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Primary vs Secondary weapons......Follow

#1 Feb 28 2004 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a level 52 Ranger and own these three weapons...

Velium Gemmed Long Sword
http://www.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=26880

Long Sword of the Ykesha
http://www.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=23618

and
Ornate Long Sword of Slaughter
http://www.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22042

I'm trying to figure out the best combination to have them in.

Should I have VGLS primary because it has the best ratio and a reasonable speed or the LSoY because it's faster? Should I even bother with the OLSoS? I was using it in the off-hand before I got the VGLS.

I know the normal way of thinking is fastest weapon in the primary hand but the two weapons aren't far apart. Bonus damage doesn't go to the secondary weapon(without getting GoD AA's which is a new thing I believe) so I used the OLSoS which has a nice ratio despite the long delay.

Grateful for any feedback, thanks a lot.
#2 Feb 28 2004 at 6:07 AM Rating: Good
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The key when calculating which to use where is to first calculate modal damage with and without damage bonus. Modal damage is 2x base plus bonus, divided by delay. At level 52, you have a 1h damage bonus of 9, so they work out like this:

VGLS:

onhand: 41/20 = 2.050
offhand: 32/20 = 1.600

LSoY:

onhand: 33/17 = 1.941
offhand: 24/17 = 1.411

OLSoS:

onhand: 55/34 = 1.617
offhand: 46/34 = 1.352


Since onhand hits will occur more frequently then offhand hits (everything else being equal, you have to make a DW check for each offhand attempt prior to even rolling for a hit), you want the highest modal damage in your onhand. Then the highest offhand ratio that's left in the offhand. Note, that usually, this will mean that faster weapons will have better modal damage in the onhand (due to the damage bonus being factored in), and the highest raw ratio (which *can* be a slow weapon) will always do the best in the offhand.

In the case of these three weapons, this isn't the case at all. Your fastest weapon is the second best in both on and offhand modal calculations, so it makes this a bit more difficult. You could play it safe and put the VGLS in primary and the LSoY in secondary. However, you'll note that there's only a 0.109 difference between the two weapons in the main hand (a 5.6% increase in damage from the LSoY to the VGLS), but a pretty significant 0.189 difference between them in offhand (which works out to a 13% increase in offhand damage, about twice as much).

The key then is to figure out the real ratio of onhand to offhand hits. I'm actually not that sure about DW ratios. But based on the numbers generated here, if you get a DW swing more then 50% of the time, then put the LSoY in primary and VGLS in secondary. If DW rate is less then 50%, reverse them. The idea is that you're adding up both on and offhand swings. The modal damage calculation already takes into account delay, so we only need to worry about DW rate. It's the "weight" provided to each side of the equation. You can even think of it as a constant if you want:

(1*(onhand modal)( + ((DW rate) * (offhand modal)) = total modal.

Example: 75% DW rate would yield:

VGLS primary, LSoY secondary
(1 * 2.050) + ( .75 * 1.411) = 3.108

LSoY primary, VGLS secondary
(1 * 1.941) + ( .75 * 1.600) = 3.141=

Example: 25% DW rate would yeild:

VGLS primary, LSoY secondary
(1 * 2.050) + ( .25 * 1.411) = 2.402

LSoY primary, VGLS secondary
(1 * 1.941) + ( .25 * 1.600) = 2.341


Somewhere in between these two numbers will be the exact DW rate point at which you'd want to swap the weapons.

Someone else will have to provide the DW swing rate number. The only character I have with DW is a level 13 rogue that I started for fun and haven't played in like a year, so I'm about the worst person to ask about it. With these particular weapons though, it's the determining factor for deciding which weapon to put where.
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#3 Feb 28 2004 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Apart from the nice math there is also the issue of situation.

There may not be a "best" combination for all situations. When tanking or soloing the maximised damage may be best achieved with the faster weapons but in a group situation where you are assisting the taunt from those weapons may be more than a warrior MA can deal with and the slower but good ratio weapon might be better in main.

I even switch to 2HS if necessary. The 50's are a period where people's gear varies quite a lot. What haste each member has can make an awful difference.
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#4 Feb 28 2004 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I have always wondered how bane and or elemental damage bonuses calculate in to these equations.

If Kerik was using something like a Disemboweler 12dmg 20dly with +3 magic dmg, would the modal damage be (12*2+3/20)= 27/20 = 1.35 or would it be (((12+3)*2)/20) = 30/20 = 1.5 ?

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#5 Feb 28 2004 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
My crusty memory says DW and DA chance is skill/400, so 200 skill is a 50% chance. This is from pre-kunark however, so that formula may have been changed, and I do not remember if stats modified it.

I can't remember if this was revealed by Verant at the time or from many many log parses from FoH or something, but the skill/400 stuck in my head because at the time my new level 20 ranger had like 60 DW and 21 DA skill, and I was kind of depressed that it was such a low chance for quad attacks :)
#6 Feb 28 2004 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Got to agree with Cobra, you have to be mindful of how much hate you are going to be generating compared to how much the MA can. If you constantly taking aggro away from the MA. I would either wait longer before you start attacking or go to a slower combination of wpns. Plus with a higher delay wpn you will be doing a higher base damage, but with less risk of getting hit. I also agree that a 2hs with a high delay and high damage can be very effective.

My answer would be keep all 3 and switch them around based on the situation.

I have a 51 Warrior and he carries 4-1hs wpns, 2 with procs and 2 without, a fast 2hs, and a slower but huge damage 2hs. He will use them based on what he is doing.
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#7 Feb 28 2004 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow, thanks for the great info. If 400/skill is the DW percentage then with my skill of 216, I should be DWing 54% of the time. I don't think that's your chace to QUAD hit though because your Double Attack skill comes into play and I doubt it's 100% chance. I was always a little disappointed with my chance to do quads compared to most other DW/DA classes. Monks Rule in those with Warior being next and Ranger following behind.

Anyway, with that info to add VGLS primary I'm getting total Modal of 2.812 and with them swapped 2.805 It's not a big difference but I'll go with VGLS primary. For those group occasions I have a Windblade I can whip out. More often than not though I'm 2-boxing with my Enchanter so getting all the aggro isn't an issue.

Thanks for all the feedback, was a lot better info that I'd expected. :D (wasn't expecting such specific formulas, just a lot of people giving opinions.)

Editing this for the person who asked about the Disembowler. I used to use one myself, and I'm not certain how the formula goes, but I'd use it more in the lower levels than the 50+ game. Magic damage is resistable and even with my Chanter debuffing MR, if you're in a raid fighting critters much higher level than you then most of the magic damage will be resist and as a 12/20 weapon it's not very good. Better to whip out another weapon. When the magic isn't being resist at all I DO believe it's effectively a 15/20 weapon which is very nice.

Edited, Sat Feb 28 09:53:50 2004 by KerikDaven
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