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Fishing nerfFollow
Yeahhhhhhhhhh completely nuts...*takes off deepwater helm and hides it under table*
I have one too (rotting in my bank). I got one hunting, used the buff once and muled it. Actually, I think I turned it in for tribute points.
If you bought yours, may I ask why you would buy an item that won't work until 6 levels after you get the spell anyway? :)
If you bought yours, may I ask why you would buy an item that won't work until 6 levels after you get the spell anyway? :)
I bought mine actually because it has half the price i was used to seeing it for in the bazaar, so I bought it for resale. Unfortunatly, nobody wants to help me in the regard by actually buying it. *sigh* If only they were quick ways to make plat :p
the reason that some of the class clickable armors are useful(elder spiritist's, deepwater ect.) is simple toasticle. Mana free spell casting. the only piece of armor my druid has that I consider vital are his elder spiritist's vambraces(I can solo dark blues with it for almost zero mana cost while I med between pulls if I'm quad kiting), and a paladin with a deepwater helm can solo without having to med. Being able to cast spells mana free, even if they're not the highest level spells can be a huge advantage.
Quote:
and a paladin with a deepwater helm can solo without having to med.
Uh-huh.
A 100ish point buff means you don't have to med? Let's look at this for a sec, shall we?
Instead of medding, you cast daring and cancel it over and over, gaining 100 health each time. The deepwater helm has a casting time of 10 seconds, so lets say 12 seconds total counting lag and mouse clicking. Say you need to heal 800 damage, so for for the next minute and a half you stand still and click your helm and cancel the buff over and over.
Player #2 who has to "med" casts Etherial Cleansing, sits down for 40 seconds or so to gain mana while it heals him, repeats again, has to sit a whole minute to get back the total of 300 mana he spent.
Player #2 has healed the same amount of damage in the same period of time. The fact that he sat to "med" and you clicked buffs on and off is meaningless, you both had a minute and a half of downtime.
But if you want to go blow 2k plat to do it, more power to ya. You are the ideal bazaar customer :)
A DW helm is probably the most important piece of soloing gear for a paladin between 45th and 55th level (at which point it becomes less useful).
Uh-huh.
A 100ish point buff means you don't have to med? Let's look at this for a sec, shall we?
Yes. Lets...
Ok. You're right. Except for one major misconceptions. HP buffs like the courage line (of which daring is a part), work in two ways. If you don't have the buff up yet, it increases your max by a set amount, and increases your current by that same amount. If you already have the buff up, it just increases your current by that amount. Thus, it behaves exactly like a free heal spell. You don't click the old one off each time. If you did, it wouldn't actually ever gain you anything. You just keep recasting it.
Eh? Sitting regen of a 50ish character (the average for the range this item is ideal for), is about 15 per tick. That means 20 tics, or 2 minutes to recover the mana spent for 2 castings of ethereal cleansing.
Yes and no. Daring "heals" 130hp per cast, thus it will take 7 casts to recover 800hp (more then 800 actually... 910). That's 14 ticks, a savings of 30% time.
Um... But wait! That's not all. Since it has a 10 second cast, you can time it easily to go off between 2 ticks (allowing you to get that second tick by sitting and medding, even without a mount). Thus, during that time you healed 910hp (14 ticks), you cast daring 7 times and got 7 meds in. That means you didn't just break even on mana, you gained 7*15=105 mana (a third of what you would have spent healing yourself with Ethereal Cleansing).
This allows you to use stuns and such during the fight (up to 100ish mana worth in that case), which will further reduce the amount of damage you take (and increase your kill rate).
Even without accounting for the mana recovery benefit, you've increased your solo kill rate by 30% just by using the helm. Think about it...
Normally, I'd agree that there's lots of overpriced junk in the bazaar. This is not one of them though. The DW helm is probably the single most useful piece of gear a paladin can buy. When you look at it in terms of sustainable heal rate, it's huge:
Rate of heal with DW helm: 10.833 hp/sec
Rate of heal with Eth Cleansing: 6.666 hp/sec
That's ignoring that you'll gain mana using the DW helm and only stay even at that rate with Eth Cleansing. You could effectively decrease that heal rate by about 30% again if you want to recover the same mana you did with the DW helm (effectively adding half again to the number of ticks you have to recover to get the same mana). But I'll leave the extra medding numbers off for now.
Let's look at some more levels:
Light of Life: 2.5 hp/sec (fast cast)
Superior Healing: 5.830 hp/sec
Celestial Cleansing: 7.777 hp/sec
Touch of Nife: 6.250 hp/sec
Light of Nife: 5.312 hp/sec (fast cast)
Supernal Cleansing: 7.500 hp/sec (surprising actually...)
Um. Note that not a single spell paladins ever get will give them a heal rate faster then using the DW helm. And that's without accounting for the mana gain that you'll get using the DW helm versus medding back mana from casting spells. Accounting for the mana gain from DW helm we could simply multiple the heal rate by .66 to get a good approximation. This would mean that the best heal rate a paladin gets (Celestial Cleansing) comes out to 5.179.
Um... that makes healing with the DW helm more effective on a paladin (not using KEI), then a paladin with KEI (double mana regen rate) using self heals.
In otherwords, your argument is completely and totally false. The DW helm is clearly the most useful piece of gear a paladin can buy.
The reason higher level paladins stop using it has nothing to do with soloing rates. It's simply that it gets harder and harder to find anything worth soloing at those levels, and the extra AC/HP from the higher level buffs aren't worth losing just to increase that solo rate (which sucks past about 55 anyway). In a perfect world, where I know that I wont have to deal with anything but a specific set of mobs, and I know that I can solo them without requiring self heals during the fight using only daring as my HP/AC buff, then I'd still use the thing to solo at level 65. I don't, simply because that doesn't happen very often anymore...
But if I were in that situation, it would still be the most efficient way for me to self heal there is.
Toasticle wrote:
Quote:
and a paladin with a deepwater helm can solo without having to med.
Uh-huh.
A 100ish point buff means you don't have to med? Let's look at this for a sec, shall we?
Yes. Lets...
Quote:
Instead of medding, you cast daring and cancel it over and over, gaining 100 health each time. The deepwater helm has a casting time of 10 seconds, so lets say 12 seconds total counting lag and mouse clicking. Say you need to heal 800 damage, so for for the next minute and a half you stand still and click your helm and cancel the buff over and over.
Ok. You're right. Except for one major misconceptions. HP buffs like the courage line (of which daring is a part), work in two ways. If you don't have the buff up yet, it increases your max by a set amount, and increases your current by that same amount. If you already have the buff up, it just increases your current by that amount. Thus, it behaves exactly like a free heal spell. You don't click the old one off each time. If you did, it wouldn't actually ever gain you anything. You just keep recasting it.
Quote:
Player #2 who has to "med" casts Etherial Cleansing, sits down for 40 seconds or so to gain mana while it heals him, repeats again, has to sit a whole minute to get back the total of 300 mana he spent.
Eh? Sitting regen of a 50ish character (the average for the range this item is ideal for), is about 15 per tick. That means 20 tics, or 2 minutes to recover the mana spent for 2 castings of ethereal cleansing.
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Player #2 has healed the same amount of damage in the same period of time. The fact that he sat to "med" and you clicked buffs on and off is meaningless, you both had a minute and a half of downtime.
Yes and no. Daring "heals" 130hp per cast, thus it will take 7 casts to recover 800hp (more then 800 actually... 910). That's 14 ticks, a savings of 30% time.
Um... But wait! That's not all. Since it has a 10 second cast, you can time it easily to go off between 2 ticks (allowing you to get that second tick by sitting and medding, even without a mount). Thus, during that time you healed 910hp (14 ticks), you cast daring 7 times and got 7 meds in. That means you didn't just break even on mana, you gained 7*15=105 mana (a third of what you would have spent healing yourself with Ethereal Cleansing).
This allows you to use stuns and such during the fight (up to 100ish mana worth in that case), which will further reduce the amount of damage you take (and increase your kill rate).
Even without accounting for the mana recovery benefit, you've increased your solo kill rate by 30% just by using the helm. Think about it...
Quote:
But if you want to go blow 2k plat to do it, more power to ya. You are the ideal bazaar customer :)
Normally, I'd agree that there's lots of overpriced junk in the bazaar. This is not one of them though. The DW helm is probably the single most useful piece of gear a paladin can buy. When you look at it in terms of sustainable heal rate, it's huge:
Rate of heal with DW helm: 10.833 hp/sec
Rate of heal with Eth Cleansing: 6.666 hp/sec
That's ignoring that you'll gain mana using the DW helm and only stay even at that rate with Eth Cleansing. You could effectively decrease that heal rate by about 30% again if you want to recover the same mana you did with the DW helm (effectively adding half again to the number of ticks you have to recover to get the same mana). But I'll leave the extra medding numbers off for now.
Let's look at some more levels:
Light of Life: 2.5 hp/sec (fast cast)
Superior Healing: 5.830 hp/sec
Celestial Cleansing: 7.777 hp/sec
Touch of Nife: 6.250 hp/sec
Light of Nife: 5.312 hp/sec (fast cast)
Supernal Cleansing: 7.500 hp/sec (surprising actually...)
Um. Note that not a single spell paladins ever get will give them a heal rate faster then using the DW helm. And that's without accounting for the mana gain that you'll get using the DW helm versus medding back mana from casting spells. Accounting for the mana gain from DW helm we could simply multiple the heal rate by .66 to get a good approximation. This would mean that the best heal rate a paladin gets (Celestial Cleansing) comes out to 5.179.
Um... that makes healing with the DW helm more effective on a paladin (not using KEI), then a paladin with KEI (double mana regen rate) using self heals.
In otherwords, your argument is completely and totally false. The DW helm is clearly the most useful piece of gear a paladin can buy.
The reason higher level paladins stop using it has nothing to do with soloing rates. It's simply that it gets harder and harder to find anything worth soloing at those levels, and the extra AC/HP from the higher level buffs aren't worth losing just to increase that solo rate (which sucks past about 55 anyway). In a perfect world, where I know that I wont have to deal with anything but a specific set of mobs, and I know that I can solo them without requiring self heals during the fight using only daring as my HP/AC buff, then I'd still use the thing to solo at level 65. I don't, simply because that doesn't happen very often anymore...
But if I were in that situation, it would still be the most efficient way for me to self heal there is.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Mulamen wrote:
*sigh* If only they were quick ways to make plat :p
At the moment my main is 22nd and I got a meagre 2k in the bank -but I have no pressure to spend it on gear so I buy just TS components....
....but I guess these easy days will vanish with advancing in level :(
Quote:
Eh? Sitting regen of a 50ish character (the average for the range this item is ideal for), is about 15 per tick. That means 20 tics, or 2 minutes to recover the mana spent for 2 castings of ethereal cleansing.
Um... pre-50 med cap for a paladin is 185, or 19/20 per tick (1 per 10 med, +1 for sitting, not sure how the extra 5 is calculated). If you want to argue that you save 10 seconds with your method, that's fine. However the claim was not "save 10 seconds" it was "Does not need to med when soloing".
Quote:
Yes and no. Daring "heals" 130hp per cast, thus it will take 7 casts to recover 800hp (more then 800 actually... 910). That's 14 ticks, a savings of 30% time.
130 at 65, and if you are using a deepwater helm at 65 to heal yourself... well, I can't help you. But then again I'm sure lots of paladins solo at 65. At "50ish" its closer to 110.
Quote:
Um... But wait! That's not all. Since it has a 10 second cast, you can time it easily to go off between 2 ticks (allowing you to get that second tick by sitting and medding, even without a mount). Thus, during that time you healed 910hp (14 ticks), you cast daring 7 times and got 7 meds in. That means you didn't just break even on mana, you gained 7*15=105 mana (a third of what you would have spent healing yourself with Ethereal Cleansing).
But wait!, do you have any clue what you are talking about at all? Go try and sit down while waiting for the helm to cast. Since I know you won't, so I'll tell you what happens: "Your spell is interupted".
In other words, you have no idea what you are babbling about. If you need to console yourself that you spent 2k on an "uber item" that in reality isn't, or are trying to hype up the value so you can sell yours, thats fine. It doesn't change the fact that it doesn't increase your ability to solo in any meaningfull way.
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Anyone who buys deepwater (or singing steel or jaundiced or elder spirit or whatever) is nuts anyway :P
I have to disagree with you on this, and for two reasons - 1.) it saves you a spell slot and 2.) you don't have to sit down to prepare the spell.
As we know, sitting down can draw agro from a mob - and I would prefer not to sit down in certain areas or after certain situations just so I can get my str buff ready to cast on a member of the group if it wears off. I can remain standing, and just open inventory and change my equipment.
As I have not played any other class using any gear like that, I cannot speak for them, but as a shaman I find that the Jaundiced Vambraces are useful as an item that lets me rebuff the group if needed in say an LDON without the waste of my mana. No neededing to sit down, remove a spell from my slots just to get a buff ready. This means I'm more ready to stand up and cast one of my spells if a wanderer walks in.
Toasti. I play a paladin. I used the DW helm from level 45 to level 55. I know for a 100% fact that it literally doubled my kill rate during that time period. You can *guess* what it's effects are. I know.
It's just not that hard. Find a mob that you can kill without expending any mana during the fight (between 45 and 50, a paladin could use the undead in the Katta graveyard as a great test of this).
By doing this, we've eliminated all "other" mana expenses. We're comparing just how long it takes us to heal the damage we've taken and be back at the mana level we started with (FM in this case).
You do one test by casting your most mana efficient heal until you are at FH, and then medding until you are back at FM.
You do the other by clicking your DW helm over and over.
You will be back at FH and FM and ready to fight the next mob faster using the helm then the heals. Always. Every time. No exceptions. You are welcome to test this. The math says it will work. The real tests I've done say it will work. You can chose to believe otherwise, but that's your choice.
Um.. No. You probably wont use this at 65, but not because it's still not a faster way to heal. It's just not effective enough to offset the fact that you'd have to remove your own buffs to use it. It's really an annoyance factor.
Also. You obviously have no clue how to time ticks of mana regen. Let me go really slow for you:
You watch your icon thingie with the inventory open (some guis today may have it on the main screen). When it flips, a tick has occured and you just got some mana regen. You stand up and click your DW helm. It will take 10 seconds to finish. After 6 seconds, another tick will occur. You lose this because you're casting the spell. 4 seconds later, your spell ends. You sit down. 2 seconds after that, you get a tick of mana regen (12 seconds). Repeat the process as many times as needed.
Using this very simple method, you still get half your mana regen instead of *no* mana regen. That's huge.
Look. When you're obviously ignorant of how some items and game effects work (like timing mana regen ticks), please don't argue those facts with people who do. Is the DW helm an "uber" item? Nope. Not at all. But for the level range I mentioned, it's a huge benefit to a paladin. Those 10 levels are literally our best soloing levels. Not because we're magically more powerful during that time period, but because the DW helm makes us effective.
Um... And when you've outgrown it, you can sell the damn thing to the next pally who realizes its value. The DW helm has been pretty consistently in the 1-2k range for about 2 years now. End cost is very cheap for an item that is so useful...
Edited, Fri Mar 12 17:21:25 2004 by gbaji
It's just not that hard. Find a mob that you can kill without expending any mana during the fight (between 45 and 50, a paladin could use the undead in the Katta graveyard as a great test of this).
By doing this, we've eliminated all "other" mana expenses. We're comparing just how long it takes us to heal the damage we've taken and be back at the mana level we started with (FM in this case).
You do one test by casting your most mana efficient heal until you are at FH, and then medding until you are back at FM.
You do the other by clicking your DW helm over and over.
You will be back at FH and FM and ready to fight the next mob faster using the helm then the heals. Always. Every time. No exceptions. You are welcome to test this. The math says it will work. The real tests I've done say it will work. You can chose to believe otherwise, but that's your choice.
Um.. No. You probably wont use this at 65, but not because it's still not a faster way to heal. It's just not effective enough to offset the fact that you'd have to remove your own buffs to use it. It's really an annoyance factor.
Also. You obviously have no clue how to time ticks of mana regen. Let me go really slow for you:
You watch your icon thingie with the inventory open (some guis today may have it on the main screen). When it flips, a tick has occured and you just got some mana regen. You stand up and click your DW helm. It will take 10 seconds to finish. After 6 seconds, another tick will occur. You lose this because you're casting the spell. 4 seconds later, your spell ends. You sit down. 2 seconds after that, you get a tick of mana regen (12 seconds). Repeat the process as many times as needed.
Using this very simple method, you still get half your mana regen instead of *no* mana regen. That's huge.
Look. When you're obviously ignorant of how some items and game effects work (like timing mana regen ticks), please don't argue those facts with people who do. Is the DW helm an "uber" item? Nope. Not at all. But for the level range I mentioned, it's a huge benefit to a paladin. Those 10 levels are literally our best soloing levels. Not because we're magically more powerful during that time period, but because the DW helm makes us effective.
Um... And when you've outgrown it, you can sell the damn thing to the next pally who realizes its value. The DW helm has been pretty consistently in the 1-2k range for about 2 years now. End cost is very cheap for an item that is so useful...
Edited, Fri Mar 12 17:21:25 2004 by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Toast I have to agree with Gbaji, DW helm is the best item a pally can have from 45 - period. It does make soloing faster and it is more effective than getting kei and running to where ever your soloing.
from 45 my soloing method was :- If i can kill it and have 20% life left i can helm heal to full and go again. Without the helm i doubt i would have done this since i wouldn't have the patience to sit, get mana back, heal, sit, get mana back.
If memry serves i could regen 1 bub of mana when Helm healing 80% life <generally 20 casts or 3 mins 20 secs.> that would be enought for me to go pull another mob.
from 45 my soloing method was :- If i can kill it and have 20% life left i can helm heal to full and go again. Without the helm i doubt i would have done this since i wouldn't have the patience to sit, get mana back, heal, sit, get mana back.
If memry serves i could regen 1 bub of mana when Helm healing 80% life <generally 20 casts or 3 mins 20 secs.> that would be enought for me to go pull another mob.
Toast, show some respect. You have been owned.
You had better pay some attention to his posts, as he is quite clearly the more knowledgeable player of you two.
Or do you want Patrician to spell it out for you, too?
You had better pay some attention to his posts, as he is quite clearly the more knowledgeable player of you two.
Or do you want Patrician to spell it out for you, too?
Quote:
As we know, sitting down can draw agro from a mob - and I would prefer not to sit down in certain areas or after certain situations just so I can get my str buff ready to cast on a member of the group if it wears off.
Good point. Still wouldn't PAY for it, but in situations where sitting isn't desirable that can help.
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Toasti. I play a paladin. I used the DW helm from level 45 to level 55. I know for a 100% fact that it literally doubled my kill rate during that time period. You can *guess* what it's effects are. I know.
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Toast I have to agree with Gbaji, DW helm is the best item a pally can have from 45 - period. It does make soloing faster and it is more effective than getting kei and running to where ever your soloing.
Quote:
Toast, show some respect. You have been owned.
Lemme try spelling this out for those of you who don't like actually paying attention. I've said it TWICE now, but I guess that's not enough:
THE DW HELM DOES NOT ALLOW YOU TO NEVER HAVE DOWNTIME.
You all seem to be latching on to it's efficiency, the schmuck claimed, and I QUOTE:
Quote:
a paladin with a deepwater helm can solo without having to med.
I even tried making it clear what my point was:
Quote:
If you want to argue that you save 10 seconds with your method, that's fine. However the claim was not save 10 seconds it was "Does not need to med when soloing".
Standing around casting buffs, even if you want to try and time sitting for 2 seconds every other tick to squeeze every second out of it doesn't change the fact that the helm isn't going to get rid of having to med, your super secret elite sitting 2 seconds every 10 is still medding.
Do you understand yet? Do I need to spell it out again? If you want to sit down in game with a watch and have a little contest over whether clicking buffs and sitting/standing for 2 minutes will heal you 25% more efficiently, thats fine... BUT THE HELM WILL NOT MAKE IT SO YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DOWNTIME SOLOING. It just changes the downtime from medding and casting a heal or 3 to a basterdized shaman canni dance.
Edited, Sat Mar 13 09:01:29 2004 by Toasticle
Edited, Sat Mar 13 09:02:20 2004 by Toasticle
Wow, what is it about these boards that people who don't agree with something feel thier best bet is to make personal attacks. Thanks for calling me a schmuck toast, I appreciate that.
Now let me explain MY definition of med. To me you're medding when you sit down doing nothing in order to regenerate HP or mana. If between pulls I click my DW helm 4 or 5 times in order to get back my HP, I don't consider myself medding as I'm doing something. I think your problem with my post was a difference in definitions. Fine...I'll accept your definition. No, you cannot hunt without medding using the DW helm. You are completely right. You do have to click the helm between pulls. However, my point was, with a DW helm you can hunt without having to sit and regenerate mana or HP for an extended period of time. That to me is medding, and that is the situation I can avoid using my DW helm.
And, if you didn't notice, not once in my entire post did I call you any names, make any derrogatory remarks about you, despite the fact that we don't agree
Now let me explain MY definition of med. To me you're medding when you sit down doing nothing in order to regenerate HP or mana. If between pulls I click my DW helm 4 or 5 times in order to get back my HP, I don't consider myself medding as I'm doing something. I think your problem with my post was a difference in definitions. Fine...I'll accept your definition. No, you cannot hunt without medding using the DW helm. You are completely right. You do have to click the helm between pulls. However, my point was, with a DW helm you can hunt without having to sit and regenerate mana or HP for an extended period of time. That to me is medding, and that is the situation I can avoid using my DW helm.
And, if you didn't notice, not once in my entire post did I call you any names, make any derrogatory remarks about you, despite the fact that we don't agree
Quote:
Good point. Still wouldn't PAY for it, but in situations where sitting isn't desirable that can help.
Well, we were talking about how fishing was nerfed after being able to make large amounts of plat safely...
I had disposable income :)
I found this out after 20 mins waiting in the wrong places for the boat, i was not a happy bunny, i had never been on the boat to fish, i have not felt this upset since the aqua goblins in BB got nerfed, boo hoo.
It was good while it lasted. The money those fishies brought in almost paid for my level 61 spells. Almost. Even the souffles I made from the fish brought decent money from the vendors while I worked on baking skill ups.
Yup, boring, but hey, I could watch tv, hit the fishing button every few seconds, chat with other people on the dock (which was quite enjoyable) and make some money. It was a pleasant break from killing things.
It too good to last. And it didn't.
Yup, boring, but hey, I could watch tv, hit the fishing button every few seconds, chat with other people on the dock (which was quite enjoyable) and make some money. It was a pleasant break from killing things.
It too good to last. And it didn't.
nothing like that ever does - note to self: next time there is an expansion and somethin kool comes along, stay up till 2am every night to make the most of it
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Anyone who buys deepwater (or singing steel or jaundiced or elder spirit or whatever) is nuts anyway :P
Helm effect is Eye of Zomm. What's one of the major bard roles? Puller. Who could believe a puller could find a use for a clicky Eye of Zomm. That's just crazy talk.
Plus it's the easiest way to see if Trakanon is up.. heh
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
i agree, i am lvl 56 and stil use my elder spiritists stuff (actually only the DoT vambraces), it might not seem a lot but you'd be suprised how usefull a 34-per-tick DoT can help when im soloing in nadox.
Toasticle:
Considering you said:
In other words you thought that the technique involved cancelling the buff and evidently have very little idea how it is used it is a bit rich for you to argue the toss with people who have used it. Especially Gbaji who can be counted on to have analysed the efficiency.
Gbaji:
I didn't understand the figures you quoted.
I think you have factored in the med time somewhere since Sup heal is obviously approx 600hp in 4 secs or 150hp/sec pure healing rate. Given your "15 mana per tick" I'm guessing that you then allow time to regen the 250 mana lost casting. 100 secs or so. If I've guessed wrong please correct me.
One consideration is presumably the level at which the daring buff is surpassed by your self-buffs to the point where mana gain is outweighed by increased damage/reduced hp.
I know it's been annoying in the past when Paladins I've been grouped with have insisted on "saving me mana" by giving themselves a hat-job instead of having proper buffs.
Could I add to the range of the scorned 45 clickies the Tolans gear. The bracer is a great aid to rangers until they get EQ, and the BP! A chance to gate and keep your clothes on! What ranger wouldn't like that?
On a similar but different note I just got rid of my Greaves of Forbidden Rites with their 105 point group heal and 12 second cast because it felt like I would be better medding for a decent heal than standing for 12 secs for a silly one. Using the Gbaji method (If I understood it) the cast cost me nothing and consumed 2 ticks or 30 mana. I can't heal much with 30 mana so perhaps it was a mistake.
Considering you said:
Quote:
Instead of medding, you cast daring and cancel it over and over, gaining 100 health each time.
In other words you thought that the technique involved cancelling the buff and evidently have very little idea how it is used it is a bit rich for you to argue the toss with people who have used it. Especially Gbaji who can be counted on to have analysed the efficiency.
Gbaji:
I didn't understand the figures you quoted.
Quote:
Rate of heal with DW helm: 10.833 hp/sec
Rate of heal with Eth Cleansing: 6.666 hp/sec
Light of Life: 2.5 hp/sec (fast cast)
Superior Healing: 5.830 hp/sec
Celestial Cleansing: 7.777 hp/sec
Touch of Nife: 6.250 hp/sec
Light of Nife: 5.312 hp/sec (fast cast)
Supernal Cleansing: 7.500 hp/sec (surprising actually...)
Rate of heal with Eth Cleansing: 6.666 hp/sec
Light of Life: 2.5 hp/sec (fast cast)
Superior Healing: 5.830 hp/sec
Celestial Cleansing: 7.777 hp/sec
Touch of Nife: 6.250 hp/sec
Light of Nife: 5.312 hp/sec (fast cast)
Supernal Cleansing: 7.500 hp/sec (surprising actually...)
I think you have factored in the med time somewhere since Sup heal is obviously approx 600hp in 4 secs or 150hp/sec pure healing rate. Given your "15 mana per tick" I'm guessing that you then allow time to regen the 250 mana lost casting. 100 secs or so. If I've guessed wrong please correct me.
One consideration is presumably the level at which the daring buff is surpassed by your self-buffs to the point where mana gain is outweighed by increased damage/reduced hp.
I know it's been annoying in the past when Paladins I've been grouped with have insisted on "saving me mana" by giving themselves a hat-job instead of having proper buffs.
Could I add to the range of the scorned 45 clickies the Tolans gear. The bracer is a great aid to rangers until they get EQ, and the BP! A chance to gate and keep your clothes on! What ranger wouldn't like that?
On a similar but different note I just got rid of my Greaves of Forbidden Rites with their 105 point group heal and 12 second cast because it felt like I would be better medding for a decent heal than standing for 12 secs for a silly one. Using the Gbaji method (If I understood it) the cast cost me nothing and consumed 2 ticks or 30 mana. I can't heal much with 30 mana so perhaps it was a mistake.
Wherever I go - there I am.
Yup Cobra. You left it out of the quote, but I said sustained heal rate. See, when soloing, all that really matters is sustained rate. Sure. That wizard can dish out a huge amount of damage in a very short time, but then he's got to sit down and med for several minutes. It's not correct to just look at the burst rate. When calculating the overall effectiveness of spell effects, you always have to look at mana rate as well.
The best way to do this is calculate the time it takes to use plus the time it takes to recover the mana you spent. In the calcs above, I pretty much just left out casting time (since it's pretty irrelevant). I also left out HoT heal rates (also irrelevant). All that really matters is how long it will take to recover the mana you spent casting the spell.
Even at 20 per tick (I'm actually not positive that mana regen is a straight (medskill/10), but I'll accept that), the DW helm still provides a greater sustained heal rate then any other heal spell a paladin gets. Ever.
The only arguably faster/better method is when using KEI. A paladin with KEI on will recover mana pretty quickly while fighting. This, combined with his HoTs is pretty darn effective. However, you're paying for each cast of KEI. Depending on how long it actually takes you per fight, KEI+HoT is only just about as effective as using a DW helm. At 50pp a pop (unless you're a cheap bastadge), it doesn't take that many hunting trips before you could have just bought the DW helm instead. You get the added bonus of not having to run back to town to get one recast.
Probably the most efficient soloing spot between level 45 and 50 for a paladin is still the Katta graveyard (amazingly good solo exp there!). You can literally get a 1/4th to a 1/3rd of a blue per kill, and get a kill every 2 or 3 minutes (about 50% fighting and 50% recovering). That's *fast* for a melee character soloing. That's with a DW helm, sustained. You could probably do that todasy with KEI and Ethereal Healing (that spell didn't exist when I was that level), but after 3 hours, you've got to run back to PoK for a refresh. If you just buy the helm, you can sustain that kill rate and just sit there for a few long game sessions and just grind through those levels. You don't have to go back to anywhere. You'll never be bothered by anyone. Paladins get very few level ranges where they're actually good at soloing. This is one of them. Take advantage of that fact.
And hey! I still carry the thing around. Raid just wiped? Use this to pump health into that shaman so he can canni for buff mana. It's a useful item. Most of the clicky buff items from the old Kunark era gear is useful. The DW gaunts are useful for pulling (cancel magic's not a bad pull spell at all). The DW bracer is also nice for pulling (in some situations). I know that many other classes' also find uses for their kunark gear. They're not Uber by any stretch, but generally well worth the cost IMO...
The best way to do this is calculate the time it takes to use plus the time it takes to recover the mana you spent. In the calcs above, I pretty much just left out casting time (since it's pretty irrelevant). I also left out HoT heal rates (also irrelevant). All that really matters is how long it will take to recover the mana you spent casting the spell.
Even at 20 per tick (I'm actually not positive that mana regen is a straight (medskill/10), but I'll accept that), the DW helm still provides a greater sustained heal rate then any other heal spell a paladin gets. Ever.
The only arguably faster/better method is when using KEI. A paladin with KEI on will recover mana pretty quickly while fighting. This, combined with his HoTs is pretty darn effective. However, you're paying for each cast of KEI. Depending on how long it actually takes you per fight, KEI+HoT is only just about as effective as using a DW helm. At 50pp a pop (unless you're a cheap bastadge), it doesn't take that many hunting trips before you could have just bought the DW helm instead. You get the added bonus of not having to run back to town to get one recast.
Probably the most efficient soloing spot between level 45 and 50 for a paladin is still the Katta graveyard (amazingly good solo exp there!). You can literally get a 1/4th to a 1/3rd of a blue per kill, and get a kill every 2 or 3 minutes (about 50% fighting and 50% recovering). That's *fast* for a melee character soloing. That's with a DW helm, sustained. You could probably do that todasy with KEI and Ethereal Healing (that spell didn't exist when I was that level), but after 3 hours, you've got to run back to PoK for a refresh. If you just buy the helm, you can sustain that kill rate and just sit there for a few long game sessions and just grind through those levels. You don't have to go back to anywhere. You'll never be bothered by anyone. Paladins get very few level ranges where they're actually good at soloing. This is one of them. Take advantage of that fact.
And hey! I still carry the thing around. Raid just wiped? Use this to pump health into that shaman so he can canni for buff mana. It's a useful item. Most of the clicky buff items from the old Kunark era gear is useful. The DW gaunts are useful for pulling (cancel magic's not a bad pull spell at all). The DW bracer is also nice for pulling (in some situations). I know that many other classes' also find uses for their kunark gear. They're not Uber by any stretch, but generally well worth the cost IMO...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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