What you like about BerzerkersFollow

Sorry, but your tanking ability is nothing remotely like a Paladin. Not even in the same universe. See below.

Regarding Armour/AC/HP and tanking ability. AC and HP are only part of the equation. We have had this debate before with Shaman and Monks. You cannot simply say that because X class has more HP (or AC) it is therefore a better tank or can mitigate more damage. It just does not work that way.

If it did, my Cleric could claim to be a tank!

Defense, Dodge, Parry, Riposte, Block all play a very significant part in the combat calculation, there are also some significant unknown factors that are at play between classes something innate that makes AC and Defense more effective for some classes compared to others.

(We are ignoring disciplines and special skills here).

A Ranger has Defense of 220, Dodge of 170, Parry of 220, Riposte of 185.

A Warrior has Defense of 252, Dodge of 175, Parry of 230, Riposte of 225.

So you can see from this, that even with exact same AC and HP and ignoring the "unknown" mitigation factor, the higher caps in the critical defensive skills places the Warrior many leagues ahead of a Ranger.

Now for the interesting bit;

A Monk has Defense of 252, Dodge of 230, Block of 230, Riposte of 225.

Why does a Monk with the same AC and HP not tank as well as a Warrior?

Just to complete the picture;

A Berserker has Defense of 240, Dodge of 175, Parry of 175, Riposte of 225.

A Paladin has Defense of 252, Dodge of 155, Parry of 205, Riposte of 200.




Well, lets first eliminate the old chestnut about "every one can tank" yes even Bards can tank, even Beastlords and Shaman claim to be able to tank.

Lets talk about "tanking efficiently". I know that is still a subjective matter, but lets hope some common sense will prevail.

First of all, it is the healer that is in the best position to decide what is most efficient, what is tolarable and, what has them curled up in the fetal position lying on the ground whimpering.

My yardstick as a Cleric/Druid healer, is to be able to keep a group alive and functioning well, without KEI. If I can do that I reckon that things are reasonably well balanced and in control.

If I have to have KEI to manage, then things are not working well. If I do happen to have KEI and things are going well, I can contribute some stuns and nukes or whatever.

In terms of pure best mana efficiency, nothing beats a warrior. They simply take less damage overall and these days seldom loose aggro, so no one else needs healing (except the puller). But, in many situations a paladin is better, simply because the puller and tank are the one and the same and I only have to heal one person. Makes tactics dead easy and very easy to conserve mana.

Shadowknights come in next, a good SK is almost indistinguishable from a Paladin as far as the healer is concerned.

Then there is a huge gap, a gulf, something the size of the Grand Canyon, down to the next level of tank. Yes a well played Ranger who has concentrated on getting the best armour he/she can get, can manage to tank a bit, but the healing becomes dramatically more difficult. Ditto a Monk, they can if push comes to shove, still tank, but the healer better have KEI and better be right at the top of their game.

My experience, so far, is that a Bezerker is on a par with a Ranger and a Monk. I don't know which order you would put them in but it seems a rather fine point to me, they are all pretty much the same.

Then come the rest, Bards, Rogues, Beastlords and anyone else who wants to have a go, may as well have the Chanter tank as far as I'm concerned.



PS... Looking at the Zerker's overall combat skill list, I can't help wondering if the designers haven't got this one wrong for a high damage dealing class. Offense capped at 252, Double Attack capped at 245, no dual Wield. That Frenzy will need to be a mighty powerful tool, otherwise there seems little to set them apart, (just as people are finding it seems).

I've also yet to see a Berserker pick up a huge boulder and throw it at the enemy too


Edited, Tue Apr 20 00:25:27 2004 by Iluien

Yes I understand what you are saying, my experience in these areas has always been with our regular bunch, 65 cleric, and two druids, even though we cover for one another pretty well, we still manage our share of CRs. I think Celeni would be struggling by herself as well.

I think this just adds to my point, the further you get into these types of mobs, the less likely it is that a "makeshift" tank can do the job. At times we have to make do with out a slower, even with the cleric dropping a HoT before engagement and one of us druids hitting semi CH at the same time, it is touch and go before the cleric lands her first CH.

And this is with a 65 Warrior tanking, I doubt that a Pally would survive long enough, (we will soon know our young pally is 58), Iluien lasts for as long as weaponshield lasts (just long enough for the cleric to camp and monk to FD, if we are lucky, ). If our Monk suffers a fit of bravado and tries to fight instead of FD he lasts around as long as Iluien, one and a half CHs. Well, maybe the Monk lasts one and three quarter CHs and Iluien lasts one and one quarter, , makes not much difference either way.

(Yeah yeah, I know, Time equipped Chanters with one arm tied behind their backs can tank these mobs, but we are not there yet. We are doing it with CT and Luclin gear.)