Just dinged 61 <Go me> and i picked up my spells for my new level and looked at my upgrade to Sup heal.
Light of Nife: 1125 heal 450 mana 5.oo cast time.
since i have sup hel in basically all my spell sets i was wondering if it was worth the 1 for 1 swap of this spell for sup heal.
The cast time is longer but not hugely so but themana requirement is much larger and i don't often do much more than patch heals with sup heal. Can i take over as backup heal if secondary tank? or is it not powerful enough.
If not, is it wasting mana due to rarely having to patch heal MT <as in the ones with 5k+ hit points> i mainly deal with casters who have taken 1-2 hits before aggro is regained and i just save the cleric having to worry about healing them. I find that sup is more than sufficient for that purpose
Any thoughts would be nice so long at the words 'Back when i started EQ' are in the reply.
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61 Pally heal.Follow
I barely remember using this spell. It isn't powerful enough to back-up heal really, it isn't fast casting enough to patch heal. It didn't take me long to get to 63 once I hit 61...
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3430
Now THIS is the bad boy, in a couple of levels, this will be the spell you use. Check out the cast time on it.
https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=3430
Now THIS is the bad boy, in a couple of levels, this will be the spell you use. Check out the cast time on it.
yeah i have seen it 
i think the reason i am asking on here is the same reason you can't help ... no one remembers using it lol. I asked the guild and thier responce was 'Umm i thought that was a 63 spell' hehe.
i think the reason i am asking on here is the same reason you can't help ... no one remembers using it lol. I asked the guild and thier responce was 'Umm i thought that was a 63 spell' hehe. By the time you have finished pondering using it you will be 63
On the flip side, the level 61 spell (touch of nife) can generally be purchased for less then 1k (usually a lot less if you shop around). I have yet to see the level 63 "fast heal" for less then 5kish. Also, the heal ratio is much worse on the level 63 spell in terms of mana to damage healed.
In both cases, you're pretty much only going to use the spells when patching someone else. Your HoTs are about as fast casting as your level 63 heal (light of nife), and have vastly better damage to mana ratios. Those are what you'll use as drop spells on yourself when tanking. I've found that if I'm soloing, if I can't keep myself alive with a HoT, then I wont win the fight anyway. Mana efficiency is more important in this case.
When patching, you have to look at the whole picture.
Touch of nife: 450 mana, 1125 damage healed, 5 second cast, 2.25 second recast (default gem reset rate btw).
Light of nife: 400 mana, 850 damage healed, 1 second cast, 5 second recast.
So the total casting rate of touch of nife is 7.25 seconds doing 1125 damage for a patch heal rate of 155.2 damage per second, at a cost of .4 mana per damage point healed.
The total casting rate of light of nife is 6 seconds doing 850 damage for a patch heal rate of 141.7 damage per second, at a cost of .47 mana per damage point healed.
Touch of nife is actually better in both mana to damage efficiency *and* sustained damage healed over time. The *only* reason you'd want to use Light of nife (level 63 spell) is if you really really really need to be able to cast it quickly. Honestly, I've found that this situation occurs so rarely that when it does, I just drop my LoH on the target instead.
It's worth getting maybe for those rare situations when you're planning on needing a *lot* of fast patches (raid target with huge DPS for example). But that's really about it IMO.
In both cases, you're pretty much only going to use the spells when patching someone else. Your HoTs are about as fast casting as your level 63 heal (light of nife), and have vastly better damage to mana ratios. Those are what you'll use as drop spells on yourself when tanking. I've found that if I'm soloing, if I can't keep myself alive with a HoT, then I wont win the fight anyway. Mana efficiency is more important in this case.
When patching, you have to look at the whole picture.
Touch of nife: 450 mana, 1125 damage healed, 5 second cast, 2.25 second recast (default gem reset rate btw).
Light of nife: 400 mana, 850 damage healed, 1 second cast, 5 second recast.
So the total casting rate of touch of nife is 7.25 seconds doing 1125 damage for a patch heal rate of 155.2 damage per second, at a cost of .4 mana per damage point healed.
The total casting rate of light of nife is 6 seconds doing 850 damage for a patch heal rate of 141.7 damage per second, at a cost of .47 mana per damage point healed.
Touch of nife is actually better in both mana to damage efficiency *and* sustained damage healed over time. The *only* reason you'd want to use Light of nife (level 63 spell) is if you really really really need to be able to cast it quickly. Honestly, I've found that this situation occurs so rarely that when it does, I just drop my LoH on the target instead.
It's worth getting maybe for those rare situations when you're planning on needing a *lot* of fast patches (raid target with huge DPS for example). But that's really about it IMO.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Gbaji, I pretty much completely disagree with you. The only time I ever use heals over time is when soloing (i.e. hardly ever).
In a group and assuming I am tanking with a complete healer with better heals over time than me (i.e most of the time) the heal I am most likely to use is the fast casting 63 spell. The 61 spell is way too long a cast time for combat healing, and a heal over time will not stack with any other heal over time, is less efficient than Complete Heal, and pretty much a waste of time. I would be better of stunning more and hence taking less damage that way. Stunning is a more useful trick for reducing damage taken than a Pally heal over time.
Doing the whole mana efficiency calculation is irrelevant too, because in the average group, I rarely go below 90 mana, assuming everyone is doing their job well. Only in a bad group, or creative group with unorthodox classes will my mana be stretched (lots of rooting, more of a healer role etc).
So given the assumptions above, what I am most likely to be doing healing wise is ****-hit-the-fan healing, and for that the fast cast of the 63 spell is priceless. I can do it between swings without missing a beat. I can't really think of many combat situations where I would prefer to cast the 61 spell.
In a raid environment, it is even more the case that a patch heal is needed NOW, not in 5 seconds time.
It is my favourite healing spell in my book along with Wave of Marr. Do you even have this spell?
In a group and assuming I am tanking with a complete healer with better heals over time than me (i.e most of the time) the heal I am most likely to use is the fast casting 63 spell. The 61 spell is way too long a cast time for combat healing, and a heal over time will not stack with any other heal over time, is less efficient than Complete Heal, and pretty much a waste of time. I would be better of stunning more and hence taking less damage that way. Stunning is a more useful trick for reducing damage taken than a Pally heal over time.
Doing the whole mana efficiency calculation is irrelevant too, because in the average group, I rarely go below 90 mana, assuming everyone is doing their job well. Only in a bad group, or creative group with unorthodox classes will my mana be stretched (lots of rooting, more of a healer role etc).
So given the assumptions above, what I am most likely to be doing healing wise is ****-hit-the-fan healing, and for that the fast cast of the 63 spell is priceless. I can do it between swings without missing a beat. I can't really think of many combat situations where I would prefer to cast the 61 spell.
In a raid environment, it is even more the case that a patch heal is needed NOW, not in 5 seconds time.
It is my favourite healing spell in my book along with Wave of Marr. Do you even have this spell?
Certainly as a main healer I find many times where "time" is far more important than mana efficiency. Both time in the sense that someone needs a heal now and time in the sense that I need to get off three heals on different people now.
For this reason I keep both Remedy and Divine Light memmed along with CH and HoT. This gives me the opportunity to drop Remedy on for the "must hit now" situation and the option of sticking a bunch of Remedies and Divine Lights on in qucick succession, giving me some breathing space to get back round to CHing and HoTing where it is needed.
Not very mana efficient true, but where you have unruly melees, adds that wont be mezzed or rooted or an AoE going off, there are times wher you have no choice. (AoE heals are OK except that they guarantee to get the Cleric aggro from every mob in the area).
Even with Druid healing, I have brought Chloroblast back into the lineup for the very same reason, as pitiful as it is, in the situation where you must hit someone with a quick heal now it just gives that few seconds breahing space to get things back under control.
I'm no Pally expert, but I would suspect that when things are bad enough to need the Pally to be dropping in a patch heal, time is most likely much more important than mana efficiency.
For this reason I keep both Remedy and Divine Light memmed along with CH and HoT. This gives me the opportunity to drop Remedy on for the "must hit now" situation and the option of sticking a bunch of Remedies and Divine Lights on in qucick succession, giving me some breathing space to get back round to CHing and HoTing where it is needed.
Not very mana efficient true, but where you have unruly melees, adds that wont be mezzed or rooted or an AoE going off, there are times wher you have no choice. (AoE heals are OK except that they guarantee to get the Cleric aggro from every mob in the area).
Even with Druid healing, I have brought Chloroblast back into the lineup for the very same reason, as pitiful as it is, in the situation where you must hit someone with a quick heal now it just gives that few seconds breahing space to get things back under control.
I'm no Pally expert, but I would suspect that when things are bad enough to need the Pally to be dropping in a patch heal, time is most likely much more important than mana efficiency.
Oh, I'm not denying that it's a very useful spell. And I also have it loaded whenever I'm in an "iffy" situation.
Here's my logic on the raid patching though. Usually, the only time a paladin is going to be patching on a raid is during the initial engagement. Once assist is called, you're pretty much just a dps guy (stuns, AEheals, and addcontrol not withstanding). If I'm only dropping one spell, then this is the spell I'm dropping. However, I've found that in most of the raid situations where me patching is even vaguely needed, I'm patching more then once. In that situation, I will heal more damage to the tank during the initial engagement phases using Touch of Nife, then using Light of Nife.
Don't get me wrong. I used to load up LoN instead, with the same thought behind it (it's faster, so it must be better for patching). But I found that I quite often end up casting two patch spells between initial engagement and assist call. It was just something I kinda fell into as I realized that I would patch more in the same time using the older spell. The "fast" cast bit really isn't that big of a deal when it's you and 5 other patch people hitting the tank during that phase. I've never had a MT die before I could get the level 61 spell off, so time really isn't significant from my perspective.
Obviously, you're going to have to use this spell situationally. If I'm hunting with a cleric, I do load it instead of a HoT. If I've got a druid or shaman healing me (happens quite often), then SupCleansing is better IMO. It takes a bit of a different mindset to use then a direct heal though. You don't wait until you *need* a heal to use it. You use it right after a CH lands (or the druid/shammy varient) and it stretches out the time between CH casts (saving the whole group mana at a very small cost to yourself). It's proactive instead of reactive.
Umm... Obviously, if I'm fighting mobs that are fully stun immune, I load up the fast cast heal anyway "just in case". I've yet to see a situation where I couldn't stun the mob long enough for a late CH to land when it's really needed, but if I can't stun, then having another saftey net is nice. It's extremely situational IMO.
I wasn't suggesting not to buy the spell when he hits 63. I'm just suggesting that he should not ignore buying the level 61 spell now. An 1125 heal spell is pretty darn good for a pally whether it takes 5 seconds to cast or not. For someone who's got Sup heal right not, the new one is an upgrade in every way, so it's definately a spell he should get (and it's not that expensive).
My answer is that he should get both and use them where they are most effective.
Here's my logic on the raid patching though. Usually, the only time a paladin is going to be patching on a raid is during the initial engagement. Once assist is called, you're pretty much just a dps guy (stuns, AEheals, and addcontrol not withstanding). If I'm only dropping one spell, then this is the spell I'm dropping. However, I've found that in most of the raid situations where me patching is even vaguely needed, I'm patching more then once. In that situation, I will heal more damage to the tank during the initial engagement phases using Touch of Nife, then using Light of Nife.
Don't get me wrong. I used to load up LoN instead, with the same thought behind it (it's faster, so it must be better for patching). But I found that I quite often end up casting two patch spells between initial engagement and assist call. It was just something I kinda fell into as I realized that I would patch more in the same time using the older spell. The "fast" cast bit really isn't that big of a deal when it's you and 5 other patch people hitting the tank during that phase. I've never had a MT die before I could get the level 61 spell off, so time really isn't significant from my perspective.
Obviously, you're going to have to use this spell situationally. If I'm hunting with a cleric, I do load it instead of a HoT. If I've got a druid or shaman healing me (happens quite often), then SupCleansing is better IMO. It takes a bit of a different mindset to use then a direct heal though. You don't wait until you *need* a heal to use it. You use it right after a CH lands (or the druid/shammy varient) and it stretches out the time between CH casts (saving the whole group mana at a very small cost to yourself). It's proactive instead of reactive.
Umm... Obviously, if I'm fighting mobs that are fully stun immune, I load up the fast cast heal anyway "just in case". I've yet to see a situation where I couldn't stun the mob long enough for a late CH to land when it's really needed, but if I can't stun, then having another saftey net is nice. It's extremely situational IMO.
I wasn't suggesting not to buy the spell when he hits 63. I'm just suggesting that he should not ignore buying the level 61 spell now. An 1125 heal spell is pretty darn good for a pally whether it takes 5 seconds to cast or not. For someone who's got Sup heal right not, the new one is an upgrade in every way, so it's definately a spell he should get (and it's not that expensive).
My answer is that he should get both and use them where they are most effective.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Heh, talking about needing a quick heal...
A couple of times recently I have been in LDoN grous with no real CC and the decision was to just "plow" and tank mez.
As any main healer knows this can become a bit of a nightmare. Inevitably you get a trap going off just when the camp is swarmed with an overpull, anyway I was flat out like a lizard drinking trying to juggle mana, cast times and five shrinking health bars, when I happened to glace up at my own health bar to see it at 10% and fading.
Thank the Lady Tunare for fast Paladin heals is all I can say.
I had taken a bit of a beating from some of the adds while they were being subdued and had then picked up one of those really nasty poison DoTs without noticing, another few seconds and it would have been all she wrote, lol.
A couple of times recently I have been in LDoN grous with no real CC and the decision was to just "plow" and tank mez.
As any main healer knows this can become a bit of a nightmare. Inevitably you get a trap going off just when the camp is swarmed with an overpull, anyway I was flat out like a lizard drinking trying to juggle mana, cast times and five shrinking health bars, when I happened to glace up at my own health bar to see it at 10% and fading.
Thank the Lady Tunare for fast Paladin heals is all I can say.
I had taken a bit of a beating from some of the adds while they were being subdued and had then picked up one of those really nasty poison DoTs without noticing, another few seconds and it would have been all she wrote, lol.
Heh. That would qualify as an "iffy situation"... ;)
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Quote:
Heh. That would qualify as an "iffy situation"... ;)
I would argue that the only times a Pally is going to be making a differenece throwing heals around is in "iffy" situations.
Quote:
Here's my logic on the raid patching though. Usually, the only time a paladin is going to be patching on a raid is during the initial engagement.
You never been in a raid when someone tells raid "CLERIC X NEEDS HEAL NOW!"?
Edited, Tue Mar 30 03:22:36 2004 by Patrician
What Patrician fails to also tell you is that sometimes .. pallies are saved on raids by a 420pt heal from the ranger 
Pallies can save raids with fast and powerful heals. A great hybrid they are when all the clerics and druids are too busy to quickly patch someone. Fast heals should be used though, a cleric taking rampage from a 2k hitting dragon will not last 5 seconds
But my poor Patrician, the truth is still that Rangers > Pallies
Edited, Tue Mar 30 07:09:36 2004 by JennockFV
Pallies can save raids with fast and powerful heals. A great hybrid they are when all the clerics and druids are too busy to quickly patch someone. Fast heals should be used though, a cleric taking rampage from a 2k hitting dragon will not last 5 seconds
But my poor Patrician, the truth is still that Rangers > Pallies
Edited, Tue Mar 30 07:09:36 2004 by JennockFV
Patrician wrote:
You never been in a raid when someone tells raid "CLERIC X NEEDS HEAL NOW!"?
Sure. Once in a blue moon. It's very rarely on a raid when our clerics are taking damage (except from AE damage, and usually you can avoid that). If a cleric is taking damage on a raid, then someone screwed up (or you're using a bad strat). Sure. It happens, but that's why I have LoH.
Seriously. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've needed to cast a fast heal on a cleric during a raid. Now, chanters and shammies are a completely different story... ;)
I'm not at all saying not to get the level 63 spell. I am saying that you should not "skip" the level 61 spell. They are two different types of heals and they are used in two different situations. Buying just one or the other will limit your capabilities as a paladin.
And Jenock: thfffttppt ;)
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Don't be such a literal **** Gbaji. Insert any class and substitute for cleric.
I'm not saying skip the 61 spell either, I am saying that you will use the 63 spell a lot more than the 61 spell once you get it.
Quote:
I'm not at all saying not to get the level 63 spell. I am saying that you should not "skip" the level 61 spell. They are two different types of heals and they are used in two different situations. Buying just one or the other will limit your capabilities as a paladin.
I'm not saying skip the 61 spell either, I am saying that you will use the 63 spell a lot more than the 61 spell once you get it.
Quote:
Don't be such a literal **** Gbaji.
*grin* Patrician, aren't you also one of them who takes most of the answers here literally and corrects, if not 100% precise?
else you should have phrased your sentence "Cleric needs a heal now" different in the first place. or?
but YOU retorting to a word like "****"...tz tz tz...
however though, it's fun to see the two of you arguing
Still a noob. :-P
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Quote:
*grin* Patrician, aren't you also one of them who takes most of the answers here literally and corrects, if not 100% precise?
Give me an example. I am pretty sure I correct people when they are completely or mostly wrong, and that my own opinions tend to be generalised and NOT precise.
Quote:
Give me an example. I am pretty sure I correct people when they are completely or mostly wrong, and that my own opinions tend to be generalised and NOT precise.
http://www.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=1077130012759495058#1077192269434906400
I wrote:
but hey. as I know now, that it'll only make a difference after lvl 50, I prolly won't bother with skill ups for 2 handers... by then EQ 2 is out... hopefully...
you then replied:
Besides, he is not saying that 1H is necessarily better than 2H before 50. Just that there is little bonus to 2H weapons before 50. A 1H weapon compared to a 2H weapon with the same ratio will do the same amount of damage. Into the 50s the 2H weapon will start outdamaging the 1H weapon even though they have the same ratio.
what I also could have written: ok, so as a rule of thumb: after hitting 50 two handers are generally better.
well, in my opinion your answer was in this situation (apart from you always being extremely helpful!) a bit like a teachers ;)
I am just back from lunch break, went for a ride with a coworker (both of us drove down with our bikes to the river elbe) to a beach, where we enjoyed the sun for nearly an hour(luvely day here in hamburg!). big smile on my face.
life is beautiful 
I hope you are all in a great mood to! PS: could well be the case, that I am mistaken, Patrician :-) then my apologies.
Still a noob. :-P
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Hehe, that was just being helpful, gimme a break.
Edited, Wed Mar 31 07:35:46 2004 by Patrician
Edited, Wed Mar 31 07:35:46 2004 by Patrician
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