Come on. Using Temp and PL'ing is something that certain people are bound to do. Why restrict it? In most cases those that are paying for Temp are not a new player. They're older players who are starting a new character and don't feel like spending hours trying to get their new character where they are actually fun to play. I get bored with the low levels because you can't really group on certain servers. So without temp and such it would be a huge hassle. It's no different than taking stuff from one charry and giving it to another. Just deal with it. If you don't like the way the game is currently, then don't sell the temps and the other buffs. However, it is not really anyone's place to complain about what someone else does unless it's cheating.
Maverickdab
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Interesting thread: I am much in sympathy with the original post, and the level approriate concept of spells is ALREADY in the game. My newer line (as a shammy) of buffs from about 50 on are all level limited.
I DONT like the idea of the game becoming completely monochromatic. It makes it interesting when there are special buffs that for whatever reason are more powerful that one class has. The game isn't "fair".. its challenging. For a buff like that to exist throws a curve on the players side as opposed to the npcs.
I wonder if the way through is to have a new aspect to buffs (not yet mentioned in the thread) such that buffs like this have a variable effect depending on the level of the character they land on. Yup, new code I'm sure, but THIS way the fun of having good buffs around for lower players does not dissapear, but the somewhat unreasonable effect is lowered for a level 1 and so on.
By the way, there are MANY good buffs for lower players. Temp is of course very nice.. but give me a high damage shield and regen (thanks druid friend) and I will not even bother to fight.. .just find a red and stand there. Why dont we all howl for this combo? Partly because druids dont stand in PoK selling it, and partly because it doesnt last long.
As a shammy, I can land huge hp, str, dex, regen haste combos on lower players (and often do). Problem? several spells to get it all on, and a fair manna drain.
So SOME mods to the spell temp would make sense, but in reality, clerics sitting and selling ALSO make it the "buff of choice", as well as its DURATION.
I DONT like the idea of the game becoming completely monochromatic. It makes it interesting when there are special buffs that for whatever reason are more powerful that one class has. The game isn't "fair".. its challenging. For a buff like that to exist throws a curve on the players side as opposed to the npcs.
I wonder if the way through is to have a new aspect to buffs (not yet mentioned in the thread) such that buffs like this have a variable effect depending on the level of the character they land on. Yup, new code I'm sure, but THIS way the fun of having good buffs around for lower players does not dissapear, but the somewhat unreasonable effect is lowered for a level 1 and so on.
By the way, there are MANY good buffs for lower players. Temp is of course very nice.. but give me a high damage shield and regen (thanks druid friend) and I will not even bother to fight.. .just find a red and stand there. Why dont we all howl for this combo? Partly because druids dont stand in PoK selling it, and partly because it doesnt last long.
As a shammy, I can land huge hp, str, dex, regen haste combos on lower players (and often do). Problem? several spells to get it all on, and a fair manna drain.
So SOME mods to the spell temp would make sense, but in reality, clerics sitting and selling ALSO make it the "buff of choice", as well as its DURATION.
Quote:
By this standard, if a mob casts an 800 dd on the same char, the dd should do 8 damage.
The point here is that the lower level characters are getting super-buffs and making other groupmates ineffective or groups even needless. By the time the buffs mean less(meaning at the higher levels), the characters often didn't learn basic strategies that the higher levels need because they were relying to much on massive HP's and other buffs to keep them safe.
Mobs getting their damage scaled down(even if it's only spells and not melee damage) would actually become HIGHLY exploitable if such things were allowed to happen. The "all or nothing" mentality doesn't or shouldn't apply here.
Temp seriously is a VERY powerful spell and really much too powerful for lower level characters, I fully agree with a level limit on this spell, 25-30 is most reasonable. Certain other spells might need to be looked at too, but none are the offender this one is. I happen to have a 65 Cleric myself.
Kei being able to be cast on lower levels was actually an unintentional bug that they took a long time to fix, Temp was meant for the lower levels though, but I think should have limits.
I wonder how many of you have asking for this type of nerf have complained about your class or your nifty new weapon being nerfed in the past.
Its truly strange that you would want to hamper peoples enjoyment of the game. I enjoy buffing noobs- it makes me chuckle to think I was once one and remembering how a friendly buff made my day that much more enjoyable.
If you dont think noobs should get temp or other high level buffs, dont cast it on them. This doesnt need a nerfing- people can nerf it if they choose by simply refusing to buff lower levels. Simple as that.
Burn the nerf bat
Its truly strange that you would want to hamper peoples enjoyment of the game. I enjoy buffing noobs- it makes me chuckle to think I was once one and remembering how a friendly buff made my day that much more enjoyable.
If you dont think noobs should get temp or other high level buffs, dont cast it on them. This doesnt need a nerfing- people can nerf it if they choose by simply refusing to buff lower levels. Simple as that.
Burn the nerf bat
1 post
Buff on lower level charters should scale as if they were cast by a person of that players level for effect but leave duration as is.
So Kei would be 1mana per tick not 14 if cast on a level one charcter but would still be 2.30mins duration. Virtue would give same hp and ac as Courage but have duration of Virtue.
That would both stop buff twinking and also give lower levels being buffed by high levels a benifit from getting high level buffs.
So Kei would be 1mana per tick not 14 if cast on a level one charcter but would still be 2.30mins duration. Virtue would give same hp and ac as Courage but have duration of Virtue.
That would both stop buff twinking and also give lower levels being buffed by high levels a benifit from getting high level buffs.
The aspect that Cobra raised that I think is very significant is the impact it has on grouping skills.
How about the poor low level cleric looking to group with these super buffed newbies? As stated he has virtually no role to play (well, at least not his true and proper role), how is the cleric to learn about healing techniques? Buffing and mana conservation? Buff stacking? Aggro management?
So many things are completely denied to the cleric that in this situation the cleric is likely to either abandon his/her class or become the sort of mid level cleric that every one is terrified that they may accidentally group with.
The tank or melee type that is super buffed and so fails to learn some of the more refined techniques may get a second chance later on and "relearn" their role, because they can be covered by good healers and CC. But a cleric or enchanter (among some others) that learns the game in this fashion is unlikely to ever recover and is doomed to be a substandard player indefinitely. (Unless the roll and start again and have good fortune to meet up with some decent players who will help them unlearn many levels of bad habits).
I still see the evidence of poor playing skills among the high 50's and 60's that were encouraged by KEI, even today. Healers and CCers growing up with a generation of "invulnerable" tanks will have a terrible time when they do reach the upper levels, older players will shun them and their current "peers" will grow to shun them as well, as they realise that skilled healers and CCers are esential when the "super buffs" get equalised by the "super mobs".
How about the poor low level cleric looking to group with these super buffed newbies? As stated he has virtually no role to play (well, at least not his true and proper role), how is the cleric to learn about healing techniques? Buffing and mana conservation? Buff stacking? Aggro management?
So many things are completely denied to the cleric that in this situation the cleric is likely to either abandon his/her class or become the sort of mid level cleric that every one is terrified that they may accidentally group with.
The tank or melee type that is super buffed and so fails to learn some of the more refined techniques may get a second chance later on and "relearn" their role, because they can be covered by good healers and CC. But a cleric or enchanter (among some others) that learns the game in this fashion is unlikely to ever recover and is doomed to be a substandard player indefinitely. (Unless the roll and start again and have good fortune to meet up with some decent players who will help them unlearn many levels of bad habits).
I still see the evidence of poor playing skills among the high 50's and 60's that were encouraged by KEI, even today. Healers and CCers growing up with a generation of "invulnerable" tanks will have a terrible time when they do reach the upper levels, older players will shun them and their current "peers" will grow to shun them as well, as they realise that skilled healers and CCers are esential when the "super buffs" get equalised by the "super mobs".
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So SOME mods to the spell temp would make sense, but in reality, clerics sitting and selling ALSO make it the "buff of choice", as well as its DURATION.
Hmmmm....I think you may be onto something here. Instead of nerfing what level character you can cast a spell upon, what if the duration of the spell was effected by the difference in levels between the caster and recipient? Just to grab some numbers out of thin air, let's say if the recipient was 1-5 levels from the caster the duration would be 100%. If the recipient was 5-10 levels the duration would be 75%...etc. Eventually the duration would be so short as not to make it not worth the effort of the newbies to recieve the buff.
Note: the percentages and level differences are just an example and you can make them whatever you want. It's the concept that is being conveyed. Just a brainstorming idea...
Iluien worte:
was in Highkeep basement the other day (prolly 4 weeks ago). was lvl 30 (pally) soloing away, pulling to the stairs using soothe. well, 2 or 3 more joined later and insisted on pulling them gobs all in one go (one had more than 2 k HP at lvl 30, twinked and Buffed). well, I simply left the group and took a stroll to runnyeye instead...
might well be, that they know how to play properly, but just want to level up quickly. ok, but not with me, am a newbie, gotta learn the old fashioned way...
and yes, I know it's nerve racking, when you are i.e. in unrest basement, soothe 7 - pull one, soothe 6 - pull one, soothe 5 - pull one, soothe 4 - pull one...
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The tank or melee type that is super buffed and so fails to learn some of the more refined techniques may get a second chance later on and "relearn" their role, because they can be covered by good healers and CC. But a cleric or enchanter (among some others) that learns the game in this fashion is unlikely to ever recover and is doomed to be a substandard player indefinitely. (Unless they roll and start again and have good fortune to meet up with some decent players who will help them unlearn many levels of bad habits).
was in Highkeep basement the other day (prolly 4 weeks ago). was lvl 30 (pally) soloing away, pulling to the stairs using soothe. well, 2 or 3 more joined later and insisted on pulling them gobs all in one go (one had more than 2 k HP at lvl 30, twinked and Buffed). well, I simply left the group and took a stroll to runnyeye instead...
might well be, that they know how to play properly, but just want to level up quickly. ok, but not with me, am a newbie, gotta learn the old fashioned way...
and yes, I know it's nerve racking, when you are i.e. in unrest basement, soothe 7 - pull one, soothe 6 - pull one, soothe 5 - pull one, soothe 4 - pull one...
Still a noob. :-P
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
mtardy wrote:
It is merely common sense that if a 65 Ranger cannot cast Call of the Rathe on a level 20 warrior because "The spell is too powerful for your target.", then the same 65 Ranger should receive the same message when he attempts to cast Frozen Wind on the Level 20 warrior during a /duel.
On the other hand a 65 Ranger trying to cast a damage spell on a 20 lvl warrior won't be able to do so, even on most PvP servers. And if the same ranger does this with 20 lvl mobs he will get some skill ups but no XP of course ;-)
35 posts
This is just silly. I think this is the first time in my 4 years of playing EQ that players are encouraging SOE to nerf things.
Why? Who cares?
Considering that most of the people who are getting temp are alts of higher players, this argument is silly. Newbies are broke, and a level 1 'true newbie' isn't going to go to PoK asking for temp - they probably have no idea what temp is. A true newbie couldn't afford temp anyway, and if they could, let them buy it who cares?
It IS ridiculous to grade detrimental spells, and it IS equally ridculous to grade beneficial spells.
Exactly - ridiculous.
You know what's more ridiculous? - people promoting nerfs :-)
Peace out.
Naero
Edited, Mon Apr 5 13:46:51 2004 by naero
Why? Who cares?
Considering that most of the people who are getting temp are alts of higher players, this argument is silly. Newbies are broke, and a level 1 'true newbie' isn't going to go to PoK asking for temp - they probably have no idea what temp is. A true newbie couldn't afford temp anyway, and if they could, let them buy it who cares?
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It IS ridiculous to grade detrimental spells, and it IS equally ridculous to grade beneficial spells.
Exactly - ridiculous.
You know what's more ridiculous? - people promoting nerfs :-)
Peace out.
Naero
Edited, Mon Apr 5 13:46:51 2004 by naero
naero wrote:
This is just silly. I think this is the first time in my 4 years of playing EQ that players are encouraging SOE to nerf things.
Actually, it's not the first time in four years that players have called for a nerf of some game feature.
I remember, not too long ago in fact, people complaining incessantly about the unbalancing effect of having items like the delightful orb of forgotten magic, and copper hammer of striking processing at level one. I happened to be one of those people.
A lot of players were very happy when those were given a higher level to process. I'm sure there's more examples, as some players are actually more concerned with overall game balance than just being able to swing away at whatever red con they come across on thier level 10 alt.
I'm probably the last person I would ever expect to ask for something to be nerfed. I cried when they added a 30 second cast time to the reaper of the dead. I moaned when they put the level 45 level limit on KEI. I thought they were just trying to take my fun away, make the game needlessly harder... but that is exactly what there are trying to do, without the 'needless'.
EQ is fun when it is challenging. It used to be extremely challenging from level 1 right on up. Twinkage and Sony's very delayed use of recommended levels on gear almost broke the game. Each expansion introduces gear that increases the power of the player vs. the mob. When this new gear trickles down to the new player / low level player, it messes up the very fragile game balance at those levels. Now clearly they have to keep making gear better, players stronger, mobs harder to keep the interest of those who are at the bleeding edge of the high level game. What they must also do is carefully prevent this mudflation from completely trivializing the low end game.
We are at the point where levels 1-25 are completely trivial. Levels 25-50 are becoming trivial. The old content is no match for our new buffs and gear that would have made level 50's drool 4 years ago. Now if your only intention is to get to level 65 ASAP and get 'on with the game' then this works for you. If, however, you enjoy every level you earn because each one is what playing the game is all about, then this game breaking unbalance is sucking the challenge and fun right out.
With this gear and these buffs, there is no need to group. If you do group, the healers can't keep up with your 2khp by casting 30 point heals. Before the KEI nerf, groups/soloers had no need to ask a chanter to join them, they already had better. Even worse, you level up in places where you have absolutely no desire to even loot; you already have better and the crap that drops won't even sell in the bazaar.
The game is breaking little by little, and all we are trying to do is take just one little piece back. A level 1 necromancer with 1k hp is ridiculous. It is unbalancing, it is broken.
The level 60+ content is where the challenge is now, but it doesn't have to be that way. If the game was just as challenging from 1-60, we all wouldn't be in such a rush to get to 65.
I haven't played everquest for 5 years so I would be able to play Diablo III.
EQ is fun when it is challenging. It used to be extremely challenging from level 1 right on up. Twinkage and Sony's very delayed use of recommended levels on gear almost broke the game. Each expansion introduces gear that increases the power of the player vs. the mob. When this new gear trickles down to the new player / low level player, it messes up the very fragile game balance at those levels. Now clearly they have to keep making gear better, players stronger, mobs harder to keep the interest of those who are at the bleeding edge of the high level game. What they must also do is carefully prevent this mudflation from completely trivializing the low end game.
We are at the point where levels 1-25 are completely trivial. Levels 25-50 are becoming trivial. The old content is no match for our new buffs and gear that would have made level 50's drool 4 years ago. Now if your only intention is to get to level 65 ASAP and get 'on with the game' then this works for you. If, however, you enjoy every level you earn because each one is what playing the game is all about, then this game breaking unbalance is sucking the challenge and fun right out.
With this gear and these buffs, there is no need to group. If you do group, the healers can't keep up with your 2khp by casting 30 point heals. Before the KEI nerf, groups/soloers had no need to ask a chanter to join them, they already had better. Even worse, you level up in places where you have absolutely no desire to even loot; you already have better and the crap that drops won't even sell in the bazaar.
The game is breaking little by little, and all we are trying to do is take just one little piece back. A level 1 necromancer with 1k hp is ridiculous. It is unbalancing, it is broken.
The level 60+ content is where the challenge is now, but it doesn't have to be that way. If the game was just as challenging from 1-60, we all wouldn't be in such a rush to get to 65.
I haven't played everquest for 5 years so I would be able to play Diablo III.
35 posts
Quote:
I remember, not too long ago in fact, people complaining incessantly about the unbalancing effect of having items like the delightful orb of forgotten magic, and copper hammer of striking processing at level one. I happened to be one of those people.
And so I ask again - why do you care?
The plain and simple fact is that you guys are complaining about a game. It's a game, it's meant to be fun, it's not meant to be a way of life. You are taking it too seriously.
Why not worry about world hunger instead of why a lvl 1 character in a fictional game can get a temp? Would be a much better use of your time :-)
I am very well versed in all the classes, and have played all of them. Is it unfair that I took my new bard from 1-20 in 4 hours? Do you think I don't know how to play the class because of that? You are generalizing a big group of people, many who have leveled toons already and are adding an alt for fun or for their guild (which is what my bard is for).
So stop complaining. Why do you care? How does me leveling my bard fast (and yes OMFG I used temp) effect you in any way whatsoever?
Peace out
Naero
naero wrote:
Why not worry about world hunger instead of why a lvl 1 character in a fictional game can get a temp? Would be a much better use of your time :-)
Are you saying because I'd like everquest to be balanced that I can't be concerned about other things in life?
That I'm not, say....a volunteer at a downtown soup kitchen? Or that I don't help charitable organizations such as Ananda Marga? That I haven't helped set up recycling programs in my local community? Are you saying there's only ONE thing in the world I'm able to think about?
Yes, it's a game. No, it's not all I think about or am concerned about. Yes, I do happen to think balance is a good thing for everquest. Does that mean that's all I spend my time thinking about? Not at all, it just happens to be an opinion of mine. I have lots of opinions on many things.
This is a message board FOR everquest. That means the vast majority of things written on it are going to be concerning everquest. That doesn't mean it's all the posters think about in life, it just means they like to stay on topic(most of the time
). As far as how this affects other players, you might want to read some of the previous posts. They've already stated better than I just how it affects others.
Edited, Mon Apr 5 14:48:41 2004 by danreynolds
Quote:
Naero wrote: Considering that most of the people who are getting temp are alts of higher players, this argument is silly. Newbies are broke, and a level 1 'true newbie' isn't going to go to PoK asking for temp - they probably have no idea what temp is
This actually is a pretty big assumption, of which I only wish were true. How many times have we seen posted on the boards "I'm just starting EQ and my friends/brother/etc gave me 30K. What equipment should I get?" It's a very sad fact that many newbies are being gifted cash and equipment from friends, or purchasing it from resellers like Yantis. If large amounts of cash were not immidiately available for anyone who wants it we wouldn't be having this discussion. People are willing to pay good sums of money for the Temp buff, hence there is a market that is willing AND able to pay the price. Being absolutely new to the game doesn't necessarily mean you're dirt poor anymore.
I think the suggestion that you have to be at least light blue to the spell level for a beneficial spell to work on you is reasonable. I'm kind of surprised that Temperance works on low levels when KEI doesn't. It's not a big deal to me though and if it is low on SOE's list of things to do that is okay with me. If some low levels are lucky enough to get a temperance and go powerlevel with it it doesn't hurt me. I don't really think they are going to get to be 30+ and not know how to pull or play their class just because they were invulnerable at 5 with temperance. They'll stop being invulnerable before level 30 for sure.
Im gonna add a little of my 2 CP in
Nerf bat on temp granted a twinked lvl 1 tank regardless can get close to 1k of HP based on gear(twinking) to me any benefical spell that benfits a lvl 1 should be limited to post 25 ( this is were you can get the basics of your class down)
Casters pets really needs to be nerfed ( caster pets can be buffed from a lvl 65 shammy FO7,65 cleric virtue, Haste given by 65 chanter and even given NDT(i think), will equip 65 mage created stuff( but wont proc the weapons) but will benefit from worn haste and casted haste. stick a lvl 1 toon in Upper guk 3 hours later or less walk out a lvl 20.
I think that all buffs should be apporiated to said lvl this is to include pets.
If yall didnt know that then give it a test
A pet casting class has better benefit than a lvl 1 toon does however i do tend to agree that Temp be limited to a lvl of 25 because thats less than half when Virt can stick is what lvl 46? I feel that they dont because it doesnt adhere to potential time sponge for those people that are racing to 65 but to me those people who race to 65 in that manner don't really fully understand the good and bad to any class
Nerf bat on temp granted a twinked lvl 1 tank regardless can get close to 1k of HP based on gear(twinking) to me any benefical spell that benfits a lvl 1 should be limited to post 25 ( this is were you can get the basics of your class down)
Casters pets really needs to be nerfed ( caster pets can be buffed from a lvl 65 shammy FO7,65 cleric virtue, Haste given by 65 chanter and even given NDT(i think), will equip 65 mage created stuff( but wont proc the weapons) but will benefit from worn haste and casted haste. stick a lvl 1 toon in Upper guk 3 hours later or less walk out a lvl 20.
I think that all buffs should be apporiated to said lvl this is to include pets.
If yall didnt know that then give it a test
A pet casting class has better benefit than a lvl 1 toon does however i do tend to agree that Temp be limited to a lvl of 25 because thats less than half when Virt can stick is what lvl 46? I feel that they dont because it doesnt adhere to potential time sponge for those people that are racing to 65 but to me those people who race to 65 in that manner don't really fully understand the good and bad to any class
35 posts
Quote:
Are you saying because I'd like everquest to be balanced that I can't be concerned about other things in life?]
No I never said that. I merely pointed out the fact that what you are complaining about is trivial.
Quote:
This is a message board FOR everquest.
Uh, Yah...
If a level one wants a temp how does that affect you?
It doesn't. It just simply doesn't.
So I ask, yet again..... WHY do you care?
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Yes, I do happen to think balance is a good thing for everquest.
Ok, that is great. Define balance.
The problem with balance is everyone has their own opinion of what it is. So let people work it out, don't encourage SOE to nerf things.
If you don't like it, don't participate in it. It's a game, let everyone play it how they wish.
Naero
Edited, Tue Apr 6 01:26:44 2004 by naero
When you have a player with fifty times more hit points than the mobs he's killing, with probably the same ratio of AC, I'd call that a bit unbalanced.
Imagine Plane of Nightmare mobs having 100HP....
But then that's just me. Some people say I'm a bit "unbalanced" myself
Also, I encourage you once again to read the previous posts in this thread if you're really wondering how twinked players affect all of us. It's been explained quite well already.
Imagine Plane of Nightmare mobs having 100HP....
But then that's just me. Some people say I'm a bit "unbalanced" myself
Also, I encourage you once again to read the previous posts in this thread if you're really wondering how twinked players affect all of us. It's been explained quite well already.
I don't think Temp should be nerf. Like alot of you pointed out a newbie doesn't know what temp is any way let alone can afford it, unless a high lvl cleric passing by take petty on him or her and cast it on them. Ya I get pisst off when I see a lvl 5 warrior or any charactor running around in newbie garden with armor or gear higher than my 60 lvl charactor. Really mad my blood boil when I was in DL getting rdy too log one of my alts out, and was talking with one of those SUPER TWEAKERS. Made the remark that I most be poor because of my equipment. Well I just can't see the fun in spending 50k or more per item soo you can lvl whith ease with a low lvl charactor. Ya I can doo like many and two box my charactors to power lvl them, but heck I minus well play a reg(role playing game) instead of a MULTI PLAYER ROPLEING GAME! I think when Verant steps in and nerfs crap it just hurts the player like me and others that play for FUN. Heck I just play EQ mostly for the eye candy and to group with other peps =P. I think most peps have at less one or two 60 pluss charactors anymore. I been playing this game for a long time now one thing about EQ it's consistently changing eather you change with it or stop playing. I personally love those ones that tell the group about there 65 lvl charactors, like no one else has high lvl alts. We all group with those peps that loves to tell everyone how they should play there charactor. Ya those normally the ones in group with you getting there *** hand to them because they just bought a 200k two hand sword from the Bazaar with a skill lvl of 45 in two hand lol=(. But personally I really don't care. If you whant too spend your plats on Temp and other high lvl buffs to lvl easy hay do it. I really belive it shouldn't be any cap on buff spells. The Cap is really there to stop peps that exploit the game anyway if the truth be known. All buffs have a time limit! We all group with those peps that time you get a good camp spot, they are ready to run back to POK to get Kei or Temp because they can't play with out it. And everyone dies while they wate for them too get back because you where short handed when the camp site started to repop=(.Whats wrong with Clarity or Heroic Bond from your present group members?=( Everyone getting dependent on super buffs any way, it shows because no one groups anymore under 20lvl anymore. Partly because you don't start loseing exp until lvl 10 anyway! WHATS UP WITH THAT? So put away the nerf bat=P[/Black][Black][Black][/Black]
35 posts
Quote:
When you have a player with fifty times more hit points than the mobs he's killing, with probably the same ratio of AC, I'd call that a bit unbalanced.
Yah but why do you care?
Quote:
Imagine Plane of Nightmare mobs having 100HP....
Ummm yah ok... how is this relevant?
Quote:
Also, I encourage you once again to read the previous posts in this thread if you're really wondering how twinked players affect all of us. It's been explained quite well already.
I read all the posts. But I'm asking you why you care? Why can't you answer that? I've asked you what, 4 times now?
Quote:
I am pretty sure that a charicter who knows enough to get temp at lvl 2 has a high chance of knowing everything thier is to know about being lvl 2-5 it's not exactly the defining period for a class.
Couldn't say it better myself tarv )
Naero
8 posts
I do think that Temp should be nerfed just like KEI was. Yes, I whine about KEI all the time (35 druid here), but it was a total unfair advantage when I was a level 25. I couldn't cast spells fast enough to knock my mana down! I do wish it was a little more even, clarity lasts what, a half hour? KEI is what, 3, 4 hours? That is what gets me so annoyed, by the time I get to where I'm going and the group buffed, my clarity is fading.
And as for how Temp affects me, well, when a character is new (newbie or alt or whatever) they are still learning how that race/class works. Even if it is an alt, they are not going to be completely familiar with the combo, and will have to spend some time learning how to play it correctly. No tank or puller can learn how to properly play their character when they don't have to worry about damage to themselves, they can pull/aggro 10 mobs at once and not care. Try that without temp and they'll get themselves and their entire group killed! I often play a healer or backup healer, and that can make my life miserable, especially if the mob turns on me or other members that don't have Temp. Of course, then the tank/puller turns on me and blames me for not healing fast enough... I can only cast so fast, for so many points, its not my fault he doesn't know how to properly pull because he never had to learn how!
And as for how Temp affects me, well, when a character is new (newbie or alt or whatever) they are still learning how that race/class works. Even if it is an alt, they are not going to be completely familiar with the combo, and will have to spend some time learning how to play it correctly. No tank or puller can learn how to properly play their character when they don't have to worry about damage to themselves, they can pull/aggro 10 mobs at once and not care. Try that without temp and they'll get themselves and their entire group killed! I often play a healer or backup healer, and that can make my life miserable, especially if the mob turns on me or other members that don't have Temp. Of course, then the tank/puller turns on me and blames me for not healing fast enough... I can only cast so fast, for so many points, its not my fault he doesn't know how to properly pull because he never had to learn how!
Okay, I'm going to do my best to S P E L L things out for you so that you don't have to use that grey matter between your ears here naero....
Why do I care whether someone gets themselves twinked to the point that there's no possibility of mobs doing anything to hurt them at low levels? Because that allows them to progress through the game without learning this little thing called STRATEGY.
It allows people grouped with them(in fact it prevents people grouped with them) from learning how to properly play thier class at low levels.
Eventually these people who have never had to do anything more than walk up to a mob and click the auto attack button on get to a level where they start grouping with me. In a majority of cases, these people who have been twinked from day one have little or no clue how to play thier class in a group setting, as the game so far to them has been "point and click".
Groups that take in these players tend to encounter many problems, including but not limited to, multiple deaths, frustrated players because they have to do more than should be required of them to make up for those who don't understand thier role, upset group members, and premature breakup of the group due to constant bickering. Especially the way the game is set up today, a group breaking up early can have some pretty negative consequences. Those make my gaming experience a lot less fun, so I tend to look on those players who haven't had to learn thier class properly with something less than utter joy.
I won't even go into the problems you face if you end up in the same guild9and thus eventually a raid experience) with someone who has never had to learn how to play thier class.
If PoN mobs had 100HP it would be the SAME situation that you have now at low levels with temp, only at a higher level. The game would be reduced to: 1. Target the mob 2. Turn on auto attack 3. watch the mob drop in 1-2 hits with no risk to you. It would make learning and implementing strategy pointless, which is the situation you have now with low level players running around with 1K+ HP.
The purpose of me telling you repeatedly to read the previous posts is that the arguments and reasoning I've just put forward have ALREADY been explained. Several times at least.
As for Tarv's comment. Six months ago, I would have agreed with him. But now the way the game is, new players know to get temp and sow almost before they know how to equip thier sword.
And after all that, I'm STILL going to put a smiley in here
Edited because my spelling sucks sometimes
Edited, Tue Apr 6 03:10:46 2004 by danreynolds
Why do I care whether someone gets themselves twinked to the point that there's no possibility of mobs doing anything to hurt them at low levels? Because that allows them to progress through the game without learning this little thing called STRATEGY.
It allows people grouped with them(in fact it prevents people grouped with them) from learning how to properly play thier class at low levels.
Eventually these people who have never had to do anything more than walk up to a mob and click the auto attack button on get to a level where they start grouping with me. In a majority of cases, these people who have been twinked from day one have little or no clue how to play thier class in a group setting, as the game so far to them has been "point and click".
Groups that take in these players tend to encounter many problems, including but not limited to, multiple deaths, frustrated players because they have to do more than should be required of them to make up for those who don't understand thier role, upset group members, and premature breakup of the group due to constant bickering. Especially the way the game is set up today, a group breaking up early can have some pretty negative consequences. Those make my gaming experience a lot less fun, so I tend to look on those players who haven't had to learn thier class properly with something less than utter joy.
I won't even go into the problems you face if you end up in the same guild9and thus eventually a raid experience) with someone who has never had to learn how to play thier class.
If PoN mobs had 100HP it would be the SAME situation that you have now at low levels with temp, only at a higher level. The game would be reduced to: 1. Target the mob 2. Turn on auto attack 3. watch the mob drop in 1-2 hits with no risk to you. It would make learning and implementing strategy pointless, which is the situation you have now with low level players running around with 1K+ HP.
The purpose of me telling you repeatedly to read the previous posts is that the arguments and reasoning I've just put forward have ALREADY been explained. Several times at least.
As for Tarv's comment. Six months ago, I would have agreed with him. But now the way the game is, new players know to get temp and sow almost before they know how to equip thier sword.
And after all that, I'm STILL going to put a smiley in here
Edited because my spelling sucks sometimes
Edited, Tue Apr 6 03:10:46 2004 by danreynolds
Quote:
I read all the posts. But I'm asking you why you care? Why can't you answer that? I've asked you what, 4 times now?
Well your reading comprehension must be radically substandard. Maybe you need an INT buff.
We care because it contributes to generating poor players. We then have to group with these poor players - ergo it affects us.
As for tarv's point about anyone asking for Temp knowing all they need to know already it is (sorry Tarv) not really valid.
You have a 65 enchanter and can afford to twink up your new Berserker. What has being an enchanter taught you about melee? (except how to break mezz)
Temp is far worse than that twinking though. It only costs 11pp and can be had free if you fail to donate (it happens). So instead of needing a high level alt to twink you you need a few pp. Your 25 enchanter can afford to keep that Berserker Temped. At 25 you have learned very little about your own class let alone any other.
And real newbies learn about it very fast when they group with people who have it. Just like people used to shout "lvl 16 Cleric with KEI LFG" you now hear "level 16 SK with Temp LFG"
Wherever I go - there I am.
There is one very significant difference between Temp and the KEI "thing".
Despite popular belief, KEI was *not* nerfed. KEI has always had a level restriction to it, pre-fix, you still could not target someone to cast on them if they were < lvl 45. The way that lower levels got KEI (and Aego, and Virtue) was through a bug in the group buffing code. So long as the person targeted was at the level, the whole group got it. This only worked with group buffs, any single target buff of this level range would still give the "your target is not powerful enough for this spell." This bug was fixed and turned into what many people call the "nerf".
The one thing to remember is that Temp is a level 44 spell. As such, it is coded to land on everyone. (Note: Most, if not all, lvl 51+ spells have a required level to them). This makes quite a bit of difference to KEI (60), BoA (since you couldn't single target aego due to lvl restrictions, 60), and HoV (no single target V either due to lvl restrictions, 65).
Is temp overpowering in lower levels? Yep. I won't argue one bit with that. Should they add a level restriction? Nope. This would go agaist pre-set "business rules" of 50- spells. If I had to suggest a nerf for it, I would suggest raising the level to 51, thus gaining the "innate" level requirement. But the cleric community would be up in arms over this. It's just something we'll all have to live with. If you wish to see this in action, find a ranger and a druid with cholroplast (sp?). The druid's will stick on all levels (since is it <51) and the ranger's will have a restriction (since it's 51+). There used to be one (that I know of) exception to this rule. Boon of Garou formerly had a lvl restriction of 44 (lvl 44 spell), but that has since been removed.
One last tidbit...
The game mechanics do not change between classes. Things such as aggro management, aggro range and frenzy radius, special attacks and defences, will all be things you learn with your first character. This knowledge will be brought over to any alts/twinks you wish to play. This will give you quite a large step-up from anyone just starting the game. Thus, in the example of an enc twinking out a berserker, they will know the most important aspects of the melee class (game mechanics), beyond just "breaking mez". (which, since Ber's aren't tanks, they shouldn't be doing anyway ;-)) The rest they will pick up (even twinked/buffed) as they go along. (Special class duties and such).
Just my late night rambling post....
(edited to flesh it out some more)
Just for some numbers...Temp isn't much different than the same level range of "normal" hp/ac buffs, aside from duration, which indeed is a bit much. (Temp - 800hp/48ac for 550 mana, vs. Resolution/Armor of Faith/Symbol of Naltron - 638-775hp/39-41ac for 635mana). 162hp/9ac at the low end for about 85 less mana is the difference. Also remember that Temp is quested rather than purchased at a vendor, giving it the bit better is justified for doing the quest.
(edited a 2nd time to give actual numbers.)
Edited, Tue Apr 6 03:55:29 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
Edited, Tue Apr 6 04:05:39 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
Despite popular belief, KEI was *not* nerfed. KEI has always had a level restriction to it, pre-fix, you still could not target someone to cast on them if they were < lvl 45. The way that lower levels got KEI (and Aego, and Virtue) was through a bug in the group buffing code. So long as the person targeted was at the level, the whole group got it. This only worked with group buffs, any single target buff of this level range would still give the "your target is not powerful enough for this spell." This bug was fixed and turned into what many people call the "nerf".
The one thing to remember is that Temp is a level 44 spell. As such, it is coded to land on everyone. (Note: Most, if not all, lvl 51+ spells have a required level to them). This makes quite a bit of difference to KEI (60), BoA (since you couldn't single target aego due to lvl restrictions, 60), and HoV (no single target V either due to lvl restrictions, 65).
Is temp overpowering in lower levels? Yep. I won't argue one bit with that. Should they add a level restriction? Nope. This would go agaist pre-set "business rules" of 50- spells. If I had to suggest a nerf for it, I would suggest raising the level to 51, thus gaining the "innate" level requirement. But the cleric community would be up in arms over this. It's just something we'll all have to live with. If you wish to see this in action, find a ranger and a druid with cholroplast (sp?). The druid's will stick on all levels (since is it <51) and the ranger's will have a restriction (since it's 51+). There used to be one (that I know of) exception to this rule. Boon of Garou formerly had a lvl restriction of 44 (lvl 44 spell), but that has since been removed.
One last tidbit...
The game mechanics do not change between classes. Things such as aggro management, aggro range and frenzy radius, special attacks and defences, will all be things you learn with your first character. This knowledge will be brought over to any alts/twinks you wish to play. This will give you quite a large step-up from anyone just starting the game. Thus, in the example of an enc twinking out a berserker, they will know the most important aspects of the melee class (game mechanics), beyond just "breaking mez". (which, since Ber's aren't tanks, they shouldn't be doing anyway ;-)) The rest they will pick up (even twinked/buffed) as they go along. (Special class duties and such).
Just my late night rambling post....
(edited to flesh it out some more)
Just for some numbers...Temp isn't much different than the same level range of "normal" hp/ac buffs, aside from duration, which indeed is a bit much. (Temp - 800hp/48ac for 550 mana, vs. Resolution/Armor of Faith/Symbol of Naltron - 638-775hp/39-41ac for 635mana). 162hp/9ac at the low end for about 85 less mana is the difference. Also remember that Temp is quested rather than purchased at a vendor, giving it the bit better is justified for doing the quest.
(edited a 2nd time to give actual numbers.)
Edited, Tue Apr 6 03:55:29 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
Edited, Tue Apr 6 04:05:39 2004 by cafeenoftheazurestorm
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