Warriors new taunt is godly. I can chain nuke now and not worry about agro. Before I did prefer a pally(nice agro holding from stuns) but man the warrior taunt is just insane. I over nuked a few days ago in PoI(should have concussioned first :( ) so i had a big bad mech runnning at me warrior taunts thing turns around and charges warrior....I've never seen a SK or pally do that.
I'm kinda interested to see if a zerker can hold agro(see im still not sure if they are DPS or tank...I mean i've seen them tank well in a group but I seriously doubt they could keep agro in a raid and I really dont want to test it :P )
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Wizards are great in groupsFollow
7 posts
Some of these are great posts but it seems that some people are trying to hard to justify a Wizzard as "the best DPS".
DPS is not the sole point that people invite someone into their group.
How about an extra tank or a pet to deal with adds. Damage sheilds when used properly add massive DPS as well.
Many of the caster classes can debuff mobs so thats not a unique ablity nor is stun.
Druids for healing+nukes+evac. I know many groups given the choice of a backup healer or a pure nuke class would take the backup healer that can also nuke anyday. At higher levels classes love enchanters, bards or magicians for increased mana regen(KEI, mana song, rod of mystical transvergence).
People just need to accept that groups pick people for what they believe their needs are.
As a magician I wonder why people dont jump on someone who can nuke almost as good as a wizzie at my lvl(38) have a great pet and best DS in the game but some groups dont feel the need for my class or someone elses class.
A lot of time to it comes down to who is available right that second in zone.
As for a 4 or 5 wizzy group having best DPS. Unless its a 60+ group I would debate. That I would beleive magicians would win on that just from 4 or 5 tanks(with DS's)+ near wizzy level nukes. But oh well thats another debate for another time.
MrFixitx
Mr.Fixitx
DPS is not the sole point that people invite someone into their group.
How about an extra tank or a pet to deal with adds. Damage sheilds when used properly add massive DPS as well.
Many of the caster classes can debuff mobs so thats not a unique ablity nor is stun.
Druids for healing+nukes+evac. I know many groups given the choice of a backup healer or a pure nuke class would take the backup healer that can also nuke anyday. At higher levels classes love enchanters, bards or magicians for increased mana regen(KEI, mana song, rod of mystical transvergence).
People just need to accept that groups pick people for what they believe their needs are.
As a magician I wonder why people dont jump on someone who can nuke almost as good as a wizzie at my lvl(38) have a great pet and best DS in the game but some groups dont feel the need for my class or someone elses class.
A lot of time to it comes down to who is available right that second in zone.
As for a 4 or 5 wizzy group having best DPS. Unless its a 60+ group I would debate. That I would beleive magicians would win on that just from 4 or 5 tanks(with DS's)+ near wizzy level nukes. But oh well thats another debate for another time.
MrFixitx
Mr.Fixitx
First, let me make a comment. I'm quite surprised to not see Chanters mentioned in some of these "dream teams". To me, they're like an American Express card. Don't leave home without one.
Wizzies can be great for groups. Yes, they can stun, root, snare, and evac. All great fringe benefits to having one in the group.
Having said that, it's VERY important for a Wizzy to be disciplined in the use of his/her nukes. Playing a tank/off tank as my main, there's nothing quite so aggravating as having to run thru my group to get to a mob that an ill timed nuke (or critical blast) cause aggro loss.
I'm not sure whether it's the fact that a lot of people don't understand a Wizzy's overall capabilities or if they've had bad experiences with Wizzies shooting first and asking questions later.
I have a 54 Wizzy myself. And learned early on how and when to pop a mob without pulling aggro from the tank.
One of my best EQ buddies is a 65 Wizzy and he plays it to perfection. He's welcome in any group I'm ever in.
One suggestion would be to be very judicious about the use of those rain spells. A roamer walking into the AoE could ruin your day.
And as was stated above, if you don't already know how, learn to quad kite. But be advised, when you drop AE spells on mobs you're quadding, there's a decent chance you'll land a crit on one and not the rest. Can make for some unpleasant circumstances when your quad gets split and you're LOM.
Wizzies can be great for groups. Yes, they can stun, root, snare, and evac. All great fringe benefits to having one in the group.
Having said that, it's VERY important for a Wizzy to be disciplined in the use of his/her nukes. Playing a tank/off tank as my main, there's nothing quite so aggravating as having to run thru my group to get to a mob that an ill timed nuke (or critical blast) cause aggro loss.
I'm not sure whether it's the fact that a lot of people don't understand a Wizzy's overall capabilities or if they've had bad experiences with Wizzies shooting first and asking questions later.
I have a 54 Wizzy myself. And learned early on how and when to pop a mob without pulling aggro from the tank.
One of my best EQ buddies is a 65 Wizzy and he plays it to perfection. He's welcome in any group I'm ever in.
One suggestion would be to be very judicious about the use of those rain spells. A roamer walking into the AoE could ruin your day.
And as was stated above, if you don't already know how, learn to quad kite. But be advised, when you drop AE spells on mobs you're quadding, there's a decent chance you'll land a crit on one and not the rest. Can make for some unpleasant circumstances when your quad gets split and you're LOM.
Scholar
40 posts
Ok, here's my 2cp,
This is a great discussion. My main has been a wizard for 4 years. I have experience playing other classes as well: warrior, bard, shammy, rogue, and monk, though none to the extent of my wizard. My wizard is only level 57, although this is due in part to my losing the ability to play for months at a time. Your take on being a wizard is very accurate in most parts. One thing I thought was odd in the discussion about whether or not someone who achieved level 56 in three months was able to properly play their class, was that you mentioned using IC. The only time I ever use IC is when the mob is one I know won't resist it, and if it's going to be the kill shot. There are more mana efficient spells you can use and they also don't create as much aggro. I'm also surprised that no one else has mentioned this. This was something I was taught a long time ago by elder wizards: using more mana efficient, less damage dealing spells. I guess there are multiple ways to play, but that was wizzy 101 when I was learning.
You mentioned stunning which is an aspect a wizard is rarely known for. I have, on several occasions, been the 'slower' in a group by chain stunning. Now before everybody jumps on me for being a reckless moron, let me explain. With Manaskin, and my own hp buffs, I can be fairly sturdy in a fight (depending on the mob), so if I get aggro, I can usually take the hits while MT gets aggro back. Usually in these situations the MT was a Pally or other similar class with good taunting abilities. I would also do this in a group where our healing capabilities were limited (such as one druid/shammy being the only healer). Keeping a mob permanently stunned by cycling through my 4 stuns is quite effective. Even if one gets resisted, I can usually hit another one before the stun wears off. Obviously timing is essential, but doable after a few practices. And with 2 wizards you are virtually guaranteed the mob will never touch anyone. It's one of my favorite things to do, because it's risky, but I've always done it in controlled circumstances with competent group members, and no adverse consequences (dying) have happened.
Wizzies rule
Biltene Flaymestryke
57 Evoker
Brell-Serillis
This is a great discussion. My main has been a wizard for 4 years. I have experience playing other classes as well: warrior, bard, shammy, rogue, and monk, though none to the extent of my wizard. My wizard is only level 57, although this is due in part to my losing the ability to play for months at a time. Your take on being a wizard is very accurate in most parts. One thing I thought was odd in the discussion about whether or not someone who achieved level 56 in three months was able to properly play their class, was that you mentioned using IC. The only time I ever use IC is when the mob is one I know won't resist it, and if it's going to be the kill shot. There are more mana efficient spells you can use and they also don't create as much aggro. I'm also surprised that no one else has mentioned this. This was something I was taught a long time ago by elder wizards: using more mana efficient, less damage dealing spells. I guess there are multiple ways to play, but that was wizzy 101 when I was learning.
You mentioned stunning which is an aspect a wizard is rarely known for. I have, on several occasions, been the 'slower' in a group by chain stunning. Now before everybody jumps on me for being a reckless moron, let me explain. With Manaskin, and my own hp buffs, I can be fairly sturdy in a fight (depending on the mob), so if I get aggro, I can usually take the hits while MT gets aggro back. Usually in these situations the MT was a Pally or other similar class with good taunting abilities. I would also do this in a group where our healing capabilities were limited (such as one druid/shammy being the only healer). Keeping a mob permanently stunned by cycling through my 4 stuns is quite effective. Even if one gets resisted, I can usually hit another one before the stun wears off. Obviously timing is essential, but doable after a few practices. And with 2 wizards you are virtually guaranteed the mob will never touch anyone. It's one of my favorite things to do, because it's risky, but I've always done it in controlled circumstances with competent group members, and no adverse consequences (dying) have happened.
Wizzies rule
Biltene Flaymestryke
57 Evoker
Brell-Serillis
elorianBLAH wrote:
I'm kinda interested to see if a zerker can hold agro(see im still not sure if they are DPS or tank...I mean i've seen them tank well in a group but I seriously doubt they could keep agro in a raid and I really dont want to test it :P )
I've heard a few people talking about this. A Bezerker is a chain class, without dual wield. They have a sort of snare with a long recast time. I think you would rank them next to a Shaman as far as tanking is concerned.
They are pure DPS, I suspect we haven't seen the full extent of their DPS yet, but my betting is that they are capable of ranking up near a rogue.
Back to the subject of wizards in groups; i dont group that much, but i duoed nadox a few days ago with a wizard and he did nothing but nuke and break my roots for the lack of DoTs, perhaps they are good in groups but not in duos with druid, thats right, we dont need anyone 
haha
hahaUntil they hit 65 with 100+ aa, lots of FT gear, and appropriate focus items, wizards are absolutely NOT the best sustained DPS for a xp grind group, except under the best possible circumstances (outdoor, not moving, on a horse, etc). Once they hit a certain level/gear/aa, they put everyone else (except possibly necros under certain circumstances) to shame.
On the other hand, wizards are the undisputed masters of BURST dps. If something needs to be burned down immediately, you aren't going to do better than a wizard at almost any level, though again necros and perhaps magicians can come close under ideal conditions.
Sadly, knowing when to use burst DPS and get something burned down right now is a fairly rare skill to find and if I were putting together a pickup group I simply would not expect random joe-wizard to have that skill. If a wizard is not going to use his class defining capabilities of burst DPS properly, I'm much better off with a class who has better sustained DPS like a rogue or magician unless I really want the evac capabilities of the wizard. But in that case I might prefer a druid since they provide redundancy for my cleric.
Wizards are eventually the best DPS. But until you get the right level of gear/levels/aa, you simply need to resign yourself to being pretty far down on the list of DPS classes. But the light at the end of your long tunnel is quite bright. Guilds will snatch up a 65+aa wizard in a heartbeat once you get to where you ARE the best DPS. Sadly for all of us who've played wizards up through the 50s, they simply aren't that great until higher levels. Luckily, if the wizard can't get a group, it's no biggie, since they can go quad somewhere for fairly respectable XP.
Hmmm... A few comments here.
Ok. It's usually only lower level, or less experienced players who say this. If you actually had a character in the 65 (plus AA) range and saw the amounts of damage that rogues and rangers specifically can put out in melee without using *any* mana at all, you'd realize how naive this statement is.
Nuking for 3k looks really impresive until you see rogues BSing for 1700+ damage (which they get a shot at every 5ish seconds). Watch a ranger with all his archery AAs open up with trueshot sometime, and that 3k damage is going to look absolutely paltry.
Dont get me wrong, the wizards with their AAs can do huge damage as well. The point is there's a difference between sustained dps and burst dps. Burst dps is how much damage you can do if you don't care about your mana pool. Wizards are the undisputed masters of burst damage. No one is arguing that.
However, if you calculate the time it takes to regain the mana you spent on that nuke, you'll find that the sustained dps rate of wizards is actually kinda mediocre. Even with FT15, a mount, and KEI going, their damage over time just isn't that stellar. It's better then us non-dps classes, but it's not that great really. Over time, rogues, rangers, mages, and necros will definately outdamage a wizard in a group. Druids, shamans, monks, and possibly even warriors (probably zerkers) may also outdamage wizards over time depending on a variety of circumstances.
You mentioned stunning which is an aspect a wizard is rarely known for. I have, on several occasions, been the 'slower' in a group by chain stunning. Now before everybody jumps on me for being a reckless moron, let me explain. With Manaskin, and my own hp buffs, I can be fairly sturdy in a fight (depending on the mob), so if I get aggro, I can usually take the hits while MT gets aggro back. Usually in these situations the MT was a Pally or other similar class with good taunting abilities. I would also do this in a group where our healing capabilities were limited (such as one druid/shammy being the only healer). Keeping a mob permanently stunned by cycling through my 4 stuns is quite effective.
I agree that this *can* be a useful tactic. Honestly though, with the amount of mana you are spending on stuns doing this, you'd be better off just timing your nukes better, or using an agro reducer (like concussion).
I'm especially concerned that you specifically mentioned that your MT was usually a pally when you did this. What the heck are you thinking? Your paladin has more stuns then you. His are actually faster casting and easier to use to chain stun with. He's the one who *wants* agro. There is absolutely zero reason to be doing this with a paladin tanking. Either your pally tank has no clue what he's doing, or he's steaming mad at you for wasting his mana because he's having to fight that much harder to keep agro off you and on him (but is maybe being polite and not saying anything).
You are aware that a paladin's "taunting abilities" is casting stuns, right? Using stuns and justifying them because a pally can hold agro using his stuns is kinda silly, right? He's the tank. He's taking damage. Let him use his stuns to slow down the damage rate if he feels it's needed. You'll help you group far more by simply nuking the mob.
Yes. A good wizard should not ignore his stuns. But using them for no real reason is just a waste of mana, for the whole group. There are about as many good tactics as there are situations you can get yourself into in EQ. The mark of an experienced player is knowing what the right tactic is based on the situation. Stunning a mob as a wizard may be very useful in some situations. But in many other's it's going to be a total waste of mana. The trick is learning which is which. You don't learn that by reading a guide somewhere. You learn it through experience, not only with playing your class, but by playing others as well.
Having said that, it's VERY important for a Wizzy to be disciplined in the use of his/her nukes. Playing a tank/off tank as my main, there's nothing quite so aggravating as having to run thru my group to get to a mob that an ill timed nuke (or critical blast) cause aggro loss.
Gonna give you a hint based on my experience playing a paladin. If you are ever chasing a mob through a group of people because someone pulled agro off of you, you are doing something wrong.
Not because someone pulled agro off you. That can happen for any of a number of reasons. But because you should *never* be chasing a mob to get agro back. That's what warriors do. You have the mob targeted right? You should, since that's what you're fighting. The wizard (or whomever) just overagroed and the mob runs off to beat on them. The absolute *wrong* move is to try to find the mob and run up to it to get it back. Don't do that.
You have a stun or three loaded, right? It's really simple. If you are tanking and the mob you are tanking moves away from you, you hit one of your stun spell gems. Right then. Don't turn to see where it went. Don't run after it. Don't try to do anything else. Simply hit your "best" stun (best depends on a number of conditions, I generally use my most mana efficient stun that'll affect the mobs I'm fighting as my standard stun for a fight).
It'll take you no more then 1 to 1.5 seconds to do this. That's generally less time then it will take for the mob to move to the caster and get a round of swings off. You drop the stun first, and you will at the very least reagro the mob. It may also stop it in it's tracks, giving you plenty of time to now turn around and look for it.
A paladin should never be chasing a mob. I don't care why the mob left you, your first response should be a stun. If the mob got agroed by someone, you stun. If the mob got feared for some reason, you stun. If the mob is running at low health (and unsnared) you stun. You do that first. Then you figure out what to do next. I can't think of a single situation where you'd be tanking as a paldin where you wouldn't want to drop a stun on any mob that moves away from you (that you don't know about in advance at least).
A paladins first response to anything "odd" should be to stun the mob he's fighting. Yeah. It sounds kneejerk, but it will save people's lives. You don't have time to figure out what happened. Stun first and ask questions later... ;)
elorianBLAH wrote:
I'm sorry I've been reading some of this and I'm shocked.
A wizard can out DPS any class hands down I dont care what you say. A lvl 65 wizard can etierh chain cast SoS or the new gates nukes(3k a pop un focused) and critical out the wazoo...
A wizard can out DPS any class hands down I dont care what you say. A lvl 65 wizard can etierh chain cast SoS or the new gates nukes(3k a pop un focused) and critical out the wazoo...
Ok. It's usually only lower level, or less experienced players who say this. If you actually had a character in the 65 (plus AA) range and saw the amounts of damage that rogues and rangers specifically can put out in melee without using *any* mana at all, you'd realize how naive this statement is.
Nuking for 3k looks really impresive until you see rogues BSing for 1700+ damage (which they get a shot at every 5ish seconds). Watch a ranger with all his archery AAs open up with trueshot sometime, and that 3k damage is going to look absolutely paltry.
Dont get me wrong, the wizards with their AAs can do huge damage as well. The point is there's a difference between sustained dps and burst dps. Burst dps is how much damage you can do if you don't care about your mana pool. Wizards are the undisputed masters of burst damage. No one is arguing that.
However, if you calculate the time it takes to regain the mana you spent on that nuke, you'll find that the sustained dps rate of wizards is actually kinda mediocre. Even with FT15, a mount, and KEI going, their damage over time just isn't that stellar. It's better then us non-dps classes, but it's not that great really. Over time, rogues, rangers, mages, and necros will definately outdamage a wizard in a group. Druids, shamans, monks, and possibly even warriors (probably zerkers) may also outdamage wizards over time depending on a variety of circumstances.
Biltene wrote:
You mentioned stunning which is an aspect a wizard is rarely known for. I have, on several occasions, been the 'slower' in a group by chain stunning. Now before everybody jumps on me for being a reckless moron, let me explain. With Manaskin, and my own hp buffs, I can be fairly sturdy in a fight (depending on the mob), so if I get aggro, I can usually take the hits while MT gets aggro back. Usually in these situations the MT was a Pally or other similar class with good taunting abilities. I would also do this in a group where our healing capabilities were limited (such as one druid/shammy being the only healer). Keeping a mob permanently stunned by cycling through my 4 stuns is quite effective.
I agree that this *can* be a useful tactic. Honestly though, with the amount of mana you are spending on stuns doing this, you'd be better off just timing your nukes better, or using an agro reducer (like concussion).
I'm especially concerned that you specifically mentioned that your MT was usually a pally when you did this. What the heck are you thinking? Your paladin has more stuns then you. His are actually faster casting and easier to use to chain stun with. He's the one who *wants* agro. There is absolutely zero reason to be doing this with a paladin tanking. Either your pally tank has no clue what he's doing, or he's steaming mad at you for wasting his mana because he's having to fight that much harder to keep agro off you and on him (but is maybe being polite and not saying anything).
You are aware that a paladin's "taunting abilities" is casting stuns, right? Using stuns and justifying them because a pally can hold agro using his stuns is kinda silly, right? He's the tank. He's taking damage. Let him use his stuns to slow down the damage rate if he feels it's needed. You'll help you group far more by simply nuking the mob.
Yes. A good wizard should not ignore his stuns. But using them for no real reason is just a waste of mana, for the whole group. There are about as many good tactics as there are situations you can get yourself into in EQ. The mark of an experienced player is knowing what the right tactic is based on the situation. Stunning a mob as a wizard may be very useful in some situations. But in many other's it's going to be a total waste of mana. The trick is learning which is which. You don't learn that by reading a guide somewhere. You learn it through experience, not only with playing your class, but by playing others as well.
Ralston wrote:
Having said that, it's VERY important for a Wizzy to be disciplined in the use of his/her nukes. Playing a tank/off tank as my main, there's nothing quite so aggravating as having to run thru my group to get to a mob that an ill timed nuke (or critical blast) cause aggro loss.
Gonna give you a hint based on my experience playing a paladin. If you are ever chasing a mob through a group of people because someone pulled agro off of you, you are doing something wrong.
Not because someone pulled agro off you. That can happen for any of a number of reasons. But because you should *never* be chasing a mob to get agro back. That's what warriors do. You have the mob targeted right? You should, since that's what you're fighting. The wizard (or whomever) just overagroed and the mob runs off to beat on them. The absolute *wrong* move is to try to find the mob and run up to it to get it back. Don't do that.
You have a stun or three loaded, right? It's really simple. If you are tanking and the mob you are tanking moves away from you, you hit one of your stun spell gems. Right then. Don't turn to see where it went. Don't run after it. Don't try to do anything else. Simply hit your "best" stun (best depends on a number of conditions, I generally use my most mana efficient stun that'll affect the mobs I'm fighting as my standard stun for a fight).
It'll take you no more then 1 to 1.5 seconds to do this. That's generally less time then it will take for the mob to move to the caster and get a round of swings off. You drop the stun first, and you will at the very least reagro the mob. It may also stop it in it's tracks, giving you plenty of time to now turn around and look for it.
A paladin should never be chasing a mob. I don't care why the mob left you, your first response should be a stun. If the mob got agroed by someone, you stun. If the mob got feared for some reason, you stun. If the mob is running at low health (and unsnared) you stun. You do that first. Then you figure out what to do next. I can't think of a single situation where you'd be tanking as a paldin where you wouldn't want to drop a stun on any mob that moves away from you (that you don't know about in advance at least).
A paladins first response to anything "odd" should be to stun the mob he's fighting. Yeah. It sounds kneejerk, but it will save people's lives. You don't have time to figure out what happened. Stun first and ask questions later... ;)
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
All the posts saying Wiz are king of DPS indicate this is true at level 65 with loads of AA - and not so hot at lower levels. It is a long time to wait, if true. (I'm not saying it is true).
Long ago, wizards were really important to getting epics. I remember being in guilds who were trying hard to recruit wizards. Quite a bit of that special advantage is gone now as it's just not that big a deal to epic anymore. Was it replaced by any other wizard port only zones? I'm not in a hard core raiding guild so I don't know those zones.
If not, perhaps one or two zones with wizard only ports would be nice? (At the high end - we already have PoH and PoS but these are not so high end anymore) Idea being aspiring guilds would recruit wizards to help port people up - and said guilds would really want the wizards to advance.
Further, as a general class balance issue, perhaps they could give a raid exp bonus for raids with at least one member of every class (say 5% bonus). Obviously, you wouldn't include the new class (Berzerker) for, say, 9-12 months to allow time for a population of them to grow.
Long ago, wizards were really important to getting epics. I remember being in guilds who were trying hard to recruit wizards. Quite a bit of that special advantage is gone now as it's just not that big a deal to epic anymore. Was it replaced by any other wizard port only zones? I'm not in a hard core raiding guild so I don't know those zones.
If not, perhaps one or two zones with wizard only ports would be nice? (At the high end - we already have PoH and PoS but these are not so high end anymore) Idea being aspiring guilds would recruit wizards to help port people up - and said guilds would really want the wizards to advance.
Further, as a general class balance issue, perhaps they could give a raid exp bonus for raids with at least one member of every class (say 5% bonus). Obviously, you wouldn't include the new class (Berzerker) for, say, 9-12 months to allow time for a population of them to grow.
My question for Biltene would be, at 56, what spells would you prefer to use over Ice Comet? I prefer to use Tears of Solusek but I don't prefer the Draught spells because the mana efficiency of the draught spells is only about 3.2 versus 2.8 for the Ice Comet so it's not that much different. The Tears efficiency is over 4.7 which is why I prefer it.
I've been out quad kiting out of necessity the last few days. It turns out it is easy. If I don't get group invites, at least I'm one of the lucky classes that can solo. I made 57 quadding over the weekend.
I haven't been arguing that wizards are great for groups because we are the best dps. I think we are good. With my limited experience I wouldn't know if we are the best. Some posters say we are or we will be at 65. That's an extra bonus for the group if we are.
I'm trying to get 1400+ points in SRO LDONs so I can get a FT2 type 7 augment. I managed to talk a group into doing SRO over the weekend. They puller only agreed to do it because he knew I'd evac if he made a mistake. We were doing great in that LDON and we had it almost won when he finally did make a mistake and went around a corner and didn't see a mob and suddenly we had 4 mobs on us. 9 seconds later we were all safe in the entrance. Nobody dead. Nobody even hurt (the puller was down to 80%.) We went back and on our second try we killed all the mobs. I never am in a group that can't evac. I kind of take evac for granted but it is sure nice, and wizards can do a lot more than just evac.
I tried to make a group over the weekend. I saw a 55 CLR on LFG and I asked him if he wanted to group with me. He replied that he'd just been invited to a PoV group. Dang! That's not the first time a 55 clr has told me that. Clerics are lucky. I've never been invited to a PoV group. I've never even been to PoV yet.
I've been out quad kiting out of necessity the last few days. It turns out it is easy. If I don't get group invites, at least I'm one of the lucky classes that can solo. I made 57 quadding over the weekend.
I haven't been arguing that wizards are great for groups because we are the best dps. I think we are good. With my limited experience I wouldn't know if we are the best. Some posters say we are or we will be at 65. That's an extra bonus for the group if we are.
I'm trying to get 1400+ points in SRO LDONs so I can get a FT2 type 7 augment. I managed to talk a group into doing SRO over the weekend. They puller only agreed to do it because he knew I'd evac if he made a mistake. We were doing great in that LDON and we had it almost won when he finally did make a mistake and went around a corner and didn't see a mob and suddenly we had 4 mobs on us. 9 seconds later we were all safe in the entrance. Nobody dead. Nobody even hurt (the puller was down to 80%.) We went back and on our second try we killed all the mobs. I never am in a group that can't evac. I kind of take evac for granted but it is sure nice, and wizards can do a lot more than just evac.
I tried to make a group over the weekend. I saw a 55 CLR on LFG and I asked him if he wanted to group with me. He replied that he'd just been invited to a PoV group. Dang! That's not the first time a 55 clr has told me that. Clerics are lucky. I've never been invited to a PoV group. I've never even been to PoV yet.
Ok. It's usually only lower level, or less experienced players who say this. If you actually had a character in the 65 (plus AA) range and saw the amounts of damage that rogues and rangers specifically can put out in melee without using *any* mana at all, you'd realize how naive this statement is.
Nuking for 3k looks really impresive until you see rogues BSing for 1700+ damage (which they get a shot at every 5ish seconds). Watch a ranger with all his archery AAs open up with trueshot sometime, and that 3k damage is going to look absolutely paltry.
Dont get me wrong, the wizards with their AAs can do huge damage as well. The point is there's a difference between sustained dps and burst dps. Burst dps is how much damage you can do if you don't care about your mana pool. Wizards are the undisputed masters of burst damage. No one is arguing that.
However, if you calculate the time it takes to regain the mana you spent on that nuke, you'll find that the sustained dps rate of wizards is actually kinda mediocre. Even with FT15, a mount, and KEI going, their damage over time just isn't that stellar. It's better then us non-dps classes, but it's not that great really. Over time, rogues, rangers, mages, and necros will definately outdamage a wizard in a group. Druids, shamans, monks, and possibly even warriors (probably zerkers) may also outdamage wizards over time depending on a variety of circumstances.
I have seen High level rogues and rangers with AAs and I ahev also seen high level wizards with AAs and wizards will out damage them, Perhaps in a dungeon or against a mob with less hit points a melee class will out DPS a wizard but against a raid mob hell no not even close. Think about it a good wizard can cast SoS t least 12 times and usually even more thats a lot of damage...Now lets say they really want to show off their DPS and chain cast Tears of Marr with all 3 of there lvl 60 cheap fast ice nukes along with iceflame....Each of those nukes can do around 1850 fully focused cost 250mana and you'll be sitting on a drog/horse with KEi and bard mana regen along with 9 SD and you shield(2 mana per tic) add in flowing thought and any other mana regen(composure etc...) and mana wont be a problem....And thats not even including the crits and the new focus that the gates familiars can add(not sure about how much it increase nuke damage...).
Nuking for 3k looks really impresive until you see rogues BSing for 1700+ damage (which they get a shot at every 5ish seconds). Watch a ranger with all his archery AAs open up with trueshot sometime, and that 3k damage is going to look absolutely paltry.
Dont get me wrong, the wizards with their AAs can do huge damage as well. The point is there's a difference between sustained dps and burst dps. Burst dps is how much damage you can do if you don't care about your mana pool. Wizards are the undisputed masters of burst damage. No one is arguing that.
However, if you calculate the time it takes to regain the mana you spent on that nuke, you'll find that the sustained dps rate of wizards is actually kinda mediocre. Even with FT15, a mount, and KEI going, their damage over time just isn't that stellar. It's better then us non-dps classes, but it's not that great really. Over time, rogues, rangers, mages, and necros will definately outdamage a wizard in a group. Druids, shamans, monks, and possibly even warriors (probably zerkers) may also outdamage wizards over time depending on a variety of circumstances.
I have seen High level rogues and rangers with AAs and I ahev also seen high level wizards with AAs and wizards will out damage them, Perhaps in a dungeon or against a mob with less hit points a melee class will out DPS a wizard but against a raid mob hell no not even close. Think about it a good wizard can cast SoS t least 12 times and usually even more thats a lot of damage...Now lets say they really want to show off their DPS and chain cast Tears of Marr with all 3 of there lvl 60 cheap fast ice nukes along with iceflame....Each of those nukes can do around 1850 fully focused cost 250mana and you'll be sitting on a drog/horse with KEi and bard mana regen along with 9 SD and you shield(2 mana per tic) add in flowing thought and any other mana regen(composure etc...) and mana wont be a problem....And thats not even including the crits and the new focus that the gates familiars can add(not sure about how much it increase nuke damage...).
Actually i would also like to add that Wizards can go above the FT 15 cap with 2 more additions there Alligent familar is an 8 mana a tic +40 to all resists to boot and there Clicky is also an addtional 3 mana per tic so essentially wizzies can get mana regen of 26 + mount(if outdoors i think its 22 per tic with max med could be wrong) + chanter( think VOQ is 16 atic) + bard (8 per tic)(if one is availible)which gives a grand total of 72 a tic Ohhh i forgot 1 more 3 more for mental clarity which makes 75 a tic so basically ever 45 sec we will gain the lost mana to cast 1 more nuke granted most casters wont start nuking tell around 80 percent lets see with ID 4 and SOS that makes that nuke a base of 3k and i can cast when burning all mana cost for SOS is 640 lets say that i have a man pool of 4150 ( which isnt hard to get ) that will let me to cast 6 SOS non stop this is without envoc skill checks and without other aa skil checks that will give a potential minimum dmg of 18k worth of dmg granted thats a potential figure and im not disputing any other classes ability to make EYE CANDY ( to me what crits are) If you toss crits out the window who would make dmg sure as heck wont be a melee.
Quote:
Think about it a good wizard can cast SoS t least 12 times and usually even more thats a lot of damage...Now lets say they really want to show off their DPS and chain cast Tears of Marr with all 3 of there lvl 60 cheap fast ice nukes along with iceflame....Each of those nukes can do around 1850 fully focused cost 250mana
Rogues do backstabs upto 1.5k damage mana free, Rangers crit for 2-3k for the cost of umm nothing with endless quiver.
Rogue backstab refresh 5 secs <using Gbaji's info he knows better than me> and they can tag in an instant aggro loss via evade. If you are talking about uber AA then rogue can triple backstab and assasinate.
Sos: cast time 8 secs, add in 2 secs for refresh that we all know and hate.
Tears of Marr. cast time 3.5 + refresh of 2 secs
that means that a rogue could potentially BS twice for each SoS and once for each ToM factor all the non BS damage and rogues are going to be up with wizzie for zero mana with built in aggro management.
not sure on ranger range melee time but i am pretty sure that they can throw arrows out faster than wizzies can throw spells.
Again i am not saying wizzies are not welcome in my groups but sweeping statements about 'Best DPS' are opening up a can of worms that wizzies cannot win in a sustained raid environment <like a mob that can take 10 sos or 27k dmg over and above the melee damage being dished out>
2 posts
I'm in a fairly unique position: I'm the only wizard (currently level 57) in a growing semi-Raiding Guild (Norrathian Carnage, The Tribunal). Raids have started to be PLANNED around me being there to TL people out at the end of the raid.
It's nice to be loved
It's nice to be loved
Elorian and Dark. You guys are completely missing the point. I said their sustained dps isn't the best (it's good. Just not the best).
You keep countering with statements like: "but I can cast X number of nukeZ before running out of mana!". If you ran out of mana, by definition, you can't *sustain* that rate of casting. You are talking about burst damage, which everyone conceeds wizards are the best at. Sustained mana means the amount of damage you can keep doing over a long period of time. When calculating sustained damage rate, your mana pool and the casting time of the spells is completely irrelevant. All that matters is the rate of your mana recovery and therefore the amount of damage you can continuously do over time.
Let's take an example: SoS does 1740 damage for 640 mana. I'll ignore AAs for the moment, just to give a baseline. Let's assume he's got the 8mana familiar, and a KEI (more likely for a long term grouping unless you've got a chanter in the group). We'll also not assume a bard in the group. Taking the 22 med number (good as any I guess), we've got 22+8+15+15 (I'm going to be nice and give this wiz FT15). That's a grand total of 60 mana recovered per tic. This is probably in the mid range of "well equiped". Not every 65th level wizard is going to have a full 15 points of mana regen, but most will have some AAs to make up for it, so that washes. Also, 60 mana regen makes the calcs nicer... :)
So. At 60 mana a tick and 640 mana, we're taking up 10.3 tics to get the mana back from a single casting of SoS. That's 62 seconds per nuke. 2740/62 = 44.2 damage per second. That's also assuming a max hit on every nuke too (but I'm not counting crits either. This is just a baseline after all).
That's *really* not that high. Now, obviously, once you add in specialization effects, and SCM, and mental clarity, and an ID4 item, and all the other goodies, we can expect that to increase by some amount. But not that much. Maybe you can increase the dps rate by 50% or so. Adding a bard, and Pot9, and every freaking mana regen possible still doesn't do more then give us a few more percent in our sustained DPS.
Rangers and rogues with less expensive gear and fewer AAs then the wizard in our baseline can *trivially* exceed that dps in a group. With no mana cost. Thus, over the long haul, everything else being vaguely even, they will outdamage a wizard.
However, burst damage is a whole different enchilada. If all you care about is doing damage *really fast*, wizards are who you want. In the cast of burst damage, we don't really care what the mana cost is. Mana only determines how long we can keep up the burst. Take the same spell. SoS does 2740 damage with a cast time of 8 seconds and a recast time of 2.25 seconds (default). That's 2740 damage very 10.25 seconds, or 2740/10.25 = 267.3 damage per second. That's huge. Add in your specs, crits and everything else, and that's a truely tremendous amount of damage that a wizard can dish out in a short amount of time.
That's what wizards are good for. They aren't the greatest sustained dps in the game. In fact, I think they are in the bottom half of classes in terms of sustained dps. However, they are the absolute masters of fast damage. If you need a mob burned down *now*, you want a wizard to do it.
You keep countering with statements like: "but I can cast X number of nukeZ before running out of mana!". If you ran out of mana, by definition, you can't *sustain* that rate of casting. You are talking about burst damage, which everyone conceeds wizards are the best at. Sustained mana means the amount of damage you can keep doing over a long period of time. When calculating sustained damage rate, your mana pool and the casting time of the spells is completely irrelevant. All that matters is the rate of your mana recovery and therefore the amount of damage you can continuously do over time.
Let's take an example: SoS does 1740 damage for 640 mana. I'll ignore AAs for the moment, just to give a baseline. Let's assume he's got the 8mana familiar, and a KEI (more likely for a long term grouping unless you've got a chanter in the group). We'll also not assume a bard in the group. Taking the 22 med number (good as any I guess), we've got 22+8+15+15 (I'm going to be nice and give this wiz FT15). That's a grand total of 60 mana recovered per tic. This is probably in the mid range of "well equiped". Not every 65th level wizard is going to have a full 15 points of mana regen, but most will have some AAs to make up for it, so that washes. Also, 60 mana regen makes the calcs nicer... :)
So. At 60 mana a tick and 640 mana, we're taking up 10.3 tics to get the mana back from a single casting of SoS. That's 62 seconds per nuke. 2740/62 = 44.2 damage per second. That's also assuming a max hit on every nuke too (but I'm not counting crits either. This is just a baseline after all).
That's *really* not that high. Now, obviously, once you add in specialization effects, and SCM, and mental clarity, and an ID4 item, and all the other goodies, we can expect that to increase by some amount. But not that much. Maybe you can increase the dps rate by 50% or so. Adding a bard, and Pot9, and every freaking mana regen possible still doesn't do more then give us a few more percent in our sustained DPS.
Rangers and rogues with less expensive gear and fewer AAs then the wizard in our baseline can *trivially* exceed that dps in a group. With no mana cost. Thus, over the long haul, everything else being vaguely even, they will outdamage a wizard.
However, burst damage is a whole different enchilada. If all you care about is doing damage *really fast*, wizards are who you want. In the cast of burst damage, we don't really care what the mana cost is. Mana only determines how long we can keep up the burst. Take the same spell. SoS does 2740 damage with a cast time of 8 seconds and a recast time of 2.25 seconds (default). That's 2740 damage very 10.25 seconds, or 2740/10.25 = 267.3 damage per second. That's huge. Add in your specs, crits and everything else, and that's a truely tremendous amount of damage that a wizard can dish out in a short amount of time.
That's what wizards are good for. They aren't the greatest sustained dps in the game. In fact, I think they are in the bottom half of classes in terms of sustained dps. However, they are the absolute masters of fast damage. If you need a mob burned down *now*, you want a wizard to do it.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Im a lvl 41 Wiz.. I´ve been playing EQ for less then a week..
I might not be so good at knowing everything my class can do but I try my best to learn.
You can say that I´ve got high INT/WIS irl cause I learn fast.. ;) That or the fact that Im bored at work so I do nothing but read tutorials/faq´s/information 8 hours a day. That plus my brother who have played EQ for a long time and have 2 lvl 65 chars and a few 50+ chars is playing with me the whole time. We are on voicecommunications the whole time so he keeps feeding me with tips and information.
So Im a n00b.. You can hate/dislike me if you want. I know I dislike many noobs. noobs that keeps training people just because they are to cheap to buy invis potions/buffs, people who shout 'train' without telling were, killstealers etc.. I haven´t pulled a single train so far and I hope I never will. I rather die then risk the life of innocent. :)
Anyways, I find little tutorials about when to use ae. Anyone have a good tutorial? Nope, I dont mean ae when kiting, I hardly ever kite since my brother tanks for me. And some more info about grouping. I have only grouped with my brother so far since I dont want to do anything wrong to harm my group. Want to be better prepered be4 grouping. :) Prolly gonna try my first group tonight with my brothers lvl 65 dude looking over my shoulder to stop me from making misstakes. I guess I know as much as one can about grouping without ever being in a group so I should be fine.
bla bla..
Did I say I was bored at work? :p
Edited, Tue Aug 3 09:51:40 2004 by BumbiRagnar
I might not be so good at knowing everything my class can do but I try my best to learn.
You can say that I´ve got high INT/WIS irl cause I learn fast.. ;) That or the fact that Im bored at work so I do nothing but read tutorials/faq´s/information 8 hours a day. That plus my brother who have played EQ for a long time and have 2 lvl 65 chars and a few 50+ chars is playing with me the whole time. We are on voicecommunications the whole time so he keeps feeding me with tips and information.
So Im a n00b.. You can hate/dislike me if you want. I know I dislike many noobs. noobs that keeps training people just because they are to cheap to buy invis potions/buffs, people who shout 'train' without telling were, killstealers etc.. I haven´t pulled a single train so far and I hope I never will. I rather die then risk the life of innocent. :)
Anyways, I find little tutorials about when to use ae. Anyone have a good tutorial? Nope, I dont mean ae when kiting, I hardly ever kite since my brother tanks for me. And some more info about grouping. I have only grouped with my brother so far since I dont want to do anything wrong to harm my group. Want to be better prepered be4 grouping. :) Prolly gonna try my first group tonight with my brothers lvl 65 dude looking over my shoulder to stop me from making misstakes. I guess I know as much as one can about grouping without ever being in a group so I should be fine.
bla bla..
Did I say I was bored at work? :p
Edited, Tue Aug 3 09:51:40 2004 by BumbiRagnar
Quote:
Im a lvl 41 Wiz.. I´ve been playing EQ for less then a week..
what server are you on so i can avoid you?
Ummmmmm..... wuh?
41 in your first week? Your brother's 65 level toons got you to this level I'd presume?
This is the single worst way to learn the game there is. There are vital things you need to learn in the lower levels before you go into powerleveling, there's just no way a person can be a good player if they're leveling at this rate.
BTW, please don't bump 4 month old posts.
41 in your first week? Your brother's 65 level toons got you to this level I'd presume?
This is the single worst way to learn the game there is. There are vital things you need to learn in the lower levels before you go into powerleveling, there's just no way a person can be a good player if they're leveling at this rate.
BTW, please don't bump 4 month old posts.
No need to be rude..
I´ve met players who have played casually for years that are bigger noobs then me. Not saying Im not a noob ofcourse.
Im on Stromm, sure avoid me if you like but soon I will know more then most and be more powerfull then most. Its just a matter of time.
Watched my bro play for many hours the past years be4 starting to play on my own, reading on homepages 8 hours per day, printing stuff so I can read when I go to sleep, put up maps on the walls around my puter, play 5+ hours per day, getting info and stuff on voicecom every second when I play... Sure I dont have any respect and nor shall I. But I will gain it in time so dont avoid me 4ever dude.
Hmm.. I wonder how long my girlfriend will put up with this... :p
Yeah! Single soon! :p
[edit]
Sorry if its old news but I found alot of good info in this post since Im a wizard.
[/edit]
Edited, Tue Aug 3 10:45:20 2004 by BumbiRagnar
Edited, Tue Aug 3 10:46:38 2004 by BumbiRagnar
I´ve met players who have played casually for years that are bigger noobs then me. Not saying Im not a noob ofcourse.
Im on Stromm, sure avoid me if you like but soon I will know more then most and be more powerfull then most. Its just a matter of time.
Watched my bro play for many hours the past years be4 starting to play on my own, reading on homepages 8 hours per day, printing stuff so I can read when I go to sleep, put up maps on the walls around my puter, play 5+ hours per day, getting info and stuff on voicecom every second when I play... Sure I dont have any respect and nor shall I. But I will gain it in time so dont avoid me 4ever dude.
Hmm.. I wonder how long my girlfriend will put up with this... :p
Yeah! Single soon! :p
[edit]
Sorry if its old news but I found alot of good info in this post since Im a wizard.
[/edit]
Edited, Tue Aug 3 10:45:20 2004 by BumbiRagnar
Edited, Tue Aug 3 10:46:38 2004 by BumbiRagnar
Eh..who knows, maybe you're the exception. /Shrug
Why do I picture John Nash's garage in 'A Beatiful Mind' when you you described your room though?
Why do I picture John Nash's garage in 'A Beatiful Mind' when you you described your room though?
I play a 2 year old level 65 rogue. Pre-LDoN, I was feeling unloved, struggling to get groups. Since LDoN, the rogue rep as a DPS class seems to be much more common knowledge, and finding groups has been much easier.
Plus I'm not one to sit around and wait for groups anyway. If nothing is happening guild-wise, I start recruiting a group via the LFG window.
Build up some leadership points and a rep as a fair leader and people will join your LDoN's.
I suggest if you are having trouble getting groups, you utilize the comment section of the LFG window. It helps to know if a toon is LF a LDoN, or a GoD or PoP group, or if that person only has LFG up because he's on a raid and waiting to get organized.
As far as inviting wizards to groups... a tank and healer are required, and a slower and CC are prefered, and many times just as necessary, but once those needs are filled, wizards are at the top of my list! And again, I play a rogue.
I find the difference in DPS to be noticible. I like mage's, beastloards, and rangers for utility and DPS, but wizards are right up there in desirability for me. Actually, I'll take a mis-matched group of well played toons over a dream team any day. A well played bard is an amazing thing, and a well played necro is great to group with. But all it takes is 6 toons working together to complete a normal-risk LDoN these days.
Anyway, back on track,
MY POINT...
The parse's I have seen have wizards at the top of the DPS list. Occasionaly, you'll see a rogue at the top, but the parses I have seen have the wizards and rogues alone battling for positioning in the top ten.
I think the notion wizards are not at least tied with rogues, if not clearly number one, for DPS, is ridiculous. Sure, several classes are "DPS" contributors, and every guild will have one beast or mage or ranger that is played so well they compete with the wizards and rogues, but one class has to be number one, and if it isn't rogues, it wizards. Again, the parses I have seen against high-end mobs, what I mean is sustained duration fights, have wizards littering the top of the list. If you have a parse with any other classes besides rogues consistantly beating wizards in DPS, please share. I don't think it exists, because I'm araid the theories of wizards running out of mana or not being able to nuke enough to do top DPS because of agro, are flat out wrong.
Don't take my word for it, check out a parse for yourself. And the next time you have a wizard in your group, try to notice if you kill faster. My impression is you do. And the parses I've seen back it up.
As far as the utility wizards can contribute, don't wait to be asked, please offer. Offer to your group to be "on snares". Offer to do anything you feel you can to help.
Edited, Tue Aug 3 11:48:08 2004 by sbnut
Plus I'm not one to sit around and wait for groups anyway. If nothing is happening guild-wise, I start recruiting a group via the LFG window.
Build up some leadership points and a rep as a fair leader and people will join your LDoN's.
I suggest if you are having trouble getting groups, you utilize the comment section of the LFG window. It helps to know if a toon is LF a LDoN, or a GoD or PoP group, or if that person only has LFG up because he's on a raid and waiting to get organized.
As far as inviting wizards to groups... a tank and healer are required, and a slower and CC are prefered, and many times just as necessary, but once those needs are filled, wizards are at the top of my list! And again, I play a rogue.
I find the difference in DPS to be noticible. I like mage's, beastloards, and rangers for utility and DPS, but wizards are right up there in desirability for me. Actually, I'll take a mis-matched group of well played toons over a dream team any day. A well played bard is an amazing thing, and a well played necro is great to group with. But all it takes is 6 toons working together to complete a normal-risk LDoN these days.
Anyway, back on track,
MY POINT...
The parse's I have seen have wizards at the top of the DPS list. Occasionaly, you'll see a rogue at the top, but the parses I have seen have the wizards and rogues alone battling for positioning in the top ten.
I think the notion wizards are not at least tied with rogues, if not clearly number one, for DPS, is ridiculous. Sure, several classes are "DPS" contributors, and every guild will have one beast or mage or ranger that is played so well they compete with the wizards and rogues, but one class has to be number one, and if it isn't rogues, it wizards. Again, the parses I have seen against high-end mobs, what I mean is sustained duration fights, have wizards littering the top of the list. If you have a parse with any other classes besides rogues consistantly beating wizards in DPS, please share. I don't think it exists, because I'm araid the theories of wizards running out of mana or not being able to nuke enough to do top DPS because of agro, are flat out wrong.
Don't take my word for it, check out a parse for yourself. And the next time you have a wizard in your group, try to notice if you kill faster. My impression is you do. And the parses I've seen back it up.
As far as the utility wizards can contribute, don't wait to be asked, please offer. Offer to your group to be "on snares". Offer to do anything you feel you can to help.
Edited, Tue Aug 3 11:48:08 2004 by sbnut
My wizards burst DPS is roughly around 500 when I use my gates nuke and both lvl 60 ice nukes with iceflame(chaining all 3) not including crits or partial resists(I figure the 2 will cancel each other out in the long run) 450ish just chaining my gates nuke. Now I can chain these maybe 15 times(ish). In a group that is more than enough to kill a mob(in LDONs if we don't have a bard or chanter and we pull 2-3 I'll grab one and nuke/root it or is space allows kite it....unless its a hard LDON then i'll complain out the wazoo about being on a hard without CC and evac :P ). In raids right now i might be out dpsed by a lot of classes but only b/c my burst DPS is so high and higher lvl mobs are harder to taunt and some ahve agro debuffers and i'll be damned if I pull a mob off the tank turn him and let him send a directional AE DD at me and the other casters...So in raids I don't "unleash the fury" :P till needed I'll chian both lvl 60 ice based spells for 253 DPS(and raid buffed with max mana regen and all the ergen spells you'll only spend about 288 per nuke cycle since you'll be pulling 81 mana) plus I can throw in a conc after words while I wait for spell gems to repop.......Now 253 isn't that much but I can do it all day and never run out of mana or get summoned......Burst is different like i said 500ish dps and Im not even time/gates equiped yet. My guild has several alts in it from AO and CFu and they say there wizards can pull around 600dps.....taht is more than any other class could dream of...Sorry for the sloppiness of the post
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