There have been a number of post concernig how folks should play their Cleric. Also more and more in game their are folks who get all upset and even leave a group unless things are done in a certain way. Also in LDoN I get players who are below lvl 63 who complaine if the group lvl is such that we get less than the maximun points.
First and formost I want to say EQ is a game. The purpose of any game is to have fun. Games are also about having fun with others.
Personlly I would much rather play with a "Battle Cleric" who is fun than some supper dude who can dubble our kill rate, but is a real jerk. I would rather sit and chill while the cleic meds than lission to someone tell everyone how they should be playing.
I would rather die because the cleric went oom than recive the tells of a group member who don't like the way someone is playing.
Now granted there are people out there who don't play as well as others. And there are people out there who maybe should be playing a diffrent class. But these people are much better than those who know it all and are so uptight that they make the whole group misrable.
Remember it is a game, and if you can't adjust your playing style to acomadate someone who is playing diffrently than what you are used to..... well then maybe you are not as uber as you thought...
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If everyone had this kind of attitude then nobody would get higher than lvl 60, you dont get invited to high level groups with an attitude like "ill play how i want to play" guild raids, open raids, groups and addys all rely on people knowing their job and doing it, you may say this is no fun, and that people take it too seriously, but if people dont play like this then there is no way a group could function in a high teir plane.
people shouldnt have to, why should we all change our gamplay because the cleric deems it "not fun" to heal the tanks, if the warrior said "ahh actually im going to sit in the corner and practice tailoring" and left the cleric to tank the group would die, groups depend on everyone doin what they should.
if you dont understand why this is true, maybe you dont understand whether or not people are as uber they thought...
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if you can't adjust your playing style to acomadate someone who is playing diffrently than what you are used to..... well then maybe you are not as uber as you thought
people shouldnt have to, why should we all change our gamplay because the cleric deems it "not fun" to heal the tanks, if the warrior said "ahh actually im going to sit in the corner and practice tailoring" and left the cleric to tank the group would die, groups depend on everyone doin what they should.
if you dont understand why this is true, maybe you dont understand whether or not people are as uber they thought...
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Also in LDoN I get players who are below lvl 63 who complaine if the group lvl is such that we get less than the maximun points.
thats exactly the reason why I prefer to either solo or do normal grouping (ok, granted, with guildies I do the LDoN too, but only because we know each other). not that I am lvl 63 yet, beware
less stress (and less agression) when grouping e.g. in splitpaw or unrest as compared to LDoN, where people tend to kill for their friggin adventure points or rating... and get pi**** off, when something goes wrong...
and in regards to the battle cleric: when playing with my wizzi I also sometimes ask, if i can melee (and the cleric heals me, cause I even want to gain aggro so my defense skills go up). as long as the group is ok with it...
everybody what he wants, but slower (and entertaining) gameplay- especially when chatting and having a laugh while meddin - is MY favourite.
Still a noob. :-P
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Characters on Drinal, Povar, EMarr, Firiona Vie.
Never having had any too to 60, I'm not an expert, but of course I have been in a fair number of groups as a Cleric.
I think the best groups have mebers who know thier, and thier groupmates strengths and weaknesses, and sucess seems to flow easier.
Sometimes theres a member who knows more than others and members seem to look to them for guidance.
But if someone was going to try and play outside thier "role", I'd sure want to know it ahead of time, not in the middle of a hot fight with 10% mana.
One just has to be sensitive to the group as a whole. And yes it is a game, but some people take thier $$ a lot more seriously than others. And most know mistakes are human, not Elven, hehe.
I think the best groups have mebers who know thier, and thier groupmates strengths and weaknesses, and sucess seems to flow easier.
Sometimes theres a member who knows more than others and members seem to look to them for guidance.
But if someone was going to try and play outside thier "role", I'd sure want to know it ahead of time, not in the middle of a hot fight with 10% mana.
One just has to be sensitive to the group as a whole. And yes it is a game, but some people take thier $$ a lot more seriously than others. And most know mistakes are human, not Elven, hehe.
I think you should see all of this a bit within certain limits.
In the other thread (I admit I read it only partially) someone mentioned that there's a place and time for a cleric to tank, but not every time or situation that is appropriate.
In a single group, I don't see why a meleeing cleric necessarily needs to be a problem. As long as this person knows his class, responsibilities and knows when to step back and start meditating.
Example: If your group consists of a Cleric, Necromancer, Warrior, Shaman, Monk, Beastlord... and the group is equipped with KEI, not fighting ultra tough stuff (so not in the Planes of Power where the mobs hit too hard) - it's quite likely that the cleric has more mana than they really need. Shaman slows the mobs, even beastlord can do this quite well, DPS is not that bad, and warrior can take quite a chunk of damage (if it's a well equipped one of course) before he needs a CH. If the cleric would just sit down all the time the mana pool would want to overflow. So the cleric can choose to nuke, or melee a bit. Naturally, after a rebuffing phase, they may want to sit down again to regain mana faster, or if there are adds it may cause a bit extra meditation time.
On raids, however, where there's a CHC and all... No, I think that would not be the time and place for a cleric to join the melees.
A nice fact is, that at level 56 Clerics can summon a nice hammer (with good DEX (helps proccing), fair dmg/delay and a DD proc). In addition they get Yaulp V at that same level (which ONLY works when they stand), including a little mana regeneration. Does not match the mana regen you have when meditating, but it does help. As a side note: the buff immediately disappears when the cleric sits down, so can't be used to boost the manaregen during medding.
But as many things within the cleric's job, it takes estimation, knowing responsibilities, and predicting how much mana you need. If you are unsure, it may be better to sit down and see how things go first, before you know whether a bit of mob whacking will hurt or not.
In the other thread (I admit I read it only partially) someone mentioned that there's a place and time for a cleric to tank, but not every time or situation that is appropriate.
In a single group, I don't see why a meleeing cleric necessarily needs to be a problem. As long as this person knows his class, responsibilities and knows when to step back and start meditating.
Example: If your group consists of a Cleric, Necromancer, Warrior, Shaman, Monk, Beastlord... and the group is equipped with KEI, not fighting ultra tough stuff (so not in the Planes of Power where the mobs hit too hard) - it's quite likely that the cleric has more mana than they really need. Shaman slows the mobs, even beastlord can do this quite well, DPS is not that bad, and warrior can take quite a chunk of damage (if it's a well equipped one of course) before he needs a CH. If the cleric would just sit down all the time the mana pool would want to overflow. So the cleric can choose to nuke, or melee a bit. Naturally, after a rebuffing phase, they may want to sit down again to regain mana faster, or if there are adds it may cause a bit extra meditation time.
On raids, however, where there's a CHC and all... No, I think that would not be the time and place for a cleric to join the melees.
A nice fact is, that at level 56 Clerics can summon a nice hammer (with good DEX (helps proccing), fair dmg/delay and a DD proc). In addition they get Yaulp V at that same level (which ONLY works when they stand), including a little mana regeneration. Does not match the mana regen you have when meditating, but it does help. As a side note: the buff immediately disappears when the cleric sits down, so can't be used to boost the manaregen during medding.
But as many things within the cleric's job, it takes estimation, knowing responsibilities, and predicting how much mana you need. If you are unsure, it may be better to sit down and see how things go first, before you know whether a bit of mob whacking will hurt or not.
I enjoy playing the game at a certain level of competence. That is what is fun for me. My days of bumblef*cking around with people who can't be bothered to know the basics of their own class are long, long gone, and good riddance.
Yes, it is a game, and I choose not to waste my play time (within the context of the game, yes I understand that it's all wasting time) gritting my teeth and tolerating bad players. To each her own, I suppose.
Yes, it is a game, and I choose not to waste my play time (within the context of the game, yes I understand that it's all wasting time) gritting my teeth and tolerating bad players. To each her own, I suppose.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
You are suffering from the fallacy that your fun = my fun.
I think there is enormous satisfaction in doing something difficult and succeeding. Some people play for this satisfaction.
Some people play because they like the background and scenery of an enormous virtual-world chatroom as a setting for their roleplay, foreplay or just play.
Some people play somewhere in between the extremes and enjoy a challenge but also enjoy just hanging about with friends.
None of these is the "right" way to play, all are valid. The only problem is that they mix like oil and water. Put the guy who likes a hard challenge and doing things "just so" and the guy who just goofs off in a group together and sparks fly.
Add to this that all ages and abilities play this game and you will find widely different levels of competence.
If I am of the first sort who like to defeat difficult challenges (whether it is Emperor Crush at 14 or Vindi at 55) then I am better off in a group of like-minded people.
If I have a more casual attitude then I am better off with people who share that attitude.
Since people post here for the "received wisdom" on things it tends towards the more technical aspects and rapidly gets into mana ratios etc. Allakhazam doesn't have a roleplaying forum (apart from OOT) for example, players of that ilk seek their satisfaction elsewhere.
At the end of the day however there is one truth about EQ. Most of the time dying isn't a lot of fun. (I know there are exceptions and more than once I have literally died laughing). This means that people who stray too far from the norms tend to get avoided. Playing time is limited and spending it getting nowhere because of someone who wants to play their class in a way it wasn't intended is not what most people pay their subs for.
Playing FV where there are strange animals like "fallen" paladins who use no spells and people whose roleplay backstory prevents them grouping with left-handed red-haired wood-elves with an "R" in their name, you soon learn how you fit into the picture.
I think there is enormous satisfaction in doing something difficult and succeeding. Some people play for this satisfaction.
Some people play because they like the background and scenery of an enormous virtual-world chatroom as a setting for their roleplay, foreplay or just play.
Some people play somewhere in between the extremes and enjoy a challenge but also enjoy just hanging about with friends.
None of these is the "right" way to play, all are valid. The only problem is that they mix like oil and water. Put the guy who likes a hard challenge and doing things "just so" and the guy who just goofs off in a group together and sparks fly.
Add to this that all ages and abilities play this game and you will find widely different levels of competence.
If I am of the first sort who like to defeat difficult challenges (whether it is Emperor Crush at 14 or Vindi at 55) then I am better off in a group of like-minded people.
If I have a more casual attitude then I am better off with people who share that attitude.
Since people post here for the "received wisdom" on things it tends towards the more technical aspects and rapidly gets into mana ratios etc. Allakhazam doesn't have a roleplaying forum (apart from OOT) for example, players of that ilk seek their satisfaction elsewhere.
At the end of the day however there is one truth about EQ. Most of the time dying isn't a lot of fun. (I know there are exceptions and more than once I have literally died laughing). This means that people who stray too far from the norms tend to get avoided. Playing time is limited and spending it getting nowhere because of someone who wants to play their class in a way it wasn't intended is not what most people pay their subs for.
Playing FV where there are strange animals like "fallen" paladins who use no spells and people whose roleplay backstory prevents them grouping with left-handed red-haired wood-elves with an "R" in their name, you soon learn how you fit into the picture.
Wherever I go - there I am.
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Allakhazam doesn't have a roleplaying forum (apart from OOT) for example, players of that ilk seek their satisfaction elsewhere.
Just thought I would add, lest anyone get the misconception that the OOT side is for "roleplaying" in a traditional sense, that the only roleplaying that goes on over there is someone filling the role of a leftist prick, someone else playing the role of a right leaning ***, someone else playing the role of a **** disturbing ******* someone else playing the role of l337 haxx0r, and a host of supporting cast members all involved in various flame fests and vast all encompassing circle jerks. If that sounds like fun to you, by all means, come on over. If you are looking for dragon tales and epic retelling of battle stories, maybe something else is for you.
If you want roleplaying stories and background go looking for user journals under Login/Admin.
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It's a game Right?
Yes and no, yes it is a game but it is also a hobby and people get real pissed when people ***** around with thier hobby.
That said my pet hate is the 'oh oh your not 63 i won't group with you i would rather sit for 2 hours with my thumb up my butt than lose 20 LDoN points' crowd.
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I would rather die because the cleric went oom than recive the tells of a group member who don't like the way someone is playing.
Of the published 300,000+ people who play EQ i think you are probably the only one with that attitude.
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Remember it is a game, and if you can't adjust your playing style to acomadate someone who is playing diffrently than what you are used to..... well then maybe you are not as uber as you thought...
If i choose a cleric that keeps the group alive over one that ***** around and gets my group killed, then i think that makes me smart. And for your infomation there is a huge difference between Uber and competent.
Edited, Wed Mar 17 13:30:04 2004 by tarv
Hmmm...Yes it is only a game. But this is a game I pay money for on a monthly basis and even more to the point, I invest a lot of valuable time in. I am not on all day and all night...I have a job and family and the Lakers to watch. But even if I were on all day and all night I would feel the same.
I will also say that my comments here in the forum about how things should be done are phrased as such because it is a forum for just that kind of discussion. Do not mistake the forum banter to how we play our characters.
In game I am courteous and forgiving. Make no mistake, my son and I might be saying to each other in RL "this guy is a jerk" but we are not saying it to his face and we are certainly not treating him badly.
But when I log in on the weeknights to play my one adventure for the night, I do not want to get into a group that is going to be a headache. I want fun people to play with. I do not mind a challenge and so having someone try new things with their class can be ok if they know what they are doing. My time in game is too valuable to waste while some guy who does not understand his class in the first place tries to ex[and his lack of knowledge! And while it is only a game, from where I sit it is my game to be played the way I like. It is your game to be played the way you like. If those ways are different then we should not play together.
The playing of my cleric may be mechanical at times...when I med when I heal when I root, etc is pretty well defined by now. But my social play is far from scripted. That is where I derive the fun...playing in a group should be fun period...but that does not mean that when I am bored I turn into a tank...when I am bored I chat. :-)
I will also say that my comments here in the forum about how things should be done are phrased as such because it is a forum for just that kind of discussion. Do not mistake the forum banter to how we play our characters.
In game I am courteous and forgiving. Make no mistake, my son and I might be saying to each other in RL "this guy is a jerk" but we are not saying it to his face and we are certainly not treating him badly.
But when I log in on the weeknights to play my one adventure for the night, I do not want to get into a group that is going to be a headache. I want fun people to play with. I do not mind a challenge and so having someone try new things with their class can be ok if they know what they are doing. My time in game is too valuable to waste while some guy who does not understand his class in the first place tries to ex[and his lack of knowledge! And while it is only a game, from where I sit it is my game to be played the way I like. It is your game to be played the way you like. If those ways are different then we should not play together.
The playing of my cleric may be mechanical at times...when I med when I heal when I root, etc is pretty well defined by now. But my social play is far from scripted. That is where I derive the fun...playing in a group should be fun period...but that does not mean that when I am bored I turn into a tank...when I am bored I chat. :-)
Forgot to say...I am not all about the XP. I will seldom leave a group because of XP...except on the cusp of a spell level where my entire focus is hitting the\ose new spells. But even then I do not leave them as if it is their fault. I just say, "Guys, I am gonna go where I can get more XP until I get my spell lefvel...if it is quick I will be back".
But it is the friendship and the action that I thrive on. Not the XP...Getting a good group in a good XP situation is, of course, a good thing, but not the only thing!
As for LDON, if they are within 7 that is all I care about. I do not exclude because of anything...including class...havign an odd class mix can add an interesting challenge to the group.
But it is the friendship and the action that I thrive on. Not the XP...Getting a good group in a good XP situation is, of course, a good thing, but not the only thing!
As for LDON, if they are within 7 that is all I care about. I do not exclude because of anything...including class...havign an odd class mix can add an interesting challenge to the group.
Scholar
21 posts
I think part of the problem with this debate is that you can't definitively say how a cleric should behave in a group. That's a rediculous assumption. I've never been in two pickup groups that were the same.
Can a group be successful with a cleric nuking?
Sure
Can a group be successful with a cleric meleeing?
Sure
Can a group be successful with a cleric sitting in the corner waiting for someone to heal?
Sure
If you want to play around with your class, feel free. But when it causes MY death, it becomes a problem. I think that is a fair statement, and probably the closest I can come to expressing my thoughts on the issue.
-Soze
Can a group be successful with a cleric nuking?
Sure
Can a group be successful with a cleric meleeing?
Sure
Can a group be successful with a cleric sitting in the corner waiting for someone to heal?
Sure
If you want to play around with your class, feel free. But when it causes MY death, it becomes a problem. I think that is a fair statement, and probably the closest I can come to expressing my thoughts on the issue.
-Soze
I completely agree with WarriorJoe on this. There are too many people out there that take it Way too seriously. If you're getting angry because someone won't play excactly as you feel they should, then maybe an online game like EQ isn't for you. The rest of us would actually rather you leave the group, than have to listen to the constant annoying blabber.
[quote if the warrior said "ahh actually im going to sit in the corner and practice tailoring" and left the cleric to tank the group would die, groups depend on everyone doin what they should.]
Yes, let's not lose our heads. I think it's obvious that someone wouldn't do this in a group. I think we're really reaching a bit with this one.
Nevertheless, if someone comments on something because they think it may be a better strategy, I always take into consideration although their idea may not be worth a s#$t. When it gets annoying is when you got some clown who Thinks their too good for the rest of us, shouting like a director at several members of the group instead of worrying about what they really should be doing themselves. Ah, and here's a tip: telling a group member to do something repeatadly over and over when they've already done it or tried it is a waste of your time and mine. you've never had a spell fizzle or get blinded? yeah, sure...
[quote if the warrior said "ahh actually im going to sit in the corner and practice tailoring" and left the cleric to tank the group would die, groups depend on everyone doin what they should.]
Yes, let's not lose our heads. I think it's obvious that someone wouldn't do this in a group. I think we're really reaching a bit with this one.
Nevertheless, if someone comments on something because they think it may be a better strategy, I always take into consideration although their idea may not be worth a s#$t. When it gets annoying is when you got some clown who Thinks their too good for the rest of us, shouting like a director at several members of the group instead of worrying about what they really should be doing themselves. Ah, and here's a tip: telling a group member to do something repeatadly over and over when they've already done it or tried it is a waste of your time and mine. you've never had a spell fizzle or get blinded? yeah, sure...
Scholar
20 posts
Just to throw my 2cp in...
I agree completely with WarriorJoe. It is a game. Even if you call it a hobby, who continues a hobby when it isn't fun anymore? If that is the case, why do we complain soooo much? EQ is like life, in that we deal with REAL people everyday! I meet idiots/mediocre/great people all the time (as do most of us).
How do I deal with them in RL (in EQ)?
The great people, I try to associate with more. (goes on friend list)
The mediocre people, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they get better. (don't have a problem with and will probably group with again in future)
The idiots...I just smile at them, turn around and run in the other direction :) (hmm..I turn and run in the other direction with a SoW if possible or even better gate to some zone they can't find me in)
Why do we expect the game to be so much different? I think at times we forget, this isn't a "nice" game where interaction outcomes are preprogrammed (unless talking with a NPC) and we have to be prepared to deal with those "others" even if we are the "idiots" at the time (not like that EVER happens). Part of the fun if you ask me!
The question came up - "Why do we have to change our playing style because others are playing differently?" You don't have to. Sure, you may get killed because of it, but no one is forcing you. Not everyone plays the same, deal with it. If you can't, put a tag in your LFG that says "don't ask me to group if you don't know your class" (seen it done before). Kinda boring if you ask me, because then you are grouping with the same group or type of group. Bleh! There are times I want something different.
I love EQ because of the diversity. It forces us to rethink our roles and expand our horizons. I've had some "perfect" groups and they were awful. I've had the 4 pallies, mage and wizzy and had a blast (no pun intented). I've found those "ideal" situations to be too rigid and if something gets out of our comfort range even a bit, we can't adapt to our new environment.
Again -- just my 2cp (might have change coming back on this one). Hope we can still just have some fun and to those real idiots/jerks...we can still train them every once in a while and laugh right?
I agree completely with WarriorJoe. It is a game. Even if you call it a hobby, who continues a hobby when it isn't fun anymore? If that is the case, why do we complain soooo much? EQ is like life, in that we deal with REAL people everyday! I meet idiots/mediocre/great people all the time (as do most of us).
How do I deal with them in RL (in EQ)?
The great people, I try to associate with more. (goes on friend list)
The mediocre people, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they get better. (don't have a problem with and will probably group with again in future)
The idiots...I just smile at them, turn around and run in the other direction :) (hmm..I turn and run in the other direction with a SoW if possible or even better gate to some zone they can't find me in)
Why do we expect the game to be so much different? I think at times we forget, this isn't a "nice" game where interaction outcomes are preprogrammed (unless talking with a NPC) and we have to be prepared to deal with those "others" even if we are the "idiots" at the time (not like that EVER happens). Part of the fun if you ask me!
The question came up - "Why do we have to change our playing style because others are playing differently?" You don't have to. Sure, you may get killed because of it, but no one is forcing you. Not everyone plays the same, deal with it. If you can't, put a tag in your LFG that says "don't ask me to group if you don't know your class" (seen it done before). Kinda boring if you ask me, because then you are grouping with the same group or type of group. Bleh! There are times I want something different.
I love EQ because of the diversity. It forces us to rethink our roles and expand our horizons. I've had some "perfect" groups and they were awful. I've had the 4 pallies, mage and wizzy and had a blast (no pun intented). I've found those "ideal" situations to be too rigid and if something gets out of our comfort range even a bit, we can't adapt to our new environment.
Again -- just my 2cp (might have change coming back on this one). Hope we can still just have some fun and to those real idiots/jerks...we can still train them every once in a while and laugh right?
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It is a game. Even if you call it a hobby, who continues a hobby when it isn't fun anymore? If that is the case, why do we complain soooo much? EQ is like life, in that we deal with REAL people everyday! I meet idiots/mediocre/great people all the time (as do most of us).
I think the point is that people get annoyed at idiot that STOP thier hobby being fun either by idiotic play or rudeness.
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Again -- just my 2cp (might have change coming back on this one). Hope we can still just have some fun and to those real idiots/jerks...we can still train them every once in a while and laugh right?
After the nicey nicey post you show your true colours, you are probably the problem not the solution.
Sure its a game.
What a lot of people fail to realise though is that it is a serious game.
EQ is the "major league" of the game world.
To most long term players its like treading the path to the superbowl.
What a lot of people fail to realise though is that it is a serious game.
EQ is the "major league" of the game world.
To most long term players its like treading the path to the superbowl.
Request to redirect Your Honer.
First there is a big differance between a person being compatent at playing their class and that same person playing their class in what you believe to be the optimun manner. My post is about diffrent play styles, not incompentend players.
As an example when I group with my shaman, I like to melee while I cany. On occasion there is a person or two in the groups who take exception to my shaman meleeing. They tell me my job is to slow the mob and send in my pet and keep them buffed. I even get accuded of gaining agro, since they percive the drop in my hit ponts is do to being hit and not from casting canny.
To me it is more effectnt to melee while i canny, since i just might get that big blast to proc of my orb. In the end I have more mana, do a bit of dammage and still fulfill my requried role in the group. The problem isn't my melee, the problem is the folks that have a diffrent concept of how the shaman should behave in a group,and start to ***** if i'm playing diffrently. They believe that if one behaves diffrently it is costing them something, less exp, higher risk of death etc....Therefor sicne they believe that my actions is costing them something they start sending tell and making statemsnts etc. In the end it is my belife that this is more disruptive to the group than the person playing in an unorthdox style. And it is this ********* more than the unorthdox playing style that runis the game for me. And i'm much less likly to invite a person who ******* again than the person who plays in a unothodox style, even if that style slows exp a bit.
Satification of doing Something Difficult
In the end EQ is not a skill game. It is a game based on time. the more time you spend the more powerfull you become. Some may gain experance faster, but this has more to do with the group they are in and the zone the group is in than the skill of the players in the group.
Now it is true that I've never tanked a elemental boss, but I have tanked enough high end mobs to know that the skill lvl of most people on the raid has very little to do with the success of the raid. Yes you need clerics that can handle a healing rotation, and yes you need a tank who can stand up to the mob long enough for the heals to land, after that you need the right resists and enough compent secondary healer, and the dps. So it is all about getting the right people, and knowing what classes are required to make the kill than the skills of the majority of the group members.
Finally odds are that if you end up in a group with someone who dosent play in what you feel is the optimun manor, odds are you are not on a raid, more likly than not you have just accepted an invite to a pick up group. If one or more members of that group is playing in a way you consider to be less than optimun, it is my belife you should adjust your play style to theirs.
Why
1. If you feel that the way someone else is playing is less than optimun and it is thus impacting the group and costing you something, odds are they are more important to the group than you are.
2. For the most part EQ is a social game, and in the long run you will get further faster if you learn how to be a good group member and not try an inpose your concept on how the game should be played on others.
3. It is completly possible that they know more about playing their class more than you do.
Once again this post is not about compatancy, it is about folks ******** because someone plays their class in a way that the ******* feels is less than optimun.
It is about enjoying the game and not being so uptight, that you make yourslfe and the rest of the group members misable, when you are forced outside your confert zone.
First there is a big differance between a person being compatent at playing their class and that same person playing their class in what you believe to be the optimun manner. My post is about diffrent play styles, not incompentend players.
As an example when I group with my shaman, I like to melee while I cany. On occasion there is a person or two in the groups who take exception to my shaman meleeing. They tell me my job is to slow the mob and send in my pet and keep them buffed. I even get accuded of gaining agro, since they percive the drop in my hit ponts is do to being hit and not from casting canny.
To me it is more effectnt to melee while i canny, since i just might get that big blast to proc of my orb. In the end I have more mana, do a bit of dammage and still fulfill my requried role in the group. The problem isn't my melee, the problem is the folks that have a diffrent concept of how the shaman should behave in a group,and start to ***** if i'm playing diffrently. They believe that if one behaves diffrently it is costing them something, less exp, higher risk of death etc....Therefor sicne they believe that my actions is costing them something they start sending tell and making statemsnts etc. In the end it is my belife that this is more disruptive to the group than the person playing in an unorthdox style. And it is this ********* more than the unorthdox playing style that runis the game for me. And i'm much less likly to invite a person who ******* again than the person who plays in a unothodox style, even if that style slows exp a bit.
Satification of doing Something Difficult
In the end EQ is not a skill game. It is a game based on time. the more time you spend the more powerfull you become. Some may gain experance faster, but this has more to do with the group they are in and the zone the group is in than the skill of the players in the group.
Now it is true that I've never tanked a elemental boss, but I have tanked enough high end mobs to know that the skill lvl of most people on the raid has very little to do with the success of the raid. Yes you need clerics that can handle a healing rotation, and yes you need a tank who can stand up to the mob long enough for the heals to land, after that you need the right resists and enough compent secondary healer, and the dps. So it is all about getting the right people, and knowing what classes are required to make the kill than the skills of the majority of the group members.
Finally odds are that if you end up in a group with someone who dosent play in what you feel is the optimun manor, odds are you are not on a raid, more likly than not you have just accepted an invite to a pick up group. If one or more members of that group is playing in a way you consider to be less than optimun, it is my belife you should adjust your play style to theirs.
Why
1. If you feel that the way someone else is playing is less than optimun and it is thus impacting the group and costing you something, odds are they are more important to the group than you are.
2. For the most part EQ is a social game, and in the long run you will get further faster if you learn how to be a good group member and not try an inpose your concept on how the game should be played on others.
3. It is completly possible that they know more about playing their class more than you do.
Once again this post is not about compatancy, it is about folks ******** because someone plays their class in a way that the ******* feels is less than optimun.
It is about enjoying the game and not being so uptight, that you make yourslfe and the rest of the group members misable, when you are forced outside your confert zone.
I just love it when you create sock puppets to agree with yourself, that's so cute.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
/shrug
It depends on what you mean by "******** if the group is less then optimum".
I have no problem with people with different playstyles. However, there are certain truths that are pretty common, no matter what the playstyle.
If you are in a group (which all your initial examples were), then the next question is: Why are you in a group? What's the point of a group? This goes *double* for pickup group.
People form groups (especially pickup group), for just two reasons: Exp and loot. You can chat with people without being grouped with them. If you actually are in a group, and move to an area in which you can kill mobs, then odds are that everyone has the same goals: Gain exp and loot.
That would seem obvious. Clearly then, if our goal is to gain exp and loot, it would make sense to do so in a manner that is most efficient (or at least not inefficient). So yeah. If someone is doing something I think is slowing our kill rate down, I'll mention it. I'll tell that chain casting ranger that the tiny bit of extra damage he may or may not be doing is really not countering the fact that I have to spend 5 times as much mana as MT keeping agro off of him (and the ping pong is literally doubling the amount of healing the group is needing). That's not just a different playstyle. That's dumb. In exactly the way that you could throw the ball to 2nd base when you've got a runner heading to first, but that would also be dumb.
See how that is? Games are fun, but they also have rules. They often also have some kind of competition. You can have lots of fun playing a game without also playing poorly (or just stupidly).
Sure. Some folks will be more **** about some things then others. That's just one of the things you have to deal with in a multi-player environment. However, I think complaining because some people actually want to achieve the objectives they've set for themselve in the game is silly. If you don't want to deal with people concerned about maximizing exp gain, then by all means, don't join an exp group. It's really that simple. You can sit at the gates of the local city and sing songs and roleplay and do whatever it is that you enjoy. I have no problem with that. But what you are doing is basically insisting that other people should not be concerned about being allowed to do the things they enjoy (ie: gain exp and levels). That's just ludicrous. If you join a group, expect that the group will want to accomplish the things that require joining a group. We can all sit around and tell stories anytime. If we formed a group, there was a reason. And the reason wasn't so we could all just sit back and enjoy the view...
It depends on what you mean by "******** if the group is less then optimum".
I have no problem with people with different playstyles. However, there are certain truths that are pretty common, no matter what the playstyle.
If you are in a group (which all your initial examples were), then the next question is: Why are you in a group? What's the point of a group? This goes *double* for pickup group.
People form groups (especially pickup group), for just two reasons: Exp and loot. You can chat with people without being grouped with them. If you actually are in a group, and move to an area in which you can kill mobs, then odds are that everyone has the same goals: Gain exp and loot.
That would seem obvious. Clearly then, if our goal is to gain exp and loot, it would make sense to do so in a manner that is most efficient (or at least not inefficient). So yeah. If someone is doing something I think is slowing our kill rate down, I'll mention it. I'll tell that chain casting ranger that the tiny bit of extra damage he may or may not be doing is really not countering the fact that I have to spend 5 times as much mana as MT keeping agro off of him (and the ping pong is literally doubling the amount of healing the group is needing). That's not just a different playstyle. That's dumb. In exactly the way that you could throw the ball to 2nd base when you've got a runner heading to first, but that would also be dumb.
See how that is? Games are fun, but they also have rules. They often also have some kind of competition. You can have lots of fun playing a game without also playing poorly (or just stupidly).
Sure. Some folks will be more **** about some things then others. That's just one of the things you have to deal with in a multi-player environment. However, I think complaining because some people actually want to achieve the objectives they've set for themselve in the game is silly. If you don't want to deal with people concerned about maximizing exp gain, then by all means, don't join an exp group. It's really that simple. You can sit at the gates of the local city and sing songs and roleplay and do whatever it is that you enjoy. I have no problem with that. But what you are doing is basically insisting that other people should not be concerned about being allowed to do the things they enjoy (ie: gain exp and levels). That's just ludicrous. If you join a group, expect that the group will want to accomplish the things that require joining a group. We can all sit around and tell stories anytime. If we formed a group, there was a reason. And the reason wasn't so we could all just sit back and enjoy the view...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
WarriorJoe wrote:
2. For the most part EQ is a social game, and in the long run you will get further faster if you learn how to be a good group member and not try an inpose your concept on how the game should be played on others.
Well, no. This is not correct.
EQ is a team game. There is a difference. Yes there is a strong social aspect that most of us enjoy, but the essence of the game is that it is a team game. With the same meaning and inferences as a "team sport".
Because of this there is a major inconsistency in what you say.
"learn how to be a good group member" = learn how to be a good team member. No doubt about it.
But to then say "not try and in(m)pose your concept on (of) how the game should be played on others".
In every "team" based activity or sport there is inherently a team objective.
(There would usually be a team leadership structure and a team strategy as well, but these can be informal and implied or formally directed and is a whole other can of worms).
So even at the most basic level, where several individuals join together to form a group/team with the objective of doing/ahieving "something", there will be a role that needs to be carried out by each team member. (Whether formally defined and dictated by the team leadership, or by accepted convention).
If as a team/group memeber, you step outside the defined/accepted role for your character, you are potentially being counter productive to the group effort.
In any team sport/game/activity, what is important is the success or failure of the team, not the individuals within the team. And the greatest satisfaction for the individual group members comes when the group/team is at its most successful.
So, even if by stepping outside your group/team role you really do deliver increased performance as an individual, but by stepping out of your role in this manner you disrupt the team cohesion, you are being counter productive.
Look at this way, using a very simplified analogy. Suppose you are a super quarterback, capable of throwing the ball from one end of the field to the other in a flash and with pin point accuracy. What would be the point of constantly throwing the ball 15 feet in front of your reciever and then complaining that your reciever runs too slow, each time your pass is missed?
Sure you demonstrate how terrific you are at throwing the ball, but you wouldn't stay a member of the team for long would you?
OK, we all know that there is a vast difference between playing with pick up groups and a regular group of friends. We also know that sometimes, what has become the "agreed convention" is not the best way of doing things. But to use the example at hand, if the widely held convention is that in groups Clerics med and heal and do not melee, when a Cleric joins a group he/she knows what role is expected of him/her. Step outside that role and you are disrupting the group effort.
Certainly, at the time of joining the group you can try to negotiate a different role for yourself, but to spring it on the team with out warning places you in the wrong and invites criticism.
Edited, Wed Mar 17 22:14:28 2004 by Iluien
gbaji wrote:
People form groups (especially pickup group), for just two reasons: Exp and loot. You can chat with people without being grouped with them. If you actually are in a group, and move to an area in which you can kill mobs, then odds are that everyone has the same goals: Gain exp and loot.
Hey Gbaji, there is one aspect of LDoN that neither of us foresaw and that I think is the greatest aspect of the whole expansion/idea.
It has changed the focus of even the humble pick up group from the point you make above, to being one of "winning" the "encounter".
A huge change for the better IMHO!
Yes I realise that the reward for winning is still loot via the point system, but I have no doubt that it is lifting the general quality of player skill and most people really do focus on the win/loss ratio and I'm sure this is what is making many people pay more attention to tactics and skills.
Quote:
From WarriorJoe:
To me it is more effectnt to melee while i canny
To me it is more effectnt to melee while i canny
I think you just proved your level of ignorance. The most efficient form of Cannibalisation is the "canni-dance" that uses it between ticks and catches the meditate as well as the mana from the canni. Standing meleeing while you cannibalise is not as efficient at recovering mana.
Of all the things a shaman can bring to a group melee is not a major one. The group has every right to expect you to recover your mana the most efficient way so you can do the things they invited you for in the first place.
However in stating this you just blew away your own argument. You do this because you consider it "more efficient". Therefore you admit efficiency as a consideration. Your original point was that people should just have fun and ignore efficiency and we were all idiots for criticising them.
The moment you raise efficiency as a consideration you open the way to discussion of relative efficiency and - shock horror - the kind of discussions that go on here.
If you had said you melee'd your shaman because you like to that would have been in keeping with your original assertion but even inadvertently efficieny is a part of your view of EQ.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Quote:
In the end EQ is not a skill game.
How very very wrong you are, so utterly wrong it is beyond the realms of posibility that you could ever reach the point in the game that you could understand a 10th of what Gbaji, Cobra and other are talking about.
Quote:
Yes you need clerics that can handle a healing rotation, and yes you need a tank who can stand up to the mob long enough for the heals to land, after that you need the right resists and enough compent secondary healer, and the dps. So it is all about getting the right people, and knowing what classes are required to make the kill than the skills of the majority of the group members.
Is that not by deffinition skillful? A well played cleric takes skill, a well played bard certainly takes skill and a Pacify pulling Paladin sure as hell takes skill.
Fact. you could take a bunch of players that has played for say 3 months put them in Time level gear and the still couldn't take Vindi since they would not have the base skill required to survive the encounter, the clerics would drop in 30 secs closely followed by the rest of the raid.
Quote:
Once again this post is not about compatancy, it is about folks ******** because someone plays their class in a way that the ******* feels is less than optimun.
The only ******* here is you. The rest of us just want to improve our understanding of the game and become batter at the game we enjoy.
Scholar
20 posts
Changed my mind about any justification.
Edited, Thu Mar 18 11:23:05 2004 by dafur
Edited, Thu Mar 18 11:23:05 2004 by dafur
Ok so here is my opinion....
I think it is a game and should be for fun, if it is not fun maybe you should rethink your hobbies. However yes I have became annoyed also when someone is not fulfilling their 'job'. But seeing as how I play a druid my job tends to change from group to group. I hate being primary healer, im level 48 and heal for 300pts its about worthless when you have a tank with 3k+ hps. So I like to melee a bit and keep my skill levels up as well as nuke too, this tends to be a problem with certain groups. I just do what is asked of me and if it doesn't suit me then after the group is over I don't join it again, or I request that we search for a healer. Why is it for LDON I am always stuck healing? Is there a shortage of clerics at my current level? Maybe I am playing the wrong class but I like druids cause we can melee (although pathetically) as well as nuke and back up heal when necessary. But I always try to keep the game light and fun this way there are not to many disappointments. :)
I think it is a game and should be for fun, if it is not fun maybe you should rethink your hobbies. However yes I have became annoyed also when someone is not fulfilling their 'job'. But seeing as how I play a druid my job tends to change from group to group. I hate being primary healer, im level 48 and heal for 300pts its about worthless when you have a tank with 3k+ hps. So I like to melee a bit and keep my skill levels up as well as nuke too, this tends to be a problem with certain groups. I just do what is asked of me and if it doesn't suit me then after the group is over I don't join it again, or I request that we search for a healer. Why is it for LDON I am always stuck healing? Is there a shortage of clerics at my current level? Maybe I am playing the wrong class but I like druids cause we can melee (although pathetically) as well as nuke and back up heal when necessary. But I always try to keep the game light and fun this way there are not to many disappointments. :)
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