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Frustrated NecroFollow
Edited, Fri Mar 12 10:31:38 2004 by danreynolds
Edited, Fri Mar 12 10:32:12 2004 by danreynolds
You don't cast spells while running. You have to stop, cast the spell, then continue running.
The way you get spells off when you're aggro kiting is to cast your snare spell on the mob first, and keep that active. Get a feel for how long it lasts and at what point you need to recast it. For example(this is just my experience and since we're different levels you'll have to adjust the spells you cast accordingly), when I'm aggro kiting, I'll cast dooming darkness(snare), then run forward a bit, stop(this is how you can cast spells without getting hit. The snare will slow the mob down, and if you run out of spell casting range, then start clicking the spell gem it will cast as soon as the mob is in casting range, which should be plenty of room to get the spell off), cast venomous breath. Once venemous breath is cast I send my pet in. After that I run forward a bit more and cast splurt. That's a fast casting spell and usually gives me time to throw a low level poison DoT on before I have to run again. Once venomous breath wears off, I recast that, then recast dooming darkness. Now, dooming darkness hasn't worn off by this time, but I know that once venomous breath wears off, dooming darkness is about 75% done, and recasting before the DoT wears off resets the spell, so by recasting dooming darkness before it wears off, I can keep the mob constantly snared. And as far as gaining aggro, I've found that poison based spells are just about the most effective type to hold aggro.
To turn off taunt on your pet you need to bring up the pet window if it isn't up already(you should always keep this window up when using a pet by the way as it gives you several useful commands and a lot of information at your fingertips). On the main menu bar, in the middle should be a button with a stick person icon, that will bring up the pet information window. Once you have that up, there is a button that says Taunt. Clicking that button will toggle your pet's taunt off and on. You should get a message from your pet when you click this button saying either "Taunting attackers as usual master", or "No longer taunting attackers master". You can also type /pet taunt off to turn off taunt.
Shadow compact does not heal you. It takes HP from you and transfers them to your target. You have to cast a lifetap on the mob to regain the hitpoints you lose from casting shadow compact on your pet.
The key to surviving while you're aggro kiting is to keep the mob snared at all times. Having spirit of the wolf cast on you helps, but don't count on it as there won't always be a friendly caster around to help you. If you can, try to get an item with either spell haste or extended range focus effect. Those will help greatly. They may be out of your price range for now, but I'd suggest saving up for them.
The way you get spells off when you're aggro kiting is to cast your snare spell on the mob first, and keep that active. Get a feel for how long it lasts and at what point you need to recast it. For example(this is just my experience and since we're different levels you'll have to adjust the spells you cast accordingly), when I'm aggro kiting, I'll cast dooming darkness(snare), then run forward a bit, stop(this is how you can cast spells without getting hit. The snare will slow the mob down, and if you run out of spell casting range, then start clicking the spell gem it will cast as soon as the mob is in casting range, which should be plenty of room to get the spell off), cast venomous breath. Once venemous breath is cast I send my pet in. After that I run forward a bit more and cast splurt. That's a fast casting spell and usually gives me time to throw a low level poison DoT on before I have to run again. Once venomous breath wears off, I recast that, then recast dooming darkness. Now, dooming darkness hasn't worn off by this time, but I know that once venomous breath wears off, dooming darkness is about 75% done, and recasting before the DoT wears off resets the spell, so by recasting dooming darkness before it wears off, I can keep the mob constantly snared. And as far as gaining aggro, I've found that poison based spells are just about the most effective type to hold aggro.
To turn off taunt on your pet you need to bring up the pet window if it isn't up already(you should always keep this window up when using a pet by the way as it gives you several useful commands and a lot of information at your fingertips). On the main menu bar, in the middle should be a button with a stick person icon, that will bring up the pet information window. Once you have that up, there is a button that says Taunt. Clicking that button will toggle your pet's taunt off and on. You should get a message from your pet when you click this button saying either "Taunting attackers as usual master", or "No longer taunting attackers master". You can also type /pet taunt off to turn off taunt.
Shadow compact does not heal you. It takes HP from you and transfers them to your target. You have to cast a lifetap on the mob to regain the hitpoints you lose from casting shadow compact on your pet.
The key to surviving while you're aggro kiting is to keep the mob snared at all times. Having spirit of the wolf cast on you helps, but don't count on it as there won't always be a friendly caster around to help you. If you can, try to get an item with either spell haste or extended range focus effect. Those will help greatly. They may be out of your price range for now, but I'd suggest saving up for them.
You don't need second party confirmation on the fear nerf singdall. You said you've got a necro, and I'm assuming from your posts a fairly high level one. Just go try to fear a 50+ mob and see what happens. ;)
As far as the semantics part of the debate goes, yes saying aggro kiting is somewhat redundant. However, I kind of learned things on my own as I went, there wasn't anyone around to explain the finer points of everquest to me, and I learned the kiting methods as aggro kiting, fear kiting and quad kiting. That's the way I descibe them to myself in order to know what type of kiting I'm talking about.
Edited, Fri Mar 12 10:43:11 2004 by danreynolds
As far as the semantics part of the debate goes, yes saying aggro kiting is somewhat redundant. However, I kind of learned things on my own as I went, there wasn't anyone around to explain the finer points of everquest to me, and I learned the kiting methods as aggro kiting, fear kiting and quad kiting. That's the way I descibe them to myself in order to know what type of kiting I'm talking about.
Edited, Fri Mar 12 10:43:11 2004 by danreynolds
cant, i left the game about 30days ago, my accounts are done, cancled, no longer active.
as a 60th nec i was still fear kitting in some places until the day i left, and had no problem with it even in PoStorm. no was not soloing in storm, but did have to use fear a few times for some CC work as was not planning on having my ST spell up. our chanter LD in middle of fight.
my last night in storm was 2 or 3 days before i dropped my accounts. so i know fear was working on T2 mobs (thus 55th level mobs at least, and even some as high as 61 or 62) just at 30 days back.
so unless SoE has nerfed fear then i want to hear from an other 60+ nec who can not fear kite.
as a 60th nec i was still fear kitting in some places until the day i left, and had no problem with it even in PoStorm. no was not soloing in storm, but did have to use fear a few times for some CC work as was not planning on having my ST spell up. our chanter LD in middle of fight.
my last night in storm was 2 or 3 days before i dropped my accounts. so i know fear was working on T2 mobs (thus 55th level mobs at least, and even some as high as 61 or 62) just at 30 days back.
so unless SoE has nerfed fear then i want to hear from an other 60+ nec who can not fear kite.
Not sure about the fearing post 50, it works in Dulak's but those mobs are only mid 40's. However, I have heard/seen other necros, as recently as yesterday, fearing guards in Katta and ravens and treants in PoN, i agro-kite them so cant personally verify.
Blackthorne, the HoT i was speaking of is Leach. What this spell does is drain 8 hp's from your target and heals you by 8 every tick (6 seconds) This, used with your Allure of Death (drains 8 hps for 4 mana) is one of the most important combo's a necro has. Use them, love them.
As for agro-kiting, your pet is still very effective at tanking at your level. You'll want to learn the basics because at higher levels you'll be fighting things that will kill you or your pet in 2 rounds if they close to melee range, but at 22 you can effectively have your pet tank.
BTW, not sure if you knew about it or not, but check out:
http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Necromancer
This lists your spells by level, where to get them, and what they do. Good luck.
Blackthorne, the HoT i was speaking of is Leach. What this spell does is drain 8 hp's from your target and heals you by 8 every tick (6 seconds) This, used with your Allure of Death (drains 8 hps for 4 mana) is one of the most important combo's a necro has. Use them, love them.
As for agro-kiting, your pet is still very effective at tanking at your level. You'll want to learn the basics because at higher levels you'll be fighting things that will kill you or your pet in 2 rounds if they close to melee range, but at 22 you can effectively have your pet tank.
BTW, not sure if you knew about it or not, but check out:
http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Necromancer
This lists your spells by level, where to get them, and what they do. Good luck.
Do you give your pet any weapons? Keep a couple rusty weapons on you, and give them to the pet when you summon them. That will help a lot. If you got a mage near by, ask him to summon some armor for your pet. If you know you'll be using this pet for a long time in one area, consider picking up a summoned haste mask and summoned girdle (see them in the bazaar for 10-15pp sometimes.) That can add quite a bit to your pet.
You may also have been hit with the pet haste bug that came out with the new patch. That was resolved yesterday though.
dont buy the summoned items in the baz, go to pok and politly ask around from 60-65th level mages to summon you a full set or 2 of pet toys along with the following items:
spell haste
DD
DoT
mana preserve
offer to donnate. i would normaly donnate between 10-50p depending on how well i knew the mage, and how much coinage i had on me at the time.
do not get the hands, get the swords as you do not have a monk, but a warrior for a pet.
i forget is the 20th pet can DW or not, so try it with a pair of rusties and if he can use 2, then get 2 swords, if not, then dont worry about it.
i like to keep 2 sets of pet toys with me when solo or group just as a backup for LD or what ever.
spell haste
DD
DoT
mana preserve
offer to donnate. i would normaly donnate between 10-50p depending on how well i knew the mage, and how much coinage i had on me at the time.
do not get the hands, get the swords as you do not have a monk, but a warrior for a pet.
i forget is the 20th pet can DW or not, so try it with a pair of rusties and if he can use 2, then get 2 swords, if not, then dont worry about it.
i like to keep 2 sets of pet toys with me when solo or group just as a backup for LD or what ever.
Okay it's level 54 that fear is capped at. Over the mobs cannot be feared.
Yanari wrote:
No new pet should be smaller than the previous one of the same graphic model. The fact that yours is suggests an error of some type. It could be nothing more than a graphics issue, but it could be something more problematic. It wouldn't be the first time.
I'm not a necromancer, but being a magician, I'm a bit familiar with how pets work.
Actually the lvl 16 necro pet versus the lvl 20 there is a size differance the lvl 16 pet is the size of a Troll as far as height considerations lvl 20 and up the pets remain normal size until you get EOT there is also i beleive a color change it looks like a darkbone at lvl 29 i think about the size of average race...
Yani since you never played one just pointing out the little discrepancy but all in all you are right though
Another thing about the necro pets i found that any researched pet was better than the vendor bought spells however the lvl 44 pet which is non researched is better than the lvl 49 pet. The pet spells were also to cater too the SK's because there final pet is the lvl 44 pet.. The lvl 50+ pets range from rogue monk ( monk pet kinnda sucks its best to use him to fear kite) EOT and beyond well there is alot of mixed feelings about it because one of the nerfs was that a lvl 65 neco use to summon a Shadowknight that was able to HT but i think it never went past Test or it did go past test and was on live but was shortlived... I cant remeber which since it was long ago when this occured
danreynolds wrote:
Okay it's level 54 that fear is capped at. Over the mobs cannot be feared.
were are you getting this info from? is it in a patch msg over Feb, or March? are you talking the lower level 8 fear spell? what are you talking about here.
not saying you are wrong, but sure would love to know were you are getting this info or idea from.
Hehe... I'm also amused by the term "agro kiting", and even moreso by stating it's the "reverse of fear kiting". I also remember the origins of those terms.
The term kiting comes from the behavior of the mob. Once you have agro, the mob follows you just like a kite on a string. You can predict exactly where the mob will move because it will always move directly towards you. So by moving in circles, you could control the movement of the mob, keep it in a relatively small area, but never let it get in melee range with you.
Fear kiting was originally referred to as "reverse kiting" (which is why I'm *really* amused by folks saying agro kiting is "fear kiting in reverse"). The idea being that instead of the mob running towards you, it runs away from you. Um... The big differences though is that fear kiting isn't really kiting at all. You can't control the movement of the mob. With kiting you can, with fear kiting once the mob heads in a direction, you can't change its course. Thus, fear kiting is inherently more dangerous...
Also fear kiting makes it harder to keep the mob in range and in a small area. It's going to run away from you, so you have to follow it in order to keep hitting it with spells. These problems can be overcome, but it's something to be aware of. The advantage is that the mob isn't coming towards you, so you can sit and med relatively safely until you see that "fear has worn off" message.
I'd like to add one more thing about casting while moving. You have to stop running to cast the spell. This is usually not a problem if you've got the mob snared. A tip I'd like to add though is to always turn slightly after you stop (hit your right or left arrow key to turn just a bit). The key is that the server tracks your movement and decides if you are moving still when you cast a spell. It periodically polls your client for changes in status. Forward movement kinda continues though until it recieves some other directional input from the client. By tapping the right or left arrow key, you queue up the directional change to the server, so it acts on that before it starts the spell. Rotational movement can be done while casting. Forward movement (or backwards) will interrupt spell casting. By doing this, you get the server to change your movement status from forward to "rotational", and ensure you don't get interrupted by movement. If you don't do this, the server will often continue to think you are still moveing forward for a second or two after you stop, making spell casting very frustrating...
And hey! If you like to watch your spell effects, you can always just run a ways, turn around toward the mob, and then watch your nuke (or whatever) land. It's a pretty safe method of killing mobs (and can be fun...).
The term kiting comes from the behavior of the mob. Once you have agro, the mob follows you just like a kite on a string. You can predict exactly where the mob will move because it will always move directly towards you. So by moving in circles, you could control the movement of the mob, keep it in a relatively small area, but never let it get in melee range with you.
Fear kiting was originally referred to as "reverse kiting" (which is why I'm *really* amused by folks saying agro kiting is "fear kiting in reverse"). The idea being that instead of the mob running towards you, it runs away from you. Um... The big differences though is that fear kiting isn't really kiting at all. You can't control the movement of the mob. With kiting you can, with fear kiting once the mob heads in a direction, you can't change its course. Thus, fear kiting is inherently more dangerous...
Also fear kiting makes it harder to keep the mob in range and in a small area. It's going to run away from you, so you have to follow it in order to keep hitting it with spells. These problems can be overcome, but it's something to be aware of. The advantage is that the mob isn't coming towards you, so you can sit and med relatively safely until you see that "fear has worn off" message.
I'd like to add one more thing about casting while moving. You have to stop running to cast the spell. This is usually not a problem if you've got the mob snared. A tip I'd like to add though is to always turn slightly after you stop (hit your right or left arrow key to turn just a bit). The key is that the server tracks your movement and decides if you are moving still when you cast a spell. It periodically polls your client for changes in status. Forward movement kinda continues though until it recieves some other directional input from the client. By tapping the right or left arrow key, you queue up the directional change to the server, so it acts on that before it starts the spell. Rotational movement can be done while casting. Forward movement (or backwards) will interrupt spell casting. By doing this, you get the server to change your movement status from forward to "rotational", and ensure you don't get interrupted by movement. If you don't do this, the server will often continue to think you are still moveing forward for a second or two after you stop, making spell casting very frustrating...
And hey! If you like to watch your spell effects, you can always just run a ways, turn around toward the mob, and then watch your nuke (or whatever) land. It's a pretty safe method of killing mobs (and can be fun...).
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
yes fear kitting for none pet classes is a lot more trouble then for pet classes.
gbaji, i think fear 'kitting' came about via the pet being lead around on the kite string.
IIRC bards were the first toon to be able to 'kite' mobs and did so with so much regularity that SoE hit them with the big nerf bat hard.
the turn slightly to one direction or an other (left or right) is exactly what i did when fear kitting if i had to chase the mob down. normaly pet would kill it before fear ran out(sub 50s) so not a big deal.
gbaji, i think fear 'kitting' came about via the pet being lead around on the kite string.
IIRC bards were the first toon to be able to 'kite' mobs and did so with so much regularity that SoE hit them with the big nerf bat hard.
the turn slightly to one direction or an other (left or right) is exactly what i did when fear kitting if i had to chase the mob down. normaly pet would kill it before fear ran out(sub 50s) so not a big deal.
Hmmm... Nah. I think it was more that folks just connected the term kiting with any method of killing mobs that allowed you to do so without letting the mobs get in melee range of yourself. It was initially called "reverse kiting" because you were kiting in reverse. Intead of having the mob eternally running towards you but never getting in melee range, you had the mob eternally running *away* from you.
It's just a process that language undergoes. Terms start from one thing, but become associated with something else, and then gradually get taken over. It leads to some very interesting uses.
One great example is the term "nerf". Nerf originally came from the line of Nerf(tm) toys, which are soft and less dangerous versions of other things. To "nerf" something was to make it less damaging or dangerous. So when a spell was reduced in effect, or a weapon's proc was changed to be less damaging, and such, it was called a "nerf" of the item. Over time, however, the term "nerf" became associated with any change of the game that negatively affected the players. This changed the term as it was used dramatically. This is why today, when SOE makes a mob or encounter *harder* folks will say "SOE nerfed the mob/encouter". Which is a really amusing use of language since they are effectively using the exact same term to mean the exact opposite of what it originally meant (to make things weaker or less damageing).
Yeah. Bards may very well be the first class to kite. I'm not sure if the term was actually used then though. The first I heard it was in reference to druids. The combo of sow, snare, dots, and nukes made them ideal for the job. I think most folks just called what bards were doing back then "annoying", since they usually just ended up getting tons of people trained as they ran around at selos speed with a horde of mobs running at full speeds after them... It was ugly...
It's just a process that language undergoes. Terms start from one thing, but become associated with something else, and then gradually get taken over. It leads to some very interesting uses.
One great example is the term "nerf". Nerf originally came from the line of Nerf(tm) toys, which are soft and less dangerous versions of other things. To "nerf" something was to make it less damaging or dangerous. So when a spell was reduced in effect, or a weapon's proc was changed to be less damaging, and such, it was called a "nerf" of the item. Over time, however, the term "nerf" became associated with any change of the game that negatively affected the players. This changed the term as it was used dramatically. This is why today, when SOE makes a mob or encounter *harder* folks will say "SOE nerfed the mob/encouter". Which is a really amusing use of language since they are effectively using the exact same term to mean the exact opposite of what it originally meant (to make things weaker or less damageing).
Yeah. Bards may very well be the first class to kite. I'm not sure if the term was actually used then though. The first I heard it was in reference to druids. The combo of sow, snare, dots, and nukes made them ideal for the job. I think most folks just called what bards were doing back then "annoying", since they usually just ended up getting tons of people trained as they ran around at selos speed with a horde of mobs running at full speeds after them... It was ugly...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Yeah. Bards may very well be the first class to kite. I'm not sure if the term was actually used then though. The first I heard it was in reference to druids. The combo of sow, snare, dots, and nukes made them ideal for the job. I think most folks just called what bards were doing back then "annoying", since they usually just ended up getting tons of people trained as they ran around at selos speed with a horde of mobs running at full speeds after them... It was ugly...
yes, brings back memories.
Edited, Sat Mar 13 09:05:43 2004 by Singdall
I'm getting it from my brother's 65 necro who tested it for me after you asked for confirmation. As I said before if you don't believe me, check it out for yourself.
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