Loot Systems, Fixed cost- vs discretionary- or bid- systemsFollow

Of course, the biggest problem with that system is the very first step:

"Assign point values to items"


Who assigns the points? How is that determined? How often is your guild going to update the table with items and raid points? When a new expansion comes out, and an item with a previously high number of points is suddenly not nearly as valuable (cause there's an items that drops like rain in the new expansion that's just as good), do you go back and adjust the point cost? Again. Who maintains that? Have you looked at the number of items in the game? I wouldn't wish that job on anyone...

Um... And what about items that are more useful to one class or another? Do they both pay the same points?

IMO, static points systems are nightmares to maintain. If I was going to go with a points system at all, I'd use bidding instead. That way, the items are bid upon based on relative worth to the people, at that raid, right then. Sure, sometimes someone will get a great deal, and sometimes they'll pay through the nose for an item. However, a bidding system also tends to even things out for a guild. If there's only one rogue on a raid, he's going to get any rogue items for a minimum bid (say 1 point, or whatever your smallest denomination is). That might just encourage more players to bring a rogue next time.

Um... If you have "alliances" of players in your guild who bid deliberately to give themselves cheap items and make non-aliance players pay more, then maybe you need to think really hard about finding a better guild? Just a suggestion...

Also. While you make a point of distiguishing this from a bidding system, you don't define exactly how the loot is awarded. What if two people have points and are willing to spend them on the item? Who gets it? You're back to either a loot council to make that decision, or bidding among the interested parties. So basically, your system has the worst of all aspects of loot awarding systems. You have to maintain both a list of loot and their value in points *and* the points each member has accumulated. After all that you still have to either bid or assign loot in the oh so uncommon instance that two people want the same drop (isn't that the only reason we need loot systems?)


No system is perfect. There's always going to be inequities. I just think that if we're going to have those imperfections, you may as well use a system that's imperfect but requires minimal amounts of recordkeeping. Bidding works just fine for that. You have to track the points people have (and have spent and earned), but that's it. Everything else is handled dynamically as you raid. Not perfectly fair, but fair enough for most people.


Personally, I prefer another system you hate. Assigned loot. Again. It's not perfect, however, a loot council can track loot assignments with no more record keeping required then tracking points earned/spent required by the other two systems. They also have the ability to make "intelligent" choices and avoid the unfairnesses that easily occur with both bidding and assigned point systems. They can track how long it's been since *you* have recieved an item and put some weight into that. They can actually look at the classes that the item will be most useful for (and benefit the guild the most by being in the hands of) and give weight to that factor. Finally, if we're talking about a guild here, they can weigh in factors not raid-specific: A character that spends significant amount of time working on tradeskills for the guild (making earings of solstice at cost is a great example). Characters that spend time helping get guild members keyed so that the raid you are on is possible in the first place. Each member in an emp raid only needed to camp in SSra long enough to get himself one key. But if each of them was helped along by a small group of characters who made a point of forming groups just to get others their keys, shouldn't that count a hell of a lot towards who gets first loot? Yeah. I think it should...


I just find it amusing because most raid focused guilds use either assigned or bidding systems. I've not heard of any that attempts to maintain a fixed point system. Minimum bids on items is about the closest I've seen. It's just too much overhead that's really not needed...


I'm also confused about your complain about giving "special favor" to some classes. Um... On many raids, you may need a very specific (and high!) number of clerics for example. Let's say I have a rogue and a cleric, both of level to attend the raid, but the raid needs clerics. However, there's some really nice rogue items, but not many cleric items. Also, I know that if I play my rogue, I'll be one of maybe 2 or 3 rogues, wheras there may be as many as 8 or 10 characters competing for drops with me if I play the cleric. You've got to provide some incentive for people to play paticular classes on a raid. Sometimes that means awarding bonus points for those classes.

It's easy to complain about that when you just play one of the crowd in the raid. Your job is basically to show up, don't ***** up, and reap the raid points. Once you play a MA, or puller, or cleric in a CH chain, or some other "critical" role on a raid, in which your performance makes or breaks the raid, I think you'll change your tune. It's not easy. Not at all. There's more to a raid then just showing up (attendance). Most good systems take that into account. Your's seems aimed specifically at ignoring it. I think that's a really bad idea...

This thread is a split of from a thread where i looked for input for estimation formular i have been working on to ensure values assigned to items are consistent. It was turning into a DKP vs bid vs dictate thread, thats why i started this thread. Other thread is here.



In my system people pay raid points according to most usefull class. If you claim a melee item as a caster, you're gonna pay melee price.



Person with highest current points.



I doubt that it is this explicit in any guilds, but in most guilds you will more sympathy for some members than from others, that may affect how you bid even if it is not a conscious descition, this will help unbalance system and undermine trust in system.



You struck a nerve there, one way to solve it would be to add key components to loot system. So farming keys becomes a point farm. My guild had a bid system during Ssraa farming but we still awarded points for each key part obtained by a group and im sad to say that it was what it took to keep hardcore players motivated in keeping helping less active players get their keys.

I forgot to mention one important advantage with dkp systems. When a mob drops something good for another class everyone is happy cos they get more points for raid, in discretionary systems and bid systems motivation for going after mobs that doesnt drop loot for some classes might discourage some people a bit.

Regards Aknok

I stated elsewere - if i wanna make money i go Bazaar not LDoN. Today I left the group after our Leader/Tank tauned creeps with his bow like there was no tommorrow and the cleric died during a desperate fight (the tank pulled 3 red and 1 darkblue conning as one bunch *lol*) while someone else lost connection during that very fight.

As the leader seemed not to mind both I left and told them I didn't mind my share of the loot. Heard later they got all killed once or twice during that adventure and did not end it successfully. I think 2 bulbs of xp outrun 60p loot+items.

Eh? Not harsh at all. Just truth. However, as long as you don't have that sort assigning the loot, there's not a problem. If you do, leave the guild. There's just as many folks who are more "giving" to others then taking for themselves. There's an even greater number of people who have a pretty good idea of what they do in relation to others.

Additionally, as I was trying to point out, a DKP system may not always accurately reflect the "value" a character brings to a guild. It certainly is not an accurate reflection of the benefit a particular item might have for the guild in one character's hands versus another. DKP systems can make attempts to account for this, but the more you try to do that, the more subjective the point awarding becomes. Eventually, it's just as subjective as assigned loot, except the decisions are being made behind the scenes a bit more.

If all you're looking at is a group of people who do nothing but raid together (or completely separate raids from anything else they do together), then DKP systems work perfectly. All that matters is attendance and performance on raids. Clearly then, earning points is what should earn you loot. However, all one needs do is look around at the "real world" to see that DKP models while "fair" aren't followed much anywhere.

How many people, even ones working at the same job with the same title, earn the exact same salary? Why is that? Ever worked somewhere where bonuses are regularly given out? Same thing. If your work is a raid, and the profits your company makes is the "loot", the analogy to DKP would be that everyone gets the exact same share of that loot (salary). Um... That doesn't happen. At least nowhere that I've ever heard of. In the real world, salaries and bonuses are decided in a method much more analgous to a loot council then to DKP.

Obviously, contributions in EQ aren't going to be as wide as those in the real world. You may very well have the equivalents of a 1st level novice player and a 65th level vetran working at the same company (and would expect rewards to be relative to that differece). That just doesn't happen in EQ though, so it's expected that the rewards are going to be much more equal. However, the assignment method is still valid if we're going to follow the analogy.


Dunno. I'm not trying to change you mind or anything. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot more justification for assigned loot systems then most people think. We use them all the time, and they do work most of the time. Certainly, you hear about the abuses of the system both in EQ and in real life. We've all heard about bosses that give favorable review and bonuses to the flirtatious assistant (or worse, assistant turned girlfriend!), just as we've all heard about the GM who makes sure that himself and his friends (who are all his officers as well) get the lions share of the loot on raids. While those things do happen, they don't happen nearly as often as people think. I really do think you'd be surprised just how well an assigned loot system can work in a guild. You just need a modicrum of honest people, and open communication. It really does work...

Loot is always a potentially touchy subject. It's along the same lines as comparing salaries... bad for morale when it gets out of hand.

We use officer assigned loot. The other two Time guilds on our server use DKP, one bidding system and one fixed cost.

Talking to my friends in both guilds I prefer the way we do it, but if we were to go with a point system I'd want fixed cost. In the bidding guild ONE person hoarded points and walked away with TWO Quarm loots off of their first kill. Talk about drama, oh yes.

Our officers are pretty open about how loot calls are made, with the caveat that it's an art, not a science, and that people will sometimes disagree with calls. But since we have a fairly small, tight guild, we can *usually* swallow the occasional disappointment and get on with things. No Time loot this rotation, probably due next week. /shrug

The thing I dislike about point systems is the potential for good gear that absolutely would upgrade someone being allowed to rot. That doesn't happen to us, at least it hasn't yet.