Ok curious about your thoughts on this:
Joolz, on usenet, started a thread about the unbalanced Berzerker Epic. Basicly putting all epic weapons in a list just to see how they compair. I have to be in agreement that the Berzerker epic is over powered compaired to previous epics, BUT (you knew there was one), it does seem to be on par with the present weapon base within the game.
I personaly would like to see many of the melee epic's modified or brought up to date if you will. How many 55+ characters have bagged their epics for better weapons... heck, even dropable weapons.
Here is the list, all of the epics are listed, but we are more specificly looking at the melee epic weapons.
Ok, I am copy and pasting from Usenet alt.games.everquest
---------------------------------------
Kerasian Axe of Ire
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 37
DMG: 46 Dmg Bonus: 39 AC: 5
STR: +15 DEX: +15 STA: +20 HP: +125 ENDUR: +100
SV FIRE: +8 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +7 SV POISON: +10
Attack: +40
Haste: +40%
Effect: Rage of Keras (Worn)
WT: 6.0 Size: TINY
Class: BER
Race: BAR DWF TRL OGR VAH
Slot 1, Type 4
================================================================
Fiery Defender
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 35 Delay: 40
Ratio: 1.142 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 42 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 140
AC: +15 Str: +20 Sta: +10 Wis: +15 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +70 Mana: +30
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Paladin
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 4
================================================================
Claw of the Savage Spirit (Primary)
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.3 Size: SMALL
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 13 Delay: 22
Ratio: 1.692 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 88
Str: +5 Wis: +15 Agi: +10 Fire Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +5 Magic Resist: +10
Poison Resist: +5 HP: +50
Weapon Skill: Hand to Hand
Classes: Beastlord
Races: Vah Shir Iksar Ogre Troll Barbarian
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Sha's Vengeance
Type: Combat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
Claw of the Savage Spirit (Secondary)
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.4 Size: SMALL
Slot: SECONDARY
Damage: 13 Delay: 22
Ratio: 1.692 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 88
Offhand Efficiency: 36
Str: +5 Dex: +10 Sta: +15 Fire Resist: +5 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +5
Poison Resist: +5 HP: +125
Weapon Skill: Hand to Hand
Classes: Beastlord
Races: Vah Shir Iksar Ogre Troll Barbarian
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Fury of the Vah Shir
Type: Worn
==============================================================
Jagged Blade of War
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 6.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 36 Delay: 41
Ratio: 1.138 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 42 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 139
Str: +20 Dex: +15 Sta: +15 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist:+10 Magic Resist: +10
Poison Resist: +10 HP: +100
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Warrior
Races: All Races
Effect: Rage of Zek
Type: Combat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------
Blade of Tactics
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 2.5 Size: SMALL
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 14 Delay: 24
Ratio: 1.714 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 85
Offhand Efficiency: 36
Str: +10 Dex: +15 Fire Resist: +5 Disease Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +5 Magic
Resist: +5 Poison Resist: +5 HP: +50
Weapon Skill: One Hand Slash
Classes: Warrior
Races: All Races
Effect: Rage of Tallon
Type: Worn
Level for Effect: 50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
Blade of Strategy
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 2.5 Size: SMALL
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 14 Delay: 24
Ratio: 1.714 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 85
Offhand Efficiency: 36
Str: +10 Sta: +15 Fire Resist: +5 Disease Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +5 Magic
Resist: +5 Poison Resist: +5 HP: +50
Weapon Skill: One Hand Slash
Classes: Warrior
Races: All Races
Effect: Rage of Vallon
Type: Combat
==============================================================
Swiftwind
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Skill: 1H Slashing Atk Delay: 21
DMG: 13
STR: +15 DEX: +5 STA: +10 HP: +50
SV FIRE: +5 SV DISEASE: +5 SV COLD: +5 SV MAGIC: +5
SV POISON: +5
Effect: Swift Spirit
WT: 2.0
Class: RNG
Race: HFL HUM ELF HEF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Earthcaller
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Skill: 1H Slashing Atk Delay: 24
DMG: 14
STR: +15 DEX: +5 STA: +10 HP: +50
SV FIRE: +5 SV DISEASE: +5 SV COLD: +5 SV MAGIC: +5
SV POISON: +5
Effect: Earthcall
WT: 2.0
Class: RNG
Race: HFL HUM ELF HEF
========================================================
Singing Short Sword
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 2.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 16 Delay: 26
Ratio: 1.625 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 86
Offhand Efficiency: 38
Str: +15 Dex: +10 Sta: +5 Cha: +20 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +100
Weapon Skill: One Hand Slash
Classes: Bard
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Dance of the Blade
Type: Combat
========================================================
Celestial Fists
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: HANDS
AC: +15 Str: +20 Dex: +10 Sta: +10 Agi: +10 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +100
Classes: Monk
Races: Iksar Human
Slot 1: Type 7
Effect: Celestial Tranquility
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
Level for Effect: 50
==================================================================
Innoruuk's Curse
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 5.0 Size: SMALL
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 40 Delay: 45
Ratio: 1.125 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 47 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 141
Str: +20 Dex: +15 Int: +15 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +15
Poison Resist: +5 HP: +60 Mana: +40
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Shadowknight
Races: Iksar Ogre Troll Gnome Dark Elf Erudite Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Soul Consumption
Type: Combat
=======================================================================
Ragebringer
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 2.5 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 15 Delay: 25
Ratio: 1.666 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 86
Offhand Efficiency: 37
Str: +20 Dex: +10 Sta: +10 Agi: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +20
Poison Resist: +20 HP: +100
Weapon Skill: Piercing
Classes: Rogue
Races: Vah Shir Dwarf Gnome Dark Elf Barbarian Halfling Wood Elf Half Elf Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Seething Fury
Type: Worn
================================================================
Nature Walkers Scimitar
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 3.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 20 Delay: 30
Ratio: 1.5 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Str: +15 Sta: +15 Wis: +20 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist:+10 Magic Resist: +10
Poison Resist: +10 HP: +10 Mana: +90
Weapon Skill: One Hand Slash
Classes: Druid
Races: Halfling Wood Elf Half Elf Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Wrath of Nature
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
Level for Effect: 50
================================================================
Spear of Fate
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 20 Delay: 30
Ratio: 1.5 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 88
Offhand Efficiency: 41
Str: +10 Dex: +10 Sta: +10 Wis: +20 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +30 Mana: +70
Weapon Skill: Piercing
Classes: Shaman
Races: Froglok Vah Shir Iksar Ogre Troll Barbarian
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Curse of the Spirits
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
====================================================================
Water Sprinkler of Nem Ankh
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 8.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY SECONDARY
Damage: 20 Delay: 32
Ratio: 1.6 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 82
Offhand Efficiency: 38
Sta: +10 Cha: +15 Wis: +25 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist:+10 Magic Resist: +10
Poison Resist: +10 Mana: +100
Weapon Skill: One Hand Blunt
Classes: Cleric
Races: Froglok Dwarf Gnome Dark Elf Erudite Halfling High Elf Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Reviviscence
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
==============================================================
Staff of the Serpent
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 1.0 Size: LARGE
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 11 Delay: 24
Ratio: 2.181 Excellent
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Str: +5 Sta: +10 Cha: +15 Int: +20 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +40 Mana: +60
Weapon Skill: One Hand Blunt
Classes: Enchanter
Races: Gnome Dark Elf Erudite High Elf Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Speed of the Shissar
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
===========================================================
Orb of Mastery
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP SUMMONED
Weight: 1.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 20 Delay: 30
Ratio: 1.5 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Str: +15 Dex: +5 Sta: +10 Int: +20 Fire Resist: +20 Cold Resist: +20 Magic
Resist: +10 Mana: +100
Weapon Skill: One Hand Blunt
Classes: Magician
Races: Gnome Dark Elf Erudite High Elf Human
Effect: Manifest Elements
Type: Triggered
================================================================
Scythe of the Shadowed Soul
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 5.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 22 Delay: 34
Ratio: 1.545 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 83
Str: +5 Sta: +10 Cha: +5 Int: +20 Fire Resist: +5 Disease Resist: +15 Cold Resist: +5 Magic Resist: +10
Poison Resist: +15 HP: +20 Mana: +80
Weapon Skill: One Hand Blunt
Classes: Necromancer
Races: Iksar Gnome Dark Elf Erudite Human
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Torment of Shadows
Type: Triggered
===================================================================
Staff of the Four
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 4.0 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 20 Delay: 30
Ratio: 1.5 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 13 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 88
Str: +10 Dex: +5 Sta: +10 Int: +25 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +5 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +5 Mana: +100
Weapon Skill: One Hand Blunt
Classes: Wizard
Races: Gnome Dark Elf Erudite High Elf Human Froglok
Slot 1: Type 4
Effect: Barrier of Force
Type: Triggered
EDIT**** corrected weapon for monk epic.
Edited, Fri Mar 12 08:22:06 2004 by lewzephyr
EDIT**** added Pally Epic
Edited, Fri Mar 12 15:07:38 2004 by lewzephyr
- Forums
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- Results of Epics, unbalance?
Results of Epics, unbalance?Follow
No comments on the post, but a correction. The Whistling Fists are not the monk epic weapon, that would be the Celestial Fists. The Whistling Fists can be handed in as a substitute for the Robe of the Whistling Fists in TD.
Celestial Fists
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: HANDS
AC: +15 Str: +20 Dex: +10 Sta: +10 Agi: +10 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +100
Classes: Monk
Races: Iksar Human
Slot 1: Type 7
Effect: Celestial Tranquility
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
Level for Effect: 50
Celestial Fists
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: HANDS
AC: +15 Str: +20 Dex: +10 Sta: +10 Agi: +10 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +100
Classes: Monk
Races: Iksar Human
Slot 1: Type 7
Effect: Celestial Tranquility
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited
Level for Effect: 50
Scholar
21 posts
Fiery Defender
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 35 Delay: 40
Ratio: 1.142 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 42 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 140
AC: +15 Str: +20 Sta: +10 Wis: +15 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +70 Mana: +30
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Paladin
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 4
Or doesn't the Paladin count?
LORE ITEM MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Weight: 0.1 Size: MEDIUM
Slot: PRIMARY
Damage: 35 Delay: 40
Ratio: 1.142 Amazing
Damage Bonus: 42 (lvl 65)
Comparative Efficiency: 140
AC: +15 Str: +20 Sta: +10 Wis: +15 Fire Resist: +10 Disease Resist: +10 Cold Resist: +10 Magic Resist: +10 Poison Resist: +10 HP: +70 Mana: +30
Weapon Skill: Two Hand Slash
Classes: Paladin
Races: All Races
Slot 1: Type 4
Or doesn't the Paladin count?
Well of course the Pally epic counts... As I said this was not my original post.. but I have corrected/added the Monk and Pally portion...
Now Back to the question:
What are your thoughts on the Balance/Unbalance of Melee Epics?
Now Back to the question:
What are your thoughts on the Balance/Unbalance of Melee Epics?
It would fully depend on the difficulty of the Beserker epic to obtain. I haven't researched it yet, but from what I've seen everything needed for the epic is still contrained to Kunark eraish (and old planes) mobs. I'm just going off various mobs I've heard about for it though, so that could easily be wrong.
Point being that if it's not significantly harder to accomplish, then it's indeed significantly overpowered IMO. 46/37 is a *really* good 2h delay. I don't think there's a purchasable weapon in the game that you can get with that good a ratio, and you'd have to be tier3+ to get a drop as good (but likely without all the other stuff). Putting a 40% haste on top of that is ridiculous IMO.
If the beserker epic is harder to obtain, then that's fine. However, I really do think they should then go back and add upgrade quests to the old epics to bring them in line with the new one(s) (including the BL epic in there as well). Make it so that the total work involved is the same as for the beserker epic, and the final reward is of the same level.
This is not a new thing. The paladin epic is basically the result of the same concept. Originally, there was a paladin quest for the Fiery Avenger, culminating in a turning in PoS (then the "uber hard" zone of the game). When Kunark came out, all the classes got a "particle effect weapon" called an epic. They did not just leave the paladin weapon as was though. They made the FA one step towards getting the FD. They could easily do the same with all the other epics as well. Just add a few more steps that are needed to upgrade the current epics to a new one that's equal to the Berserker epic.
If the Berserker epic quest is similar in difficulty to the others, then IMO, there's a real problem. To me, that cheapens the work that many of us did for our epics back in the day. Not only is their quest no harder, that quest *today* is significantly easier in comparison. Giving it a reward that's in line with today's GoD loot just seems wrong IMO. I've always thought they should go back and re-address the old epics. I have no problem with them adding some extra "difficult" stuff to them. But make them more useful today then they are. Epics represent the "quest" approach to getting gear rather then the "raid drop" approach. All epics take time to get (ok, the rogue one's waaay to easy IMO, but all others take time and patience). You can't just kill mobA over and over. Drops are generally not guaranteed. You have to dedicate time to getting the stuff you need for a significant amount of time. All of this combines, even today, to require more effort then most raid loot that people get. Yet the reward has not scaled with the relative value of the time spent to achieve the epic.
I'm not sure of the details, but this is something to be addressed IMO. They should make all epics better. Heck. Epics should at a minimum have more aug slots on them then generic weapons. They should have updated delays, and resists, and stats to reflect the ranges of drops that folks get today (or can just buy in the bazaar). They don't need huge upgrades, just a bit here and a bit there to make them more competitive. I was generally ok with the idea of epics just being outdated, but if they're going to give the beserkers an updated epic, they should definately go back and readress all the others as well...
Point being that if it's not significantly harder to accomplish, then it's indeed significantly overpowered IMO. 46/37 is a *really* good 2h delay. I don't think there's a purchasable weapon in the game that you can get with that good a ratio, and you'd have to be tier3+ to get a drop as good (but likely without all the other stuff). Putting a 40% haste on top of that is ridiculous IMO.
If the beserker epic is harder to obtain, then that's fine. However, I really do think they should then go back and add upgrade quests to the old epics to bring them in line with the new one(s) (including the BL epic in there as well). Make it so that the total work involved is the same as for the beserker epic, and the final reward is of the same level.
This is not a new thing. The paladin epic is basically the result of the same concept. Originally, there was a paladin quest for the Fiery Avenger, culminating in a turning in PoS (then the "uber hard" zone of the game). When Kunark came out, all the classes got a "particle effect weapon" called an epic. They did not just leave the paladin weapon as was though. They made the FA one step towards getting the FD. They could easily do the same with all the other epics as well. Just add a few more steps that are needed to upgrade the current epics to a new one that's equal to the Berserker epic.
If the Berserker epic quest is similar in difficulty to the others, then IMO, there's a real problem. To me, that cheapens the work that many of us did for our epics back in the day. Not only is their quest no harder, that quest *today* is significantly easier in comparison. Giving it a reward that's in line with today's GoD loot just seems wrong IMO. I've always thought they should go back and re-address the old epics. I have no problem with them adding some extra "difficult" stuff to them. But make them more useful today then they are. Epics represent the "quest" approach to getting gear rather then the "raid drop" approach. All epics take time to get (ok, the rogue one's waaay to easy IMO, but all others take time and patience). You can't just kill mobA over and over. Drops are generally not guaranteed. You have to dedicate time to getting the stuff you need for a significant amount of time. All of this combines, even today, to require more effort then most raid loot that people get. Yet the reward has not scaled with the relative value of the time spent to achieve the epic.
I'm not sure of the details, but this is something to be addressed IMO. They should make all epics better. Heck. Epics should at a minimum have more aug slots on them then generic weapons. They should have updated delays, and resists, and stats to reflect the ranges of drops that folks get today (or can just buy in the bazaar). They don't need huge upgrades, just a bit here and a bit there to make them more competitive. I was generally ok with the idea of epics just being outdated, but if they're going to give the beserkers an updated epic, they should definately go back and readress all the others as well...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
/em goes to find some cheese for all this whine.
The epics are supposed to be "epic" for that particular class, at the time they were put in the game. I think all epics fit that.
The berserker epic had to be as good as it was, with the berserker being able to use so many existing weapons. It would make no sense to put in a "new" epic which was not as good as something you could buy for 10,000 plat or less in the bazaar. Who would bother to get it? It doesn't have anything to do with how difficult the quest is, it has to be epic "today." So a post POD, GOD period epic is going to be "epic."
That doesn't mean that they are going to redo every other epic to be similar. Maybe my 56 druid would complain if it had a better holdable than the druid epic, but it doesn't. I still think my epic is quite nice and fine for my class.
So you're saying that a level 51 beserker and a level 51 warrior should have the same difficulty quest in front of them, but the warrior will get a weapon that's not as good as something either he or the beserker could buy for 10k in the bazaar, but the beserker gets an item that is much better...
That makes sense how? Two quests, of equal difficulty, for equal levels, for two different classes, should result in similarly powerful results for those two classes. When the quest was released should be irrelevant. To give the beserkers the same opportunities as other melee classes, their epic should have been similar difficulty and similar power. Yes. That would mean that the beserker epic would be just as underpowered as all the other melee epics. That would be "fair".
Since they did make the beserker epic significantly more powerful then the others, I would assume that they are in fact finally going to update or upgrade the other class epics. If not, they've introduced a pretty significant power imbalance to the game. Not that this would be the first time, but this one is pretty darn blatant...
What I find really odd, is that while they went back this last patch and upgraded a ton of items to add +end to them, they missed the epics (hybrid epics specifically, don't know about warrior, but I'll ask). Very odd IMO. It really looked like they went back and applied a +end to every item that had +mana, and to some very obvious (pure melee) items in order to balance out the old content. This makes sense. But why specifically not update epics? Could it be because they're already planning an epic upgrade?
Dunno. That may just be wishful thinking on my part. However, I still strongly believe that epics should at least be vaguely within the same class in terms of power. This new beserker epic is miles ahead of all the other melee class epics. No other melee class epic has even a 1/1 ratio. Most aren't even close to that ratio (the 1h weapons for warrior, ranger, and BL). To give the beserkers a 2h weapon with a 46/37 is ludicrously overpowered in comparison. That's a several tier leap in damage output in that weapon, and puts it in the running for Elemental/Time quality gear. To dump a 40% haste on top of that (very few items in the game have higher then 41%, and none that have higher then 36% are droppable) is just waaaay over the top. All the other melee's have to find and equip items for that level haste that are as difficult and rare to find as the epics themselves. To get the epic and that level of haste in a single package is amazingly powerful in comparison.
Believe it or not, this is not a whine. It's just a statement of fact. That epic is waaaaay overpowered in relation to the other epics. Again, I don't know how hard it is to get (but can't be too hard, I've seen folks with it already), but in any case, the other classes should at the very least be given some quest to allow them to upgrade their epics to match it. That's just an issue of game balance.
That makes sense how? Two quests, of equal difficulty, for equal levels, for two different classes, should result in similarly powerful results for those two classes. When the quest was released should be irrelevant. To give the beserkers the same opportunities as other melee classes, their epic should have been similar difficulty and similar power. Yes. That would mean that the beserker epic would be just as underpowered as all the other melee epics. That would be "fair".
Since they did make the beserker epic significantly more powerful then the others, I would assume that they are in fact finally going to update or upgrade the other class epics. If not, they've introduced a pretty significant power imbalance to the game. Not that this would be the first time, but this one is pretty darn blatant...
What I find really odd, is that while they went back this last patch and upgraded a ton of items to add +end to them, they missed the epics (hybrid epics specifically, don't know about warrior, but I'll ask). Very odd IMO. It really looked like they went back and applied a +end to every item that had +mana, and to some very obvious (pure melee) items in order to balance out the old content. This makes sense. But why specifically not update epics? Could it be because they're already planning an epic upgrade?
Dunno. That may just be wishful thinking on my part. However, I still strongly believe that epics should at least be vaguely within the same class in terms of power. This new beserker epic is miles ahead of all the other melee class epics. No other melee class epic has even a 1/1 ratio. Most aren't even close to that ratio (the 1h weapons for warrior, ranger, and BL). To give the beserkers a 2h weapon with a 46/37 is ludicrously overpowered in comparison. That's a several tier leap in damage output in that weapon, and puts it in the running for Elemental/Time quality gear. To dump a 40% haste on top of that (very few items in the game have higher then 41%, and none that have higher then 36% are droppable) is just waaaay over the top. All the other melee's have to find and equip items for that level haste that are as difficult and rare to find as the epics themselves. To get the epic and that level of haste in a single package is amazingly powerful in comparison.
Believe it or not, this is not a whine. It's just a statement of fact. That epic is waaaaay overpowered in relation to the other epics. Again, I don't know how hard it is to get (but can't be too hard, I've seen folks with it already), but in any case, the other classes should at the very least be given some quest to allow them to upgrade their epics to match it. That's just an issue of game balance.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Care for Cheddar? Monterray? Goulda?
Listen, Warriors suck (IMHO). That's really the gist of it (IMHO). They are there for one reason only (IMHO)...meatsheilds. Classes like Monks, Pally's, and (now) Zerks do the real damage (along with casters, of course) while the Warrior just stands there and taunts. Why SHOULD they get an end-all-be-all weapon? Be happy with what you got.
But, I shall pose to you an interesting question: Have you played the Zerk yet? Taken it to at least 20 (and NOT by PL'ing either, Zerks have to be worked on)? Their ghetto stun and root are awesome, and they get only better at higher lvls. So why schlump them with a Warrior-quality weapon? They [b][/b]deserve[u][/u] better (IMHO).
Listen, Warriors suck (IMHO). That's really the gist of it (IMHO). They are there for one reason only (IMHO)...meatsheilds. Classes like Monks, Pally's, and (now) Zerks do the real damage (along with casters, of course) while the Warrior just stands there and taunts. Why SHOULD they get an end-all-be-all weapon? Be happy with what you got.
But, I shall pose to you an interesting question: Have you played the Zerk yet? Taken it to at least 20 (and NOT by PL'ing either, Zerks have to be worked on)? Their ghetto stun and root are awesome, and they get only better at higher lvls. So why schlump them with a Warrior-quality weapon? They [b][/b]deserve[u][/u] better (IMHO).
You are either not reading what Gbaji wrote or just dont care. He didnt say the berserker's didnt "deserve" the epic that they get. He stated that IF the quests for the berserker and other melee classes were of equal difficulty then the reward should be equal. Seems like a pretty easy concept to understand. If the berserker quest is significantly harder then the better reward is warrented. (however i agree with Gbaji that the epics need an overhaul) In response to the Warrior's suck comment. Yes warriors are meatshields that's their lot in life. Most warriors that I know including myself knew this when we rolled our warriors; however played correctly they can and will save the groups life by standing there taunting. I dont think the casters/rogues/berserkers/monks want the mobs smashing them. I think the next warrior you play with should just forget to hit the taunt button and see what happens. Loading please wait. Just my 2cps.
Ok. I read through the beserker epic "quest". My god! That's the easiest thing I've ever seen. It makes the rogue epic "Freebringer" look hard.
Honestly. Go read through the walkthrough. It's completely linear. Each NPC tells you exactly what to do next, where to go, and who to talk to (unlike the other epics which were vague or misleading and took months to complete the first time).
As far as I can tell, all of the mobs needed for the quest (and I use that term loosely) are either triggered, or very common spawns. Every encounter drops the item needed *every* time. This quest is ludicrously easy. A mid leveled raid guild (ie: average guys with enough level 65s in bazaar bought gear) could literally complete the entire thing in a single game session. The only possible time sink is the possiblity that maybe the Ire guy in PoF doesn't spawn (which doesn't sound like a problem considering everyone doing PoF for other reasons is tripping over this mob and in some cases multiples of him). Everything else can simply be done one at a time in order. Most encounters are in outdoor zones with zero difficulty getting to them. There are no rare spawns with rare drops. There's no "raid this zone for a couple months straight and hope you get a lucky drop" aspect to it.
I'm serious here. At this point, any zerker in a guild that can field 20+ level 60 or higher characters is literally handed this weapon as a gift. There's no difficulty to it at all.
Um... I take my earlier statements back. This isn't just a slight bit unbalanced. It's not a question of whether this reward is too powerful for the difficulty and risk. It's overwhelmingly powerful for how incredibly easy the quest is. It is by far the easiest epic quest to complete IMO, and gives by far the best reward. I would be totally surprised if they don't revamp the other epics at this point. There's no reason not to. If they're going to just give this new class such a great weapon, they may as well do the same to all classes.
Honestly. Go read through the walkthrough. It's completely linear. Each NPC tells you exactly what to do next, where to go, and who to talk to (unlike the other epics which were vague or misleading and took months to complete the first time).
As far as I can tell, all of the mobs needed for the quest (and I use that term loosely) are either triggered, or very common spawns. Every encounter drops the item needed *every* time. This quest is ludicrously easy. A mid leveled raid guild (ie: average guys with enough level 65s in bazaar bought gear) could literally complete the entire thing in a single game session. The only possible time sink is the possiblity that maybe the Ire guy in PoF doesn't spawn (which doesn't sound like a problem considering everyone doing PoF for other reasons is tripping over this mob and in some cases multiples of him). Everything else can simply be done one at a time in order. Most encounters are in outdoor zones with zero difficulty getting to them. There are no rare spawns with rare drops. There's no "raid this zone for a couple months straight and hope you get a lucky drop" aspect to it.
I'm serious here. At this point, any zerker in a guild that can field 20+ level 60 or higher characters is literally handed this weapon as a gift. There's no difficulty to it at all.
Um... I take my earlier statements back. This isn't just a slight bit unbalanced. It's not a question of whether this reward is too powerful for the difficulty and risk. It's overwhelmingly powerful for how incredibly easy the quest is. It is by far the easiest epic quest to complete IMO, and gives by far the best reward. I would be totally surprised if they don't revamp the other epics at this point. There's no reason not to. If they're going to just give this new class such a great weapon, they may as well do the same to all classes.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
and if you truly read the write up, then you would have noticed that the MAJORITY of the epic has to be done solo.
or did you only read what you wanted to read?
or did you only read what you wanted to read?
That's strange psychojester. I read your post and said hmm maybe he is right so I went to the GoBerserker.com website and read the walkthrough and the only part that you HAVE to do solo that involves killing anything is the Image of a Berserker part. None of the other trials seem to state that you HAVE to do them by yourself. In fact the walkthrough that i read told you to be sure to have friends there to help..... The other thing that I dont understand is why you seem so opposed to SOE updating the other epics. Noone has said that SOE should nerf the berserker quest only that it is far to easy for the reward (which it is) and that SOE should update the other epics to be inline with the berserker weapon. I believe that it has been posed that there should be some extra steps in order to get the updated epic. Personally I am at a loss as to your objection to this. Just as an example to show the unbalance of the epics. For the warrior to get his/her epic they must loot a red dragon scale which drops off of Nagafen. In order to do this (on tunare) you must participate in the Naggy raids and you are placed on the senior loot list for scale. Currently there are toons with 12 and 13 naggy raids under their belt still waiting. So that would mean that since naggy spawns once a week, a warrior would have to wait at least 10 weeks just to loot this one item. (assuming that on average people give up and lvl past the lvl limit to fight naggy) Each naggy raid takes a total of about 3 hours from show up time to actual finish. so you are looking at a minimum of 30 hours of real life play time and that is one of the easier drops to get since it is rare that the naggy raids wipe anymore. Why in the world would anyone do this? I know I was thinking of doing my epic just to say that I did it but gave up due to not wanting to not lvl my warrior past 52. Clearly the reward/risk/time spent ratio on the Berserker Epic is way out of line with the others. Anyone looking at this without bias can see that.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Well, if Epic weapons are supposed to be directly related to the effort put into in getting them, I'd say they would be in line for a nerf not an upgrade.
I did the entire druid epic last week 2-boxing my bard and shaman. In fact, I feel confident I could 2-box any epic that I did not have to go past DTing mobs for. Not real epic these days.
I did the entire druid epic last week 2-boxing my bard and shaman. In fact, I feel confident I could 2-box any epic that I did not have to go past DTing mobs for. Not real epic these days.
Sure.. two-box the entire epic with a lvl 57 bard and a lvl 59 shaman with no AA's and Kunark gear and you'd have a point. Epics are designed to be accomplished in the 50's. Saying that now they're "too easy" is like saying SOE should nerf Blackened Alloy Longswords because my lvl 31 beastlord can solo Runnyeye basement.
Gbaji's point (which I agree with) is that the berserker epic is twice the reward for about a third of the effort. No praying for book or scale drops, no racing to Sev in EJ, no trying to drum up a Reaver raid, no camping Raster for 96 hours, no chasing down Quillmane, no trying to spawn Eldrig, no long pointless PoS raids, no praying the golems are up in Fear, no slogging down to Queen in Chardok, etc. If you think the Kunark era epics should be nerfed as "too easy", the berserker epic should result in a slightly pointy stick with a crack in it.
Gbaji's point (which I agree with) is that the berserker epic is twice the reward for about a third of the effort. No praying for book or scale drops, no racing to Sev in EJ, no trying to drum up a Reaver raid, no camping Raster for 96 hours, no chasing down Quillmane, no trying to spawn Eldrig, no long pointless PoS raids, no praying the golems are up in Fear, no slogging down to Queen in Chardok, etc. If you think the Kunark era epics should be nerfed as "too easy", the berserker epic should result in a slightly pointy stick with a crack in it.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I've finished three epics so far: shm, rog, and dru. All three are useful to my characters. Ragebringer, swiftwind, and the bst-claws are common in my guild. No one in my guild has the pally SK or War epics, simply because it's not worth it. You can get a WMBS, 2-tined corpse pitchfork, or whatever, easily in the bazaar.
If they'd made the BER epic similar to the other 2HS epics, no one would do it, except for novelty. There's no point in that.
But the BER epic is not a gimmee when compared to the rogue epic (1 raid mob that you can do for several rogues at the same time) or the shaman epic (PoF easy hit, but hard breakin and a mob you're gonna find while farming jade reavers, the rest is solo/duo/1-group stuff). I'm not finished with it, but it feels a lot like the druid epic, with some fun things tossed in at the start.
Last comment: 40% haste doesn't effectively differ from 30% haste items in practice for group-dependent classes like rog, war, and ber (I'd say monk but they seem able to solo with the right gear). You're gonna have either enc or shm before you get the group invite, so you'll be at or near your level's haste cap regardless.
If they'd made the BER epic similar to the other 2HS epics, no one would do it, except for novelty. There's no point in that.
But the BER epic is not a gimmee when compared to the rogue epic (1 raid mob that you can do for several rogues at the same time) or the shaman epic (PoF easy hit, but hard breakin and a mob you're gonna find while farming jade reavers, the rest is solo/duo/1-group stuff). I'm not finished with it, but it feels a lot like the druid epic, with some fun things tossed in at the start.
Last comment: 40% haste doesn't effectively differ from 30% haste items in practice for group-dependent classes like rog, war, and ber (I'd say monk but they seem able to solo with the right gear). You're gonna have either enc or shm before you get the group invite, so you'll be at or near your level's haste cap regardless.
squirtle wrote:
I've finished three epics so far: shm, rog, and dru. All three are useful to my characters. Ragebringer, swiftwind, and the bst-claws are common in my guild. No one in my guild has the pally SK or War epics, simply because it's not worth it. You can get a WMBS, 2-tined corpse pitchfork, or whatever, easily in the bazaar.
If they'd made the BER epic similar to the other 2HS epics, no one would do it, except for novelty. There's no point in that.
If they'd made the BER epic similar to the other 2HS epics, no one would do it, except for novelty. There's no point in that.
Um... that's the point I'm making here. Right now, those other melee epics aren't worth the time and effort to do. Why then make a beserker epic that's signficantly easier to do, and also a huge upgrade over all other epics? The only reason to make a beserker epic in the first place is because all the other classes have them.
The point here is that if they took the time to make a "new" beserker epic quest that's easier then most of the existing epics, yet gives a reward that's up to snuff with today's gear, why not go back and adjust all the other epics? If they don't, then they aren't being "fair". They didn't have to make a beserker epic in the first place, right? So why make it so significantly better then the others?
Quote:
But the BER epic is not a gimmee when compared to the rogue epic (1 raid mob that you can do for several rogues at the same time) or the shaman epic (PoF easy hit, but hard breakin and a mob you're gonna find while farming jade reavers, the rest is solo/duo/1-group stuff). I'm not finished with it, but it feels a lot like the druid epic, with some fun things tossed in at the start.
Depends on your definition of "gimme". The rogue epic, while trivially easy in terms of raid requirements, can actually take quite of bit of time to collect all the bits needed. If you just buy the robes, it's easy and fast. If you actually do the whole quest, it can take several weeks of arranging kills of the specific mobs in order to get all the bits needed.
I guess for a weak raiding guild, the rogue epic might be seen as easier since you can skip the time consuming bits. But to any guild that can easily kill the mobs in the beserker epic, it's vastly easier. You can literally go from mob to mob, spawning each in order, killing it, getting the next bit, then moving on. You could do the whole thing from start to finish in an afternoon. Even the rogue epic takes a bit more time then that...
I'd also like to comment that if your only personal epic experience is doing the rogue, druid, and shaman epics (by far the three easiest), then you really don't have a clue just how incredibly easy the beserker epic is in relation to the rest of the epic quests. I know of a few SKs that have literally been waiting for *years* to get the golem drop they need from PoF. As in, they never got the drop back in the day when we actually raided fear regularly (golems are on either a 3 day or 7 day timer, and there used to be lots of competition for them), and the occasional PoF raid done in recent times hasn't gotten them one either (there's literally *nothing* that drops in PoF worth getting today). Any guild, with even moderate raiding ability, can complete the beserker epic in very little time. The difference is literally night and day...
Quote:
Last comment: 40% haste doesn't effectively differ from 30% haste items in practice for group-dependent classes like rog, war, and ber (I'd say monk but they seem able to solo with the right gear). You're gonna have either enc or shm before you get the group invite, so you'll be at or near your level's haste cap regardless.
Hmmm... I've heard this many times, and it's often posted (and repeated over and over) on threads about haste. Frankly, I don't believe it. I have never believed there was an artificial "haste cap", and I've never seen any actual parsings to prove that one exists. The idea of a haste cap at 100% came about back in the days due to two things:
1. Back in the pre-kunark days, and even in the pre-PoP days, there was no combination of haste that could break 100%, so folks with a need to put "caps" on things (which seems all the rage if you've followed trends in EQ for any length of time), assumed that there was one.
2. Lots of people who play EQ are really bad at math. Folks don't understand how to apply haste percentages when they think about them in terms of a reduction in delay. The prevailing thought that I remember seeing back in the day was that 100% haste was impossible because that would mean a reduction to a *zero* delay. Um... this was the result of faulty math, but most folks stuck to it, and continued to propagate the "myth" that there was a 100% haste cap.
Amusingly enough, when PoP came out, and we started seeing bard "overhaste" songs, folks did the math and figured out that with even normal haste buffs and items, the total haste percentage for most people was higher then 100% when bard overhaste was applied. Never underestimate the ability of players to attempt to justify things in odd ways. No one could accept that these songs were useless because they pushed haste over the now accepted 100% haste cap, so they decided that in just the case of those songs, that haste could go over 100% (as much as that broke many folks bizaare concept of how haste worked). Of course, when actual parsings were done, they confirmed that the haste percentages did work over 100%. Of course, the connection that they worked whether there was bard haste involved or not was never made by most people (because that would contradict the accepted belief that "normal" haste could not exceed 100%).
There is no practical reason why haste percentages would need to be capped in any such way. Mathmatically, a 110% haste is just as easy to deal with as a 100% haste. The formula is simple. Add up the total haste you have and apply it as follows:
del*(1/(1+haste)) = new delay
So a weapon with a 40 delay used while wearing a 30% haste item and having a 60% haste spell would have the following delay:
40*(1/(1+.9)) = 21
It's really that simple. If you have that same item, and a 41% haste item and a 65% haste spell, you'll get the following delay on your weapon:
40*(1/(1+1.06)) = 19.4
Add in a bard 15% overhaste song and you get the following:
40*(1/(1+1.21)) = 18.1
It's the lack of general understanding of how to apply haste formulas that cause folks to think that there are arbitrary haste caps. As I've said before. I've seen lots of people talking over the years about them, but I've yet to actually see a parse that confirms any sort of cap on haste. This is almost entirely due to the fact that all the parsings for haste were done before there was any combination of haste that added up to more then 100, and the assumption that 100 was a magical haste cap was already well established by the time there was.
Heh. It's just a pet peeve of mine to debunk all the ideas that folks have about "caps" in the game. Most of them are explained away by actual mathmatical formulas and incorrect assumptions (like the AC caps that supposedly vary by expansion. They don't exist either).
Um... So yeah. A 40% haste is a big deal. If nothing else, you're going to be able to start wearing this thing by level 46. There aren't a whole lot of folks you'll be grouping with that have over 60% haste at that point...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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