowd control as druid, ranger, bard and cleric.
If the persons behind the characters know what they are doing and use the characters' tools to the full, any odd group can win LDoNs. A perfectly balanced group with bad players can wipe on every pull.
Edited, Tue Apr 20 13:46:00 2004 by Assailant
I've played main healer as druid and cleric.
I've tanked as sk, ranger, magician (pet tank) and bard.
I've played crowd control as druid, ranger, bard and cleric.
If the persons behind the characters know what they are doing and use the characters' tools to the full, any odd group can win LDoNs. A perfectly balanced group with bad players can wipe on every pull.
Edited, Tue Apr 20 13:46:00 2004 by Assailant
I have pulled in LDON as a cleric and I think I did a great job. We had another cleric so I was not main healer. I was able to use pacy and root and I was always a good puller with my warrior and his bow (way back when).
I think it is the person pulling mroe than the class, for the most part.
Enchies are hit point challenged...so anything role that will add to the possibility of them getting the snot beat out of them is approached with hesitation. I ahve a good friend who I group with a lot who is an enchie. She is a great puller. We always seem more successful when she is pulling than if she is not. She alwys says that she will have less mana for CC but when she pulls we never really have a CC issue...or to state it batter, she provides the CC on the front end.
One note about Tak. I went in on three different occasions when I was in my upper 20s and lower 30s. Nasty vile place. Lost all three of them and we had gpopd groups. Got wiped multiple times. Recently in my upper 40s I went back because I want my group temp spell too, and they are not nearly as tough as they once were. I don;t know if the dungeon makeup is just better suited for our levels or if it is done this way on purpose. Whatever the case, I love the place now. Great change of pace from the tunnels and castle rooms of MM.
I think it is the person pulling mroe than the class, for the most part.
Enchies are hit point challenged...so anything role that will add to the possibility of them getting the snot beat out of them is approached with hesitation. I ahve a good friend who I group with a lot who is an enchie. She is a great puller. We always seem more successful when she is pulling than if she is not. She alwys says that she will have less mana for CC but when she pulls we never really have a CC issue...or to state it batter, she provides the CC on the front end.
One note about Tak. I went in on three different occasions when I was in my upper 20s and lower 30s. Nasty vile place. Lost all three of them and we had gpopd groups. Got wiped multiple times. Recently in my upper 40s I went back because I want my group temp spell too, and they are not nearly as tough as they once were. I don;t know if the dungeon makeup is just better suited for our levels or if it is done this way on purpose. Whatever the case, I love the place now. Great change of pace from the tunnels and castle rooms of MM.
Follow up from hasty post this morning :)
As always, Assailant and Ihuffman hit it right on the nose. The player behind the puller is what makes the biggest difference. Different classes get different tools, but a good puller will get the job done. Enchanters (and to a lesser extent bards*) just happen to have the best set of tools to use. Lulls really are a "pre-emptive" version of CC so this fits right in with the chanter's role. This, however, gets very mana intensive especially if the enc in question is the main slower. Also there is our distinct lack of hps, but that can be overcome with Runes (at the higher levels this is more efficient with Arcane Rune).
Young enc's also have an innate fear of death that needs to be overcome. If you're an active enc, and you don't die at least once per group/raid, you aren't doing your job ;) "Feen Down!" used to be the offical start of all guild raids...
*Bards are great as they don't use mana for their CC/Pulling tools, however their lull's are extremely short duration and they have a much smaller limit on the # of mobs mezzed at a single time.
ps. Tak has some very tough to break rooms that can wipe even great pullers. Other than those, it's a fun place to romp through :)
As always, Assailant and Ihuffman hit it right on the nose. The player behind the puller is what makes the biggest difference. Different classes get different tools, but a good puller will get the job done. Enchanters (and to a lesser extent bards*) just happen to have the best set of tools to use. Lulls really are a "pre-emptive" version of CC so this fits right in with the chanter's role. This, however, gets very mana intensive especially if the enc in question is the main slower. Also there is our distinct lack of hps, but that can be overcome with Runes (at the higher levels this is more efficient with Arcane Rune).
Young enc's also have an innate fear of death that needs to be overcome. If you're an active enc, and you don't die at least once per group/raid, you aren't doing your job ;) "Feen Down!" used to be the offical start of all guild raids...
*Bards are great as they don't use mana for their CC/Pulling tools, however their lull's are extremely short duration and they have a much smaller limit on the # of mobs mezzed at a single time.
ps. Tak has some very tough to break rooms that can wipe even great pullers. Other than those, it's a fun place to romp through :)
Enchanters can make very good dungeon pullers. Once upon a time the old guild's best (well second best to honest, we had one of the best Monks of all time) raid pull team was a Chanter and Cleric.
But as said already, it is very much a matter of player skill and practice.
I disagree with Feen though, I think dying frequently is one of the signs of a poor Chanter. They have so many tools to ensure that this doesn't happen. Probably only a Necro is similarly equipped.
But I think this is where some of the issue lies, the most difficult problem a Chanter faces at any one time, is that limit of 8 spell slots. Sure all casters would like more spell slots, but really for most classes it would make no difference to how you play, a cleric could have every heal, stun and nuke in his/her spell book memmed and he/she would still use the same 3 or 4 spells over and over and rarely touch the others.
A Chanter though, is the only class that I know of, that has to activelty swap spell sets in the middle of battle in order to get the best out of their class.
If a Chanter is set up properly for pulling and CC, pretty much every spell slot is used, as soon as the MA calls for "haste" or "boon" the Chanter is faced with swapping spells. Or at least having to compromise on what might be the ideal spell line up.
Now I know that this is part of the special skill set that makes for a "good" Enchanter, but it is quite difficult to deal with, and I can see why many who play a Chanter either end up sticking pretty much to the one dimension they feel comfortable with and why others give up on the class.
But to see a really good Enchanter in action, pulling, CCing, slowing, keeping melees hasted and buffed and dispelling the mobs and crippling them, doing this consistently all night (and not dying every third pull) is a thing to be greatly admired.
But as said already, it is very much a matter of player skill and practice.
I disagree with Feen though, I think dying frequently is one of the signs of a poor Chanter. They have so many tools to ensure that this doesn't happen. Probably only a Necro is similarly equipped.
But I think this is where some of the issue lies, the most difficult problem a Chanter faces at any one time, is that limit of 8 spell slots. Sure all casters would like more spell slots, but really for most classes it would make no difference to how you play, a cleric could have every heal, stun and nuke in his/her spell book memmed and he/she would still use the same 3 or 4 spells over and over and rarely touch the others.
A Chanter though, is the only class that I know of, that has to activelty swap spell sets in the middle of battle in order to get the best out of their class.
If a Chanter is set up properly for pulling and CC, pretty much every spell slot is used, as soon as the MA calls for "haste" or "boon" the Chanter is faced with swapping spells. Or at least having to compromise on what might be the ideal spell line up.
Now I know that this is part of the special skill set that makes for a "good" Enchanter, but it is quite difficult to deal with, and I can see why many who play a Chanter either end up sticking pretty much to the one dimension they feel comfortable with and why others give up on the class.
But to see a really good Enchanter in action, pulling, CCing, slowing, keeping melees hasted and buffed and dispelling the mobs and crippling them, doing this consistently all night (and not dying every third pull) is a thing to be greatly admired.
Quote:
I disagree with Feen though, I think dying frequently is one of the signs of a poor Chanter.
I kind of disagree with this as well. Two things. I play both a Chanter and a Cleric. I believe if the Chanter dies in a normal LDoN level 65, Cleric is as much at fault as the Chanter. In all my LDoN adventures, chanter only died once in my watch, and that was due to a really bad pull with 7 mobs. When a bad pull happens, which can happen with a failure of Pacification, even the best Chanter will have difficult time surviving the pummeling, even with the Arcane Rune and the AoE mezzing. It doesn't take much for the Chanter to die. Cleric can last a bit more, I can CC about 2-3 mobs with root park on a good day. So, when a bad pull come, I try to draw aggro on a couple of mobs by casting a quick heal on the chanter. Then I try to root park, which gives the Chanter time to mez the mobs. If it really gets bad, I can run faster than the mob, I try to run a burst to heal myself or hit DA.
Quote:
Enchanters (and to a lesser extent bards*) just happen to have the best set of tools to use. Lulls really are a "pre-emptive" version of CC so this fits right in with the chanter's role.
I disagree to a certain extend. I think Clerics have just as good tool to pre-emptive as Enchanters. We get Pacification at 65, same as the ones Chanters use for Lull. First of all, Clerics usually have twice the HP and AC than Chanters. We can survive a bad pull better than Chanters and still cast Lull type spells. Also, we can root park so when we do have a bad pull, we can leave a couple of mobs behind, as a Chanter would do with a mez. We can pull with Mark of King line of spell so there would be no aggro for tanks to worry about when the mob arrive, they will gain aggro fast. At higher level, Bards are the best pullers I have seen but with Pacification, Clerics can be a better puller than Chanters. However, it's dangerous to pull with the only healer in the group (and the only rezzer). I would pull if we have a Shammie/Druid and/or Pally in the group.
Taushar
Edited, Tue Apr 20 23:58:50 2004 by Taushar
As Taushar is suggesting, it certainly does come down to good team work as well. No matter how brilliant the Chanter may be at the end of the day without good team work all the best skills can come to naught.
Heh, the Chanter may well be able to to control a bunch of angry mobs with her PBAOE stun/mez (for a while), but if the Cleric/Druid doesn't step in pretty soon and assist it will end in a nasty smear of blood on the wall.
It is amusing for a very short space of time, 7 mobs run round the corner and zero in on the Chanter. Chanter cast Color Skew, mobs stop dead in their tracks dazzled by the pretty colors. A few seconds later some of the mobs wake up and take a step toward the Chanter, Chanter casts Color Skew again. Mobs stop dead etc. A few more seonds, some mobs wake up and take another step toward the Chanter, now a couple of them are in melee range, they get in a hit or two, Chanter casts Color Skew....
By the third time enough mobs are in melee range that in the time it takes to cast (or recast if you get an unlucky interupt) the Chanter has started taking some serious hits. During this time the Chanter is despertely trying to get longer term mezzes off, but eventually one or two mobs break through rune and down goes the Chanter. A Chanter can make this last a very long time by alternating Entrancing Lights and Color Skew, but the end result is the same, unless some help arrives and some one buys the Chanter enough time to get full mezzes on.
Of course if the Druid or Cleric had their wits about them, they would run up next to the Chanter and start alternating Earthquake and Upheaval.
Heh, the Chanter may well be able to to control a bunch of angry mobs with her PBAOE stun/mez (for a while), but if the Cleric/Druid doesn't step in pretty soon and assist it will end in a nasty smear of blood on the wall.
It is amusing for a very short space of time, 7 mobs run round the corner and zero in on the Chanter. Chanter cast Color Skew, mobs stop dead in their tracks dazzled by the pretty colors. A few seconds later some of the mobs wake up and take a step toward the Chanter, Chanter casts Color Skew again. Mobs stop dead etc. A few more seonds, some mobs wake up and take another step toward the Chanter, now a couple of them are in melee range, they get in a hit or two, Chanter casts Color Skew....
By the third time enough mobs are in melee range that in the time it takes to cast (or recast if you get an unlucky interupt) the Chanter has started taking some serious hits. During this time the Chanter is despertely trying to get longer term mezzes off, but eventually one or two mobs break through rune and down goes the Chanter. A Chanter can make this last a very long time by alternating Entrancing Lights and Color Skew, but the end result is the same, unless some help arrives and some one buys the Chanter enough time to get full mezzes on.
Of course if the Druid or Cleric had their wits about them, they would run up next to the Chanter and start alternating Earthquake and Upheaval.
36 posts
The perfect group is a Cleric for heals, Mage, Mage pet to tank (smarter than any warrior, pally, sk, etc), Chanter (C, slows, speed).
Hehe, the death thing is a bit of an inside joke :) but the fear of death is something that an enc needs to overcome (we play with high aggro spells, on very lowly aggroed mobs...it's bound to happen). (also of note, I am one of a couple primary guild pullers...so that has some effect on my survival rate.)
A cleric makes a good puller yes, they share the same lull spells as an enc, and they can root park with the best of them. Of course, this is much work for the average cleric on top of his main healing duties. Especially if he's paired with a sub-par tank.
All in all, whatever works, works. Taken as a whole, an enc will suprass a cleric's pulling/cc capabilities. (assuming else is equal). Not to say a cleric can't pull or CC, just their primary talents lie elsewhere. Guess I kinda went off track :) which is common for me. (and rephrasing everything that's been said...:( (I lack at posting.) Looks like I kinda combined pulling and CC into one piece (probably because for myself, it basically is). But oh well...disregard the man behind the dress.
A cleric makes a good puller yes, they share the same lull spells as an enc, and they can root park with the best of them. Of course, this is much work for the average cleric on top of his main healing duties. Especially if he's paired with a sub-par tank.
All in all, whatever works, works. Taken as a whole, an enc will suprass a cleric's pulling/cc capabilities. (assuming else is equal). Not to say a cleric can't pull or CC, just their primary talents lie elsewhere. Guess I kinda went off track :) which is common for me. (and rephrasing everything that's been said...:( (I lack at posting.) Looks like I kinda combined pulling and CC into one piece (probably because for myself, it basically is). But oh well...disregard the man behind the dress.
Well on the subject of clerics we once again return to Tak last night. The cleric needs his last points for group heal.
Tak in 40's are not bad in 50's they get rough. Many spells don't stick in that low 50's range so if you can get your points for group temp do it as soon as possible. Tak is notorious for multiple pulls, staircases and hallways.
We did not have an enchanter and again finding a tank was hard. Seems all the tanks are going away!!! We did end up with a lower level SK and Rgr. So we were not completely dry but 3k Hps is not much for Tak if you have ever been on one.
We decided before starting who would do what. 2 Necro's we split jobs one to dot and one to crowd control. Wizzy well all I could hope for is ice comet someday! SK and Rgr were tanking and our only healer was the puller. I was at first against it but the healer who has a high level monk as his main went through that ldon flawlessly even better than the enchanter. So now I am sold on Chanters and Clerics but I think someone stated before this post it is about the person playing the toon. All of us knew our toon well and we listened! We did only the job we were suppose to and completed it successfully, moral to the story the cleric got group temp!
Tak in 40's are not bad in 50's they get rough. Many spells don't stick in that low 50's range so if you can get your points for group temp do it as soon as possible. Tak is notorious for multiple pulls, staircases and hallways.
We did not have an enchanter and again finding a tank was hard. Seems all the tanks are going away!!! We did end up with a lower level SK and Rgr. So we were not completely dry but 3k Hps is not much for Tak if you have ever been on one.
We decided before starting who would do what. 2 Necro's we split jobs one to dot and one to crowd control. Wizzy well all I could hope for is ice comet someday! SK and Rgr were tanking and our only healer was the puller. I was at first against it but the healer who has a high level monk as his main went through that ldon flawlessly even better than the enchanter. So now I am sold on Chanters and Clerics but I think someone stated before this post it is about the person playing the toon. All of us knew our toon well and we listened! We did only the job we were suppose to and completed it successfully, moral to the story the cleric got group temp!
Recent Visitors: 168
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (168)
- Forums
- EverQuest
- General Discussion
- Caster's LDON
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC