Let me preface this by saying the following:
I have only done a few LDoN's. I have never done one that was rated as difficult, just easy and normal. The highest level character I've taken into them was lvl 40.
Having said that...anyone else out there from the days of Beta and slightly beyond think there is a fundamental difference between those "trained up" in LDoN and those who are used to the difficulties of "classic" dungeons?
I am consistently surprised at the difference, and the virtual lack, of tactics from the newer players. They just haven't died enough to respect death, and there are way too many clicky-clerics (granted I hope to be one someday) out there making it easy on people.
Clerics who go afk in Karnors -- during the fight. Mages who tank. A lvl 40 enchanter who "found the idea of mez confusing and never bought the spells" !!! There are people playing characters between levels 25 and 40 (dunno about the higher ups) who are quite frankly dumber than paste and the proliferation of them just scares me.
Remember how it used to be? If you got powerleveled, your skills sucked unless you trained them up later (chaincasting, many wacking of blue mobs, etc), and you didn't really have a good idea for the increasing difficulties of dungeons. If you got pl'd through "Hell" levels or major developmental levels (used to be you saw a major change in the game between lvls 17 - 24 and lvls 40 - 45, etc), you were even worse.
Well now we have an entire generation of EQ'ers... being effectively twinked and powerleveled by the game itself. People don't know how to survive if their Temp and Clarity drop. They cannot function with a weapon that has worse than a 17/25 ratio. And they cannot function in a dungeon where the mobs are not as polite as they are in LDoN (My experience is that you have to be sloppy to overpull inside those dungeons). It's just bad. I grouped with a tank who couldn't even tell me how many hps he HAD without Temp (he hadn't been without it for so long...)
Don't get me wrong. I *love* instanced zones. I love knowing if we die in a train it's our fault. I love knowing all the mobs are ours with no ks'ing. I love nifty augmentation drops. But I *don't* like that the dungeons are so predictable. I watched my husband's lvl 60 enchanter in a group in the EC adventure. It looked *exactly* like my group in there (I was lvl 25 at the time) except for the knowledge that his mobs and players were much higher level....and I watched a tank in that lvl 55+ group break mez. Twice. Because he didn't understand the concept. I remember when you almost couldn't GET to lvl 55 without knowing that fundamental bit of data...
Changed for the worse it did. I miss my old EQ.
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LDoN vs. ClassicFollow
*Insert snazzy catchphrase here*
You raise an interesting point, in that I agree that LDON is a lot different than "classic" EQ and that there are a whole lot of people who have done most of their leveling through LDON.
I am not sure I agree with point though about comparing LDON exp to Power leveling in terms of not learning to play your character. First off, anyone who does LDON has to be in a group and learn to group skills to be successful - You could camp a single mob to be power leveled in the old game and never have to group.
If you think about it, you cant do LDON until level 20 and assuming you started doing only LDON at this point, I would think you would have to do close to 100 LDONs to get mid to high 40s. That is an alot of groups not to learn anything.
My main is 90 and 7 in LDONs (Level 51) and I generally have not seen the problems you mentioned from those who have done a lot of LDONs - I did occasionally see them in 40s groups but almost always from people who had just gotten LDON or were trying it for the first time. These people tend to make the same newbie mistakes we all did when LDON first came out, breaking mezs, hitting chests, not using assists, fearing mobs.
I think a better point is that LDON allows people to level much quicker than classic and also that these people may not function as well in small groups elsewhere or soloing where LDON tactics dont work. I would also say that some people only do LDON and so like the Skels in BB now, this opens up room for the rest of us to play other zones without endless waits for camps or mobs. Heck, last week I was the only person up in Rathe Mountains one night, when was the last time that happened?
I enjoy LDON and also like that it forces people to group more than before expansion came out. Like a lot of things, the good old days were not as good as some people tend to remember LOL.
I am not sure I agree with point though about comparing LDON exp to Power leveling in terms of not learning to play your character. First off, anyone who does LDON has to be in a group and learn to group skills to be successful - You could camp a single mob to be power leveled in the old game and never have to group.
If you think about it, you cant do LDON until level 20 and assuming you started doing only LDON at this point, I would think you would have to do close to 100 LDONs to get mid to high 40s. That is an alot of groups not to learn anything.
My main is 90 and 7 in LDONs (Level 51) and I generally have not seen the problems you mentioned from those who have done a lot of LDONs - I did occasionally see them in 40s groups but almost always from people who had just gotten LDON or were trying it for the first time. These people tend to make the same newbie mistakes we all did when LDON first came out, breaking mezs, hitting chests, not using assists, fearing mobs.
I think a better point is that LDON allows people to level much quicker than classic and also that these people may not function as well in small groups elsewhere or soloing where LDON tactics dont work. I would also say that some people only do LDON and so like the Skels in BB now, this opens up room for the rest of us to play other zones without endless waits for camps or mobs. Heck, last week I was the only person up in Rathe Mountains one night, when was the last time that happened?
I enjoy LDON and also like that it forces people to group more than before expansion came out. Like a lot of things, the good old days were not as good as some people tend to remember LOL.
If they weren't levelling in LDoN, they'd have done so in OT, DL, PC, DSP, etc and not have a fifth of the dungeon skills they do now, anyway. So you should count your blessings 
Really, most dungeons are trivial with lull these days. Main difference being that, back when I started, lull was horribly broken and never used as a pulling technique*. These days, you just grab a bard, paladin, cleric or chanter (or a monk for FD pulls) and everyone else sits around, enjoying the single pulls. Doesn't matter if it's some Mistmoore instance, SolA, Sebilis, Befallen or whatever, it's all pretty much the same.
*Ok.. so some people used the Lull line to aggro mobs to pull them, but that doesn't count
Really, most dungeons are trivial with lull these days. Main difference being that, back when I started, lull was horribly broken and never used as a pulling technique*. These days, you just grab a bard, paladin, cleric or chanter (or a monk for FD pulls) and everyone else sits around, enjoying the single pulls. Doesn't matter if it's some Mistmoore instance, SolA, Sebilis, Befallen or whatever, it's all pretty much the same.
*Ok.. so some people used the Lull line to aggro mobs to pull them, but that doesn't count
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
The lull classes, you forgot a few. Druids, Rangers and monks all can lull as well, although monks is only single target, it's non-resistable and you get the FD on top.
Yah, I have run into quite a few people in the lvl 65 dungeons that don't know some basic concepts. It's really sad having to teach lvl 65 people how to play their class (when they either ask, or do things bad enough to endanger the group).
Yah, I have run into quite a few people in the lvl 65 dungeons that don't know some basic concepts. It's really sad having to teach lvl 65 people how to play their class (when they either ask, or do things bad enough to endanger the group).
Well, druid and rangers don't get indoor lulls (that I know of), so I didn't include them in a discussion on dungeons. Yeah, I know, you have places like Unrest or Karnor's, but whatever. I also didn't list necros and SKs as potential FD pullers. 
Point was just that, provided the lull puller isn't a moron, most dungeons aren't any harder than LDoN's anyway.
Point was just that, provided the lull puller isn't a moron, most dungeons aren't any harder than LDoN's anyway.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
For all of my ranting about the good old days, I like the LDON premise. One of the really bad aspects of the game in the old days was getting a full group together and then being unable to find an uncamped spot.
The instanced zone is a great concept. It is also great experience if used properly. I have gone on long rants about this elsewhere so I will keep it short...but if the game were played with the old-school attitude (this is an epic game that is more about developing a character than leveling a character...including friendships, group skills, etc) then the LDON concept is great.
I do have to agree with you that these people are being trained wrong and many are hard to group with. Not all of them though. I do LDON because they are fun with the right group...and because if i want my 49 group temp spell, i have to. hehe.
I just try to find friends that think the way I do. I found a guild of old timers and group with their alts (I deleted my high levels...hehe I say high level...my warrior had maxed at 50 when I left the game and deleted him. had I known the direction they were going I'd have kept him). I still play like the old days. I like exploring and if I cannot find others to go with me, that is OK.
The instanced zone is a great concept. It is also great experience if used properly. I have gone on long rants about this elsewhere so I will keep it short...but if the game were played with the old-school attitude (this is an epic game that is more about developing a character than leveling a character...including friendships, group skills, etc) then the LDON concept is great.
I do have to agree with you that these people are being trained wrong and many are hard to group with. Not all of them though. I do LDON because they are fun with the right group...and because if i want my 49 group temp spell, i have to. hehe.
I just try to find friends that think the way I do. I found a guild of old timers and group with their alts (I deleted my high levels...hehe I say high level...my warrior had maxed at 50 when I left the game and deleted him. had I known the direction they were going I'd have kept him). I still play like the old days. I like exploring and if I cannot find others to go with me, that is OK.
Did a LDoN today with a 34 Ranger. After a few mobs ran off, I asked him to "please snare", his reply:
"Oh yeah, sorry forgot to even mem that spell."
I just stared at my screen and shook my head slowly. And he still didn't snare after he'd mem'd it.
I'm seeing more and more people these days relying on their gear, especially in the lower levels, instead of learning basic grouping skills. Unfortunately they are continuing to rely on gear at higher levels as well and getting themselves and others killed.
I'm unguilded at the moment and joining a lot of pickup groups and meeting a lot of strangers, who seem to just not have a cluewhat they are doing, as part of a group.
LDoN seem to be the worst.
"Oh yeah, sorry forgot to even mem that spell."
I just stared at my screen and shook my head slowly. And he still didn't snare after he'd mem'd it.
I'm seeing more and more people these days relying on their gear, especially in the lower levels, instead of learning basic grouping skills. Unfortunately they are continuing to rely on gear at higher levels as well and getting themselves and others killed.
I'm unguilded at the moment and joining a lot of pickup groups and meeting a lot of strangers, who seem to just not have a cluewhat they are doing, as part of a group.
LDoN seem to be the worst.
I don't seem to be able to get past feeling that LDoN is a game within a game. I did quite a few when they first came out, but I got shafted once too often and haven't done any in a while.
To be honest I have not yet got to the grips of exactly where it fits into the whole EQ progression.. that said im a couple of adventures short of a nice pair of legs so I'll probably do another couple soon.
But thinking about it, that is the problem ... its like too fixed you really ddon't have to quest or achieve anything .. heck even a poor player can probably tag along and get enough APs to get himself some decent armour. That is not a problem in itself, but you can do that without ever seeing anything beyond LDoN.
Somewhere along the line, I have to admit, it doesn't quite sit right with me.
../shrug just one of those things
To be honest I have not yet got to the grips of exactly where it fits into the whole EQ progression.. that said im a couple of adventures short of a nice pair of legs so I'll probably do another couple soon.
But thinking about it, that is the problem ... its like too fixed you really ddon't have to quest or achieve anything .. heck even a poor player can probably tag along and get enough APs to get himself some decent armour. That is not a problem in itself, but you can do that without ever seeing anything beyond LDoN.
Somewhere along the line, I have to admit, it doesn't quite sit right with me.
../shrug just one of those things
9. ..... You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction)any Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.
"Ahhh, the good ole days..." We all know the one thing about good ole days, we don't tend to remember them the way the were so much as the way we wanted them. I remember hunting with people in DL and Karnor's that still didn't know their classes for squat, including rangers that snared too early (or not at all), warriors that switched targets all willy-nilly, clerics that depended on their big heals too much and people breaking mez ALL the time. We don't tend to remember it as much though, because it was the GOOD ole days. You talk of hell levels like you enjoyed them or even got anything useful out of them. There was nothing useful out of being stuck at a level over twice as long as you were going to be in the next level, and NO ONE enjoyed it. I think one of the reasons we notice people's downfalls now is the fact that we are grouping so much more and pickup groups are much quicker. I'm sure you remember running all over east and west commons "Level 10 warrior LFG", "Hey, you guys got room for a warrior? No? Ok, thanks" Now you can usually pick up a group pretty quick, regardless of class. I'm not saying everyone is necesarrily beter off with LDoN, but it does help with dungeon tactics to a high degree (except pulling, which can change considerably higher up depending on your targets when pulling teams can be more efficient then single pullers, sometimes). Overall, I say it's good, except the fact it has made some pretty good zones way underutilized. Some would consider that good of course (like my bard and necro) but others would disagree (like my ranger). Anyway, there's good and bad, but when reminiscing, don't only focus on the pasts good.
7 posts
Just my $0.02
I left EQ for about 3 years didnt follow it all really. Abouth a month and a half ago I bought EQ Evolutions and a few weeks ago LDoN.
Its amazing the changes EQ has been through most good but some bad. At first the concept of LDoN seemed to be contrary to the whole MoMRPG theory. Wheres the massive multiplayer if you only have to deal with 6 people in the zone etc..
It is massively differnt than classic EQ some good some bad. I love the not having to worry about a respawn pop where you are sitting and having a clear path to the zone exit.
On the other hand I think it really hurts some players skills. People dont know how to safely take a train to the zone. Back around velious days everyone had a hotkey for trains to warn the zone that a train was coming through so they could be clear of the area. Now I see a ton of trains with no warnings come through zones.
The big thing about LDoN though is players can spend their entire EQ existance in LDoN adventures make great money, good xp, and get gear that makes the old stuff look like junk without ever having to learn to share a zone with any other group or have common courtosey towards other groups.
Now people dont do it, why should they after all they when everything they could ever want in a zone is right there just for their group.
Now thats not to say I dont like LDoN. Personally I like it love the gear just saying the attitudes of people seems to have changed because of it. You dont have any groups who wait for a spot in a dungeon to open up unless its for an epic quest. No standing around socializng etc..
Mr.Fixitx
I left EQ for about 3 years didnt follow it all really. Abouth a month and a half ago I bought EQ Evolutions and a few weeks ago LDoN.
Its amazing the changes EQ has been through most good but some bad. At first the concept of LDoN seemed to be contrary to the whole MoMRPG theory. Wheres the massive multiplayer if you only have to deal with 6 people in the zone etc..
It is massively differnt than classic EQ some good some bad. I love the not having to worry about a respawn pop where you are sitting and having a clear path to the zone exit.
On the other hand I think it really hurts some players skills. People dont know how to safely take a train to the zone. Back around velious days everyone had a hotkey for trains to warn the zone that a train was coming through so they could be clear of the area. Now I see a ton of trains with no warnings come through zones.
The big thing about LDoN though is players can spend their entire EQ existance in LDoN adventures make great money, good xp, and get gear that makes the old stuff look like junk without ever having to learn to share a zone with any other group or have common courtosey towards other groups.
Now people dont do it, why should they after all they when everything they could ever want in a zone is right there just for their group.
Now thats not to say I dont like LDoN. Personally I like it love the gear just saying the attitudes of people seems to have changed because of it. You dont have any groups who wait for a spot in a dungeon to open up unless its for an epic quest. No standing around socializng etc..
Mr.Fixitx
Would like to throw in a new player's PoV.
I can't comment on "classic EQ" since I've only been playing for three months, and that was with LDoN on down (have GoD now too).
But I would like to comment on this. It seems like like to me most posters of this thread have the misconception of anyone can walk into BB, EF, NRO or whereever and and be instantly picked up for a group. Maybe on your servers, but on Saryrn, that is a dream.
I love doing LDoN adventures...if for nothing else that everyone seems to have forgotten where to go. As someone once posted on another thread, it's worthless if it's not on the path to uberness. My guild is useless in that aspect as well because they all are high end toons going on Planes raids. And it'll prolly take a miracle to get anyone in my guild in groupable range to go anywhere else. It's like pulling teeth just to find people to go to dreadlands.
But back on topic, I have come to find my solace in LDoN adventures. And over the course of doing them, as well as just leveling up in general, I have come to understand and work with the fact my 38 Ikky Monk is a side man. I just sit back, wait for the MP to bring the target, /assist, and if a chanter says mez, i stay away from the target until MT agros. Then again, I also take pride in knowing I do way more damage than any tank I've grouped with so far.
If anyone ever cares to take this boy for some old-skool education, send a tell to Shukenja or Omnioni on the saryrn server...I would love to go to these places no one visits anymore.
I can't comment on "classic EQ" since I've only been playing for three months, and that was with LDoN on down (have GoD now too).
But I would like to comment on this. It seems like like to me most posters of this thread have the misconception of anyone can walk into BB, EF, NRO or whereever and and be instantly picked up for a group. Maybe on your servers, but on Saryrn, that is a dream.
I love doing LDoN adventures...if for nothing else that everyone seems to have forgotten where to go. As someone once posted on another thread, it's worthless if it's not on the path to uberness. My guild is useless in that aspect as well because they all are high end toons going on Planes raids. And it'll prolly take a miracle to get anyone in my guild in groupable range to go anywhere else. It's like pulling teeth just to find people to go to dreadlands.
But back on topic, I have come to find my solace in LDoN adventures. And over the course of doing them, as well as just leveling up in general, I have come to understand and work with the fact my 38 Ikky Monk is a side man. I just sit back, wait for the MP to bring the target, /assist, and if a chanter says mez, i stay away from the target until MT agros. Then again, I also take pride in knowing I do way more damage than any tank I've grouped with so far.
If anyone ever cares to take this boy for some old-skool education, send a tell to Shukenja or Omnioni on the saryrn server...I would love to go to these places no one visits anymore.
I remember a post by Tormentica some three years ago about Karnor's Castle.
The cesspit of EQ I think she called it.
That post would have been perfectly at home here in this thread today.
The things you are talking about are not LDoN issues, they are problems true, but reflect other issues within the game not LDoN.
By the way, LDoN for all its shortcomings is no different to any "normal" dungeon, one you learn SolA and figure out how to get to the "bar room" and break it, guess what every time you go back the mobs are standing in the exact same spot and respawn at the exact same time.
And I can introduce you to a couple of rooms in Takish that I defy you to be able to single pull.
The beauty of LDoN is that if the normal "collect or slaughter" has become trivial to you, you can try a harder level, or try an assassination
. An assassination is harder than anything any single group would have ever taken on in one of the "old dungeons".
We did one recently and had to clear mobs that were enraging and flurrying and mezzing and the mob we had to assassinate was a SK with HT and hitting for 400 at a time. I'm not going to say it was a Rumblecrush encounter but it sure as hell wasn't Emporer Crush either.
In fact I would rate LDoN assassinations and rescues on a par with PoP trials.
None of the sort of people you describe would last 10 seconds on this type of LDoN mission.
The cesspit of EQ I think she called it.
That post would have been perfectly at home here in this thread today.
The things you are talking about are not LDoN issues, they are problems true, but reflect other issues within the game not LDoN.
By the way, LDoN for all its shortcomings is no different to any "normal" dungeon, one you learn SolA and figure out how to get to the "bar room" and break it, guess what every time you go back the mobs are standing in the exact same spot and respawn at the exact same time.
And I can introduce you to a couple of rooms in Takish that I defy you to be able to single pull.
The beauty of LDoN is that if the normal "collect or slaughter" has become trivial to you, you can try a harder level, or try an assassination
. An assassination is harder than anything any single group would have ever taken on in one of the "old dungeons". We did one recently and had to clear mobs that were enraging and flurrying and mezzing and the mob we had to assassinate was a SK with HT and hitting for 400 at a time. I'm not going to say it was a Rumblecrush encounter but it sure as hell wasn't Emporer Crush either.
In fact I would rate LDoN assassinations and rescues on a par with PoP trials.
None of the sort of people you describe would last 10 seconds on this type of LDoN mission.
LDoN is the best thing that ever happened to EQ. No other format teaches you to play your class better than a Difficult <and i don't mean setting> LDoN.
The problem is that people only take Low collects and they are trivial even on a hard setting <unless 65>
Some examples of how this is true.
Enchanters have to mez adds.
Pally's learn how to Pac / pull.
People learn to let the puller pull and not stand on his heels
people learn when and how to 'Otm'
clerics and casters learn aggro management
groups learn alternative 'CC' measures like offtanking
The opportunities are greater because the situation is so fluid things are always changing and you have to react to what is going on or your group wipes.
Sure at low levels <pre 50> twinks make life easy but the people i come across who have no idea about what they are doing sure as hell do know something by the time they leave, providing that toys are not thrown out of the pram and people leave.
The problem in 'Classic' dungeons was poeple just used to boot the idiot and get someone else in.
THE OLD WAY OF EQ IS NOT REPEAT NOT BETTER!!
The problem is that people only take Low collects and they are trivial even on a hard setting <unless 65>
Some examples of how this is true.
Enchanters have to mez adds.
Pally's learn how to Pac / pull.
People learn to let the puller pull and not stand on his heels
people learn when and how to 'Otm'
clerics and casters learn aggro management
groups learn alternative 'CC' measures like offtanking
The opportunities are greater because the situation is so fluid things are always changing and you have to react to what is going on or your group wipes.
Sure at low levels <pre 50> twinks make life easy but the people i come across who have no idea about what they are doing sure as hell do know something by the time they leave, providing that toys are not thrown out of the pram and people leave.
The problem in 'Classic' dungeons was poeple just used to boot the idiot and get someone else in.
THE OLD WAY OF EQ IS NOT REPEAT NOT BETTER!!
Yeah, there's all sorts of nasties in the later level assassinations, but in the context of using LDoN to level up from 20-55+, it's kind of a moot point. Agreed with your point about SolA and the Bar Room, though. Really, like I said, if LDoN wasn't around, the same people would be hitting 60+ in outdoor single-pull grind zones anyway, sitting on a zone wall in DSP or Maiden's Eye before moving into the Planes and sitting on a zone wall in PoN or PoD.
Psycho, what's your monk's name? Maybe once the 5th Anniversery stuff is over and you can enter a dungeon without competing with lvl 65's farming Fabled Rawhide Shoulderpads, I'll take you up on that with one of my alts.
While LDoN may not fit into the MMORPG ideal, I think it fits spendidly into the RPG idea. Yes, the time limit is artifical, but no more so than entering the lost Iksar capital of Sebilis and finding out that fifteen other people are in the same lost city and yelling at each other about whose beetle that was to kill. I can just imagine a D&D game where you have your party travel into the depths of the kobold mines, reach the kobold king's throne room and find a group of NPCs who tell them the room is camped and to get lost.
On a side rant, does anyone read the missions you get? Here's my last three missions:
(A) Collect 28 runes from Mistmoore. Someone wants to start a trophy room and needs stuff to fill it with. I wonder if he'll admit to his friends that he didn't actually win the trophies on his own and hired us to get them for him.
(B) Collect 27 marble slivers from the sand elves to make a necklace. Nothing like a little elven genocide in the name of arts & crafts.
(C) Speaking of elven genocide (kill a sand elf and they often say "Leave this place and let us be"), the Brotherhood sent us out to slaughter more elves and collect wooden carvings. Apparently the Brotherhood thinks they're worth decent coin. I wonder if they'd have sent people out West in America to kill the indians and bring back some pottery for the gift shop?
Nice guys, that Wayfarer Brotherhood.
Psycho, what's your monk's name? Maybe once the 5th Anniversery stuff is over and you can enter a dungeon without competing with lvl 65's farming Fabled Rawhide Shoulderpads, I'll take you up on that with one of my alts.
While LDoN may not fit into the MMORPG ideal, I think it fits spendidly into the RPG idea. Yes, the time limit is artifical, but no more so than entering the lost Iksar capital of Sebilis and finding out that fifteen other people are in the same lost city and yelling at each other about whose beetle that was to kill. I can just imagine a D&D game where you have your party travel into the depths of the kobold mines, reach the kobold king's throne room and find a group of NPCs who tell them the room is camped and to get lost.
On a side rant, does anyone read the missions you get? Here's my last three missions:
(A) Collect 28 runes from Mistmoore. Someone wants to start a trophy room and needs stuff to fill it with. I wonder if he'll admit to his friends that he didn't actually win the trophies on his own and hired us to get them for him.
(B) Collect 27 marble slivers from the sand elves to make a necklace. Nothing like a little elven genocide in the name of arts & crafts.
(C) Speaking of elven genocide (kill a sand elf and they often say "Leave this place and let us be"), the Brotherhood sent us out to slaughter more elves and collect wooden carvings. Apparently the Brotherhood thinks they're worth decent coin. I wonder if they'd have sent people out West in America to kill the indians and bring back some pottery for the gift shop?
Nice guys, that Wayfarer Brotherhood.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel, anytime man. I'm almost always LFG.
my two toons are:
38 Iksar Monk, Shukenja Oni
23 Barbarian Berserker, Omnioni Hengeyokai
Both in Ethereal Sisterhood.
Add me to your friends list or just keep a look out. My play time is kinda varied, but either early morn, or late night (EST)
Edited, Fri Mar 26 04:02:36 2004 by psychojester
my two toons are:
38 Iksar Monk, Shukenja Oni
23 Barbarian Berserker, Omnioni Hengeyokai
Both in Ethereal Sisterhood.
Add me to your friends list or just keep a look out. My play time is kinda varied, but either early morn, or late night (EST)
Edited, Fri Mar 26 04:02:36 2004 by psychojester
No offense intended to anyone who does alot of LDoN's but I do not even bother taking my Enchanter through them anymore. I get extremely bored with paci pulling and 95% of the pick-up groups I have been with prefer all singles....which is fine but very boring for me. Old school Enchanter here so I say pull more and let me do my stuff. I also remember when the Lull line was referred to on the Enchanter boards as the "Suicide Spell".
Seeler
Seeler
Quote:
I also remember when the Lull line was referred to on the Enchanter boards as the "Suicide Spell".
Slow i could understand, mezz too is very high aggro, even tash can be a problem every now and then but lull? i must be miss understanding what your meaning.
That's because lull used to have a horrendous resist check. Everybody loved harmony outdoors because it was almost NEVER resisted (my ranger was resisted twice, iirc, in over 50 something levels), but lull... man, it was terrible. I don't have any hard evidence, but I would say it was resisted at least 70 pct of the time. And it always seemed to fail the charisma check too, brining all his buddies. If you had to lull something, everybody puckered up and got ready for a bad pull. They made the change to lull/pacify resists about the same time they added Harmony of Nature. They realized that that awesome low level harmony was a little overpowering and lull/pacify being so bad was contributing to keeping people out of dungeons.
Yeah. What Jiggedy said. I didn't use the line with my paladin for the first 50some levels simply because it was pretty much useless. I think I *attempted* to use it a handful of times with my chanter, and had extremely poor results (like pulling a whole camp instead of just the two or three you might have if you'd just pulled normally).
The problem with the lull line was threefold:
1. Very high resist rate. Also, you didn't necessarily know when it had been resisted (I don't recall ever getting a message one way or another). Also, the "critical resist" was high enough that in conjunction, you pretty much couldn't use it to pull singles from a camp. I remember using it a few times when soloing at low levels with my chanter to split pairs of mobs up, but that's about it.
2. It didn't reduce the agro radius that much. A lot of people *still* don't understand how this line works. It is not a mez effect. It does not prevent mobs from agroing on you. What it does is reduce the radius around a mob that it will react to things (like a friendly mob getting attacked or a KoS person just being there). Today, the range reduction is sufficient that even the low level lulls are usually sufficient to break up a camp if you know how to use them. Back in the day, the low level ones still often left the mobs with large enough agro radiuses to encompass the other mobs in the camp (resulting in chain agro even if you didn't fail to overcome them).
3. Very short duration. They've adjusted this back, but it's still very usable. These spells literally used to last about 2 ticks. So you could maybe cast it on two mobs and if you were *really* fast, pull a third one. Not very stellar for breaking a camp. When they upgraded them they increased the duration (too much really). Suddenly, mobs would be lulled for 3 minutes at a time. They've since pulled it back to about 40 seconds, but that's more then sufficient to break any camp I've ever run into.
If your only experience with the spell line has been in the last year, then you don't really know the history. For a long time, this was a very very very useless spell line.
As to the topic. I don't think that you can compare LDoN to "classic" EQ dungeons directly. They teach different skills. Sure, traveling to an area in a dungeon, breaking that area, and holding that area did (does) require an amount of skill. However, once broken, those camps were *easy* to deal with. Yes. You had to pay attention to repops (which you don't in LDoN), but that was about it.
LDoN, on the other hand, requires that the players essentially constantly "break" the dungeon. You can't just sit in one spot killing the same spawns over and over. Again. Once broken, a classic dungeon is no more difficult then sitting on a zonewall pulling singles. Heck. Do EC/WC in PoV sometime. It's remarkably similar to holding various camps in LGuk back in the day. You kill the mobs in an order, they respawn in that same order. Once broken you can single kill those mobs all day long. In LDoN, you've got to have a method to break spawns (single pull), or handle multiple pulls (CC). It's certainly more energetic then a classic dungeon.
Which is "better"? That's really hard to say. I honestly like the classic style dungeons. Sure, it was quite a bit of effort to get to the camp and break it, but once you did, it was "yours", and you got the benefit of a nice continuous stream of exp and loot. It was less stressful. You could take breaks now and then as needed. While LDoNs are more "exciting", I generally just can't handled more then one or two in a row on a given night, even if we do them in 40ish minutes. It's just too exhausting.
I also still don't like the timers. Everyone still has this "complete mission as fast as possible" goal. Personally, I'd like to just take our time and explore the dungeon. Clear it at our own pace. Investigate the traps and the treasure chests. IMO, that would fullfil the stated desire of the instanced dungeon far more then the timers do.
I'd also like to see a bit more backstory involved. Why just have the instanced dungeons (as someone put it: "A game within a game"). These things just appear and exist purely for going in and killing stuff. Sure, that's nice and all, but it reminds me of the kinds of D&D games back in the day that young folks would run where your group just appeared next to the entrance of the "dungeon", and proceeded inside. No backstory. No reason for them to be there. Nothing. Sure, there's a "mission" the Wayfarers sent you on, but those are paper thin really. Who actually bothers to read them except to see what they are collecting, or how many kills they need, or whatever?
If you can instance dungeons, you can instance much more complex structures then what they do with LDoN. Why not make the whole thing a "short" instanced quest? You're sent in with a vague goal (find and kill MobX, or rescue NPCY, or recover artifactZ). Put in doors and keys in the dungeons, so you have to clear to the right area to get through the next. Don't like doors? Make them quest NPCs (with little instanced "flags" to go with them). You have to find and talk to the orc cook to learn about the secret entrance to the guard barraks (which opens that "door"). Then you must go in there and kill the captain to get his map (which opens up another section of the dungeon). Then you use the map to get to the main fortresss, where a key you maybe had to find off some other orc gets you access. Inside, maybe you can find what you're looking for...
I can think of a zillion ways to make use of instanced zones to really really spruce up the game and make it more immersive for the players. They are really just barely scratching the surface with what they're doing with LDoN. The example above is just a single "mini-adventure" that could be done in similar time to a current LDoN (maybe a bit more time). However, why not have actual "quests" that instance zones for you as you go along? The same process currently used where you turn in bits to get the next part of the quest could instead be used to initiate an instanced zone where the next part of the quest is done. You could make quests of any length use this method. Whichever group is with the quester at the time goes along for this portion of the quest. The "bits" are what's important for triggering the next portion, not a particular group.
I'm still kinda on the fence in terms of how they implemented LDoN. I don't have a problem with the dungeons themselves, I just don't like all the structure surrounding them. The adventure points for rewards stuff is reasonable, but the aug system turns the game into a "Do LDoN or other stuff" situation. So many useful augs are only useable on stuff you have to buy with adventure points. Heck. I'd be ok with it if we could turn in any LDoN reward item for full adventure points. Then at least there could be an upgrade process going on, where you feel like it's worth spending points on stuff that's not the "best", but is worth getting today. My biggest problem is that for the most part, no item slot available in LDoN for less then 1k points is going to be anything but a downgrade. So I *have* to spend that many points before I can make use of any of the really nice augs. That's a whole hell of a lot of time...
And I still think the timers were a bad idea.
The problem with the lull line was threefold:
1. Very high resist rate. Also, you didn't necessarily know when it had been resisted (I don't recall ever getting a message one way or another). Also, the "critical resist" was high enough that in conjunction, you pretty much couldn't use it to pull singles from a camp. I remember using it a few times when soloing at low levels with my chanter to split pairs of mobs up, but that's about it.
2. It didn't reduce the agro radius that much. A lot of people *still* don't understand how this line works. It is not a mez effect. It does not prevent mobs from agroing on you. What it does is reduce the radius around a mob that it will react to things (like a friendly mob getting attacked or a KoS person just being there). Today, the range reduction is sufficient that even the low level lulls are usually sufficient to break up a camp if you know how to use them. Back in the day, the low level ones still often left the mobs with large enough agro radiuses to encompass the other mobs in the camp (resulting in chain agro even if you didn't fail to overcome them).
3. Very short duration. They've adjusted this back, but it's still very usable. These spells literally used to last about 2 ticks. So you could maybe cast it on two mobs and if you were *really* fast, pull a third one. Not very stellar for breaking a camp. When they upgraded them they increased the duration (too much really). Suddenly, mobs would be lulled for 3 minutes at a time. They've since pulled it back to about 40 seconds, but that's more then sufficient to break any camp I've ever run into.
If your only experience with the spell line has been in the last year, then you don't really know the history. For a long time, this was a very very very useless spell line.
As to the topic. I don't think that you can compare LDoN to "classic" EQ dungeons directly. They teach different skills. Sure, traveling to an area in a dungeon, breaking that area, and holding that area did (does) require an amount of skill. However, once broken, those camps were *easy* to deal with. Yes. You had to pay attention to repops (which you don't in LDoN), but that was about it.
LDoN, on the other hand, requires that the players essentially constantly "break" the dungeon. You can't just sit in one spot killing the same spawns over and over. Again. Once broken, a classic dungeon is no more difficult then sitting on a zonewall pulling singles. Heck. Do EC/WC in PoV sometime. It's remarkably similar to holding various camps in LGuk back in the day. You kill the mobs in an order, they respawn in that same order. Once broken you can single kill those mobs all day long. In LDoN, you've got to have a method to break spawns (single pull), or handle multiple pulls (CC). It's certainly more energetic then a classic dungeon.
Which is "better"? That's really hard to say. I honestly like the classic style dungeons. Sure, it was quite a bit of effort to get to the camp and break it, but once you did, it was "yours", and you got the benefit of a nice continuous stream of exp and loot. It was less stressful. You could take breaks now and then as needed. While LDoNs are more "exciting", I generally just can't handled more then one or two in a row on a given night, even if we do them in 40ish minutes. It's just too exhausting.
I also still don't like the timers. Everyone still has this "complete mission as fast as possible" goal. Personally, I'd like to just take our time and explore the dungeon. Clear it at our own pace. Investigate the traps and the treasure chests. IMO, that would fullfil the stated desire of the instanced dungeon far more then the timers do.
I'd also like to see a bit more backstory involved. Why just have the instanced dungeons (as someone put it: "A game within a game"). These things just appear and exist purely for going in and killing stuff. Sure, that's nice and all, but it reminds me of the kinds of D&D games back in the day that young folks would run where your group just appeared next to the entrance of the "dungeon", and proceeded inside. No backstory. No reason for them to be there. Nothing. Sure, there's a "mission" the Wayfarers sent you on, but those are paper thin really. Who actually bothers to read them except to see what they are collecting, or how many kills they need, or whatever?
If you can instance dungeons, you can instance much more complex structures then what they do with LDoN. Why not make the whole thing a "short" instanced quest? You're sent in with a vague goal (find and kill MobX, or rescue NPCY, or recover artifactZ). Put in doors and keys in the dungeons, so you have to clear to the right area to get through the next. Don't like doors? Make them quest NPCs (with little instanced "flags" to go with them). You have to find and talk to the orc cook to learn about the secret entrance to the guard barraks (which opens that "door"). Then you must go in there and kill the captain to get his map (which opens up another section of the dungeon). Then you use the map to get to the main fortresss, where a key you maybe had to find off some other orc gets you access. Inside, maybe you can find what you're looking for...
I can think of a zillion ways to make use of instanced zones to really really spruce up the game and make it more immersive for the players. They are really just barely scratching the surface with what they're doing with LDoN. The example above is just a single "mini-adventure" that could be done in similar time to a current LDoN (maybe a bit more time). However, why not have actual "quests" that instance zones for you as you go along? The same process currently used where you turn in bits to get the next part of the quest could instead be used to initiate an instanced zone where the next part of the quest is done. You could make quests of any length use this method. Whichever group is with the quester at the time goes along for this portion of the quest. The "bits" are what's important for triggering the next portion, not a particular group.
I'm still kinda on the fence in terms of how they implemented LDoN. I don't have a problem with the dungeons themselves, I just don't like all the structure surrounding them. The adventure points for rewards stuff is reasonable, but the aug system turns the game into a "Do LDoN or other stuff" situation. So many useful augs are only useable on stuff you have to buy with adventure points. Heck. I'd be ok with it if we could turn in any LDoN reward item for full adventure points. Then at least there could be an upgrade process going on, where you feel like it's worth spending points on stuff that's not the "best", but is worth getting today. My biggest problem is that for the most part, no item slot available in LDoN for less then 1k points is going to be anything but a downgrade. So I *have* to spend that many points before I can make use of any of the really nice augs. That's a whole hell of a lot of time...
And I still think the timers were a bad idea.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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