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Paladin Vs Shadow KnightFollow
20 posts
Ok on a whole which class would you rather have tanking for you the Paladin or the Shadow Knight?
What level? how many AA's? what mob?
Your question is so general it is meaningless and any answer would be situational.
Your question is so general it is meaningless and any answer would be situational.
Yes, you need to be a little more specific in asking the question. I play a pally (my original main) along with clc and chanter but I dont have a SK so I will give you my observations with that warning.
Having the Pally usually means being puller due to soothe line of spells and often will either MT or assist. Pallys bring good dps and backup healing/stun spells to the group and can root adds in a pinch. The LOH full heal can be a lifesaver in critical situations.
The SK bring a lot more damage to the table between spells, pet, and harmtouch it appears to me. So I would think that the answer to your question would be whether the group needs backup healing from pally more than extra damage from SK depending upon who else is in the group (assuming you dont have both).
I know I love to have SKs along with the Pally for combat in groups and I think they are mirror images of each other in terms of class. I will be interested to see what Sks post for answers.
Having the Pally usually means being puller due to soothe line of spells and often will either MT or assist. Pallys bring good dps and backup healing/stun spells to the group and can root adds in a pinch. The LOH full heal can be a lifesaver in critical situations.
The SK bring a lot more damage to the table between spells, pet, and harmtouch it appears to me. So I would think that the answer to your question would be whether the group needs backup healing from pally more than extra damage from SK depending upon who else is in the group (assuming you dont have both).
I know I love to have SKs along with the Pally for combat in groups and I think they are mirror images of each other in terms of class. I will be interested to see what Sks post for answers.
He didnt ask about doing damage or pulling, just in tanking.
Paladins and Sk are on the same hp table, so any difference will be due to equipment. Take the one with the best ac and hp is the answer.
OR
Ask a more detailed question.
Paladins and Sk are on the same hp table, so any difference will be due to equipment. Take the one with the best ac and hp is the answer.
OR
Ask a more detailed question.
Jonwin wrote:
He didnt ask about doing damage or pulling, just in tanking.
Paladins and Sk are on the same hp table, so any difference will be due to equipment. Take the one with the best ac and hp is the answer.
OR
Ask a more detailed question.
Paladins and Sk are on the same hp table, so any difference will be due to equipment. Take the one with the best ac and hp is the answer.
OR
Ask a more detailed question.
So...if the question is "which one is the best tank?" and they are equal in HPs...then things like dps, backup heals, paci capabilities all come into play in formulating the answer. i.e. there is a Pally and an SK with equal HPs, which one would you want tanking for you?
Sounds like they were answering properly.
as a tank, id rather have a warrior, but if none are around then i go with SK over pally.
that has nothing to do with the class, its abilities, or anything else. it is simply a personal prefferance.
both tank very well, not as well as a warrior but still good enough, both have usefull group spells, both hold agro very well, both can pull very well, so it biols down to personal prefferance if all other items are equal.
take 65th pally 400AA time gear vs an equivilent SK and they will both do a great job.
take a warrior with equivilent gear and aa and he will do better.
that has nothing to do with the class, its abilities, or anything else. it is simply a personal prefferance.
both tank very well, not as well as a warrior but still good enough, both have usefull group spells, both hold agro very well, both can pull very well, so it biols down to personal prefferance if all other items are equal.
take 65th pally 400AA time gear vs an equivilent SK and they will both do a great job.
take a warrior with equivilent gear and aa and he will do better.
Quote:
Pallys bring good dps
Relative to what? A cleric?
Pally have the absolute worst DPS of ANY class aside from the key support classes (shaman, cleric, ench).
I think the main factor is the level and stunnability of the mob. If the monster is 65 or under and can be stunned pallies are incredible tanks with great damage mitigation due to stuns. If they are stun immune or 66+ SK are better off tanking.
I don't know how you can lump shaman in with clerics and enchanters as low DPS classes.
Pallys and SK would do great damage if they didn't miss 42% of their swings...
Pallys and SK would do great damage if they didn't miss 42% of their swings...
At the top end, both classes have identical defensive skills, the same approximate choices in gear, and the same HP. Both have sufficient spell options in combat to take and hold agro allowing for faster casting in a group then otherwise.
I would still tend to catagorize a paladin as just slightly better as a group tank then a SK. This is purely because of the stuns. While the SK will dish out more damage and other effects by using his spells, the paladin will actually reduce the amount of damage taken while tanking (and it's hard to *not* tank if you are chain stunning). The ability to not just out agro, but physically stop the mob in it's tracks in the event someone else does get agro is huge. IMHO, everything else being equal, that makes the pally just a bit better at the role of "main tank". First and foremost, the job of the main tank is to ensure that all the damage is taken by him and no one else. Stuns give a huge amount of mob control to the paladin. We can literally keep a mob stunned (doing no damage) for the entire duration of a CH cast. That's a pretty nice saftey net (which unfortunately many clerics don't take advantage of since they'll still drop a feaking patch on me...)
On the other hand, the paladin does not bring to the table all the stuff the SK does. SKs have those group spell effects which can be very significant for group kill rate. SKs have snare (which you can just never underestimate the value of). If you're going to be very narrow about your criteria, you'll be missing lots of other things that both classes can bring to a group. I've just haven't seen that many situations where the specific abilities of either class made or broke a group (and honestly, it's more likely to be the SK with his snare, then the pally with his stuns, but that's not part of "tanking", right?).
Edited, Fri Mar 19 17:29:54 2004 by gbaji
I would still tend to catagorize a paladin as just slightly better as a group tank then a SK. This is purely because of the stuns. While the SK will dish out more damage and other effects by using his spells, the paladin will actually reduce the amount of damage taken while tanking (and it's hard to *not* tank if you are chain stunning). The ability to not just out agro, but physically stop the mob in it's tracks in the event someone else does get agro is huge. IMHO, everything else being equal, that makes the pally just a bit better at the role of "main tank". First and foremost, the job of the main tank is to ensure that all the damage is taken by him and no one else. Stuns give a huge amount of mob control to the paladin. We can literally keep a mob stunned (doing no damage) for the entire duration of a CH cast. That's a pretty nice saftey net (which unfortunately many clerics don't take advantage of since they'll still drop a feaking patch on me...)
On the other hand, the paladin does not bring to the table all the stuff the SK does. SKs have those group spell effects which can be very significant for group kill rate. SKs have snare (which you can just never underestimate the value of). If you're going to be very narrow about your criteria, you'll be missing lots of other things that both classes can bring to a group. I've just haven't seen that many situations where the specific abilities of either class made or broke a group (and honestly, it's more likely to be the SK with his snare, then the pally with his stuns, but that's not part of "tanking", right?).
Edited, Fri Mar 19 17:29:54 2004 by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
I would also like to add that Sk's have agro enhancing spells and deaggro enhancespells for group members ( there hate line)
they can also feed mana and hp. To be honest between the 2 its a Tie they both offer advatages and disadvantages.. Yes pallys can lull pull and giving sk's room they can fein pull snare one mob and fein and will bring one its really how the dynamics are actually played that makes a person either good or bad. But i think between the 2 are tied.
they can also feed mana and hp. To be honest between the 2 its a Tie they both offer advatages and disadvantages.. Yes pallys can lull pull and giving sk's room they can fein pull snare one mob and fein and will bring one its really how the dynamics are actually played that makes a person either good or bad. But i think between the 2 are tied.
If equipment is about the same, i would say SK based on race.
while pally and sk are on the same hp tables perhaps, a Ogre SK has a higher sta (hence higher hp) then a High Elf Paladin if both are wearing the same equipment. Ogres also can't get stunned from the front.
On the flip side, a dwarven pally would be stronger and healtier than a dark elf shadowknight
Of course this is putting aside skill :-D
while pally and sk are on the same hp tables perhaps, a Ogre SK has a higher sta (hence higher hp) then a High Elf Paladin if both are wearing the same equipment. Ogres also can't get stunned from the front.
On the flip side, a dwarven pally would be stronger and healtier than a dark elf shadowknight
Of course this is putting aside skill :-D
Darksaber wrote:
I would also like to add that Sk's have agro enhancing spells and deaggro enhancespells for group members ( there hate line)
they can also feed mana and hp. To be honest between the 2 its a Tie they both offer advatages and disadvantages.. Yes pallys can lull pull and giving sk's room they can fein pull snare one mob and fein and will bring one its really how the dynamics are actually played that makes a person either good or bad. But i think between the 2 are tied.
they can also feed mana and hp. To be honest between the 2 its a Tie they both offer advatages and disadvantages.. Yes pallys can lull pull and giving sk's room they can fein pull snare one mob and fein and will bring one its really how the dynamics are actually played that makes a person either good or bad. But i think between the 2 are tied.
Yes. Which is why if the question was: "Which is more useful in a group", I'd have to say they are both equally usesful. They both bring things to a group. But the question was "Which is better at tanking for a group?". I still have to say paladin. A tank does two things: "Keep agro", and "Don't die" (to put it really simply). Stuns allow a paladin to recover from a situation that would kill a SK outright (in terms of tanking). I can be at 1% health, drop a stun on the mob, then chain a second stun 3 seconds later, and provide upwards of 8-10 seconds for a heal to land (and that's assuming a mob up to level 65. If the mob is under level 61, I can effectively chain stun *forever*, preventing the mob from doing any damage at all to me until my mana runs out). A SK, for all his agro generation and debuffing and lifetapping, will die about 1-2 seconds later in the above situation (long before even a fast patch could land).
Sure. That's an extreme case, but it happens more often then you might think. Healer's not paying attention. Chat lag spikes (preventing health updates until too late). A bad fizzle run. Mistargeting of a spell. I don't think there's a single person on this board (or elsewhere), who's tanked for groups but can say that he's "never" ended out suddenly sitting at a very low health (15% or lower) in a group for one reason or another. A paladin can virtually 100% guarantee he'll recover from that situation, with no particular heroics required of his healers or the rest of the group. No other tanking class can say that. Every other class has to sit there and just hope and pray that the heals land in time to save him. Everything else being equal, that extra bit of saftey net pushes the paladin in the lead for "best group tank".
Oh. And if the healers are really sleeping on the job? We've got that LoH ability too.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
One SK ability I think you missed there is the lifetaps. Healing a high level SK can be a very boring job when they are chaining "exceptional heals".
I think my answer would be whichever of them will put up with me as a cleric.
I think my answer would be whichever of them will put up with me as a cleric.
Wherever I go - there I am.
I prefer Paladins over Shadowknights. Their stun is not only a solid agro lock, it is a mini slow and cast breaker in itself.
But, I cannot push 'Post Message' before I also note that the Aura of Hate recourse-spells make me a very happy rogue as well.
But, I cannot push 'Post Message' before I also note that the Aura of Hate recourse-spells make me a very happy rogue as well.
I'd prefer the tank with the more capable person playing whichever toon they happen to be playing. A well played shadow knight or paladin is incredible. A so so played shadow knight or paladin is, well but whoopti do. Poorly played shadow knight or paladin is nearly as much fun as getting wisdom teeth pulled without the use of any drugs.
I've played with the entire gambit of paladins and sk's and imo both can be incredible tanks.
I've played with the entire gambit of paladins and sk's and imo both can be incredible tanks.
SK's and Pallies were pretty much made to be "equal but opposite" classes. Really not much more to say that that. SK's are a little more offensive, and Pallies a bit more defensive, but but mostly equal other than that.
18 posts
In Ldon I prefer a paladin over a shadowknight because they have lull which saves time and damage while pulling over having to ask for one. Also the group heals and buffs are good to have especially with a lower level cleric or when using a shaman or druid for heals. Not that I wouldnt take a SK, mind you - just a mild situational preference.
yes, LDoN is the ONLY time i personaly prefer to have a pally in the group.
a good pally in LDoN can make or break a hard advent.
a good pally in LDoN can make or break a hard advent.
silly question. no one tank class is better than the others, they all have good and bad ppoints, as a rule of thumb - get whatever tank you can and use that one.
unless ur asking the question cause you plan on starting one of these classes, in which case its down to personal preference, which you would be better off deciding on ur own.
unless ur asking the question cause you plan on starting one of these classes, in which case its down to personal preference, which you would be better off deciding on ur own.
What many people seem to forget or just plain not know is that pally Lull is useless on any monster over 55. So pretty much after 61 pally pulling goes down the tubes. Can still root pull but that is a bit risky.
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